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On April 03 2019 18:40 BerserkSword wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 01:28 MockHamill wrote:On April 02 2019 22:06 BerserkSword wrote:On April 02 2019 03:43 MockHamill wrote:On April 02 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:On April 01 2019 04:58 MockHamill wrote:On April 01 2019 03:40 BerserkSword wrote:On March 31 2019 23:05 MockHamill wrote:On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote:
I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well. Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference. Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors. My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out. Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss. How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high) As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage. I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals). Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it. What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors. The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15) I have only encountered this a couple of times. Last time I teleported on top of the disruptors, yamoted all of them, lost all of BCs to tempest, moved in with my army after the disruptors were gone and killed his army. The time before that I think I transitioned to BCs a little bit too late so I had only 3 or 4. I then started teleporting BC into mineral lines while sending ghost to nuking other expansions and won by hitting his economy instead of attacking his army directly. So far this has not been a large problem. The real problem is securing a 3rd on time when going mech in TvP. Once in the late game with a good economy I think Terran is at least equal to Protoss, maybe even stronger. I completely agree with your last paragraph. What I still don't get is how you move in to beat the protoss ground army with mech after you lose all BCs. Unless the protoss player is dumb and tries to engage an established mech position. Otherwise, gateway warp ins and robo units should steamroll and out maneuver terran mech without BC liberator support unless I'm missing something here. it would probably help if i actually try it or see it in action Ground mech is actually stronger than Protoss in a straight up battle. The reason people experience it otherwise is because mech often dies in the midgame where Protoss have a significant unit lead. So most battles people experience is when the Protoss army have a much higher army value to do factories and armories costing so much resources. Once in late game it evens out though and Terrans ground army beats Protoss ground army. Which is why almost every Protoss player start to mix in air. Before the Tempest and Carrier nerf this was almost an auto-loss for Terran but now when Thors actually counters air decently this is no longer the case. But I think the main reasons we will still not see mech on higher levels are: 1. Really hard to take a 3rd on time. 2. Mech is really weak vs Protoss in the midgame until you get both enough tanks and enough buffer units. 3. Warp-prisms. 4. Really hard to balance the anti-ground to anti-air ratio correctly. If the ratio is off for even one battle you typically lose the game. Yes - I acknowledge the fact that mech is stronger than protoss ground head to head in a straight up fight. In fact, the same could be said about almost any Terran composition. Pound for pound, terran units are usually stronger and will win in a straight up fight. That said, I still dont see how it's a viable strategy unless the players are in diamond or lower. You yourself gave most of the reasons it's pretty unviable in higher level play. Like you said, your economy will be behind the protoss' as per point 1. Mech needs a critical mass to beat something like immortal chargelot based army as per point 2. Warp prisms will allow the protoss to constantly outmaneuver you and run circles around you, as well as of course being able to replenish their army faster than your slow ass mech production (exacerbated by point 1 - you will usually have a weaker economy) So basically, mech is always at a disadvantage against protoss. Even if youre able to sacrifice battlecruisers, the most expensive unit in the game, just to kill disruptors, and then proceed to try and push, a smart protoss player will just stall you with hit and run tactics as well as warp in units to devastate your bases while your slow army is stuck on the map trying to push. And then if you manage to wipe out his army, he will be able to warp in wave after wave of gateway units with his superior economy to hold you off while he did damage at your bases It's almost the same scenario as when a two base terran is trying to move out with a timing attack. sure, your tanks and marines will beat the protoss army if the protoss army decides to go head first into tanks that are already sieged up. but that's almost never what they do. they usually pick off marines with blink stalkers as youre trying to move across the map, while having a few units in the back either picking off reinforcements or trying to kill workers. when you finally hit their base, your army is whittled down while they loaded up on shield batteries and are ready to warp in reinforcements with their superior economy
I just started playing the game after 4 years off and i switched to mech against protoss and have yet to lose to a diamond protoss and the games are wildly lopsided. I lost to one masters protoss who got a huge early lead because my widow mines were out of place against his oracles. I think Mech is perfectly fine all the way up to masters level. I can speak to that much.
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keep getting connected vs 300-500 more mmr than me opponents so demorolizing, i was 4.7k now im 4.6k, and last opponent was barcode 5.4k terran... out of last 16games i won 4... the funniest part is when i got connected vs 4.7k zerg, i lost the game, i check his actually mmr its 5.2k..he played unranked.. does ladder really thinks im ready to face oppoents with so much higher mmr than me... bs srsly
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Not sure if this is a question people can answer in general or if I would need a replay, but how do people secure a third base when opening battle cruiser rush into a battle mech (cyclone hellion) transition? I find that if the first BC and first hellion run by (with 4 or 6 hellions) doesn’t do significant damage that a lot of the time they just walk across the map with mass hydra and kill my third while I’m trying to establish it. (Level of play here is around 3000 MMR gold 1 / plat 3 opponents usually)
Edit: just to provide context it’s the build from this article https://terrancraft.com/2019/01/05/tvz-evolving-mech-style-in-4-7-1/
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On April 06 2019 22:48 truescorpio14 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2019 18:40 BerserkSword wrote:On April 03 2019 01:28 MockHamill wrote:On April 02 2019 22:06 BerserkSword wrote:On April 02 2019 03:43 MockHamill wrote:On April 02 2019 00:32 BerserkSword wrote:On April 01 2019 04:58 MockHamill wrote:On April 01 2019 03:40 BerserkSword wrote:On March 31 2019 23:05 MockHamill wrote:On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote:
I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well. Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference. Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors. My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out. Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss. How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high) As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage. I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals). Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it. What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors. The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15) I have only encountered this a couple of times. Last time I teleported on top of the disruptors, yamoted all of them, lost all of BCs to tempest, moved in with my army after the disruptors were gone and killed his army. The time before that I think I transitioned to BCs a little bit too late so I had only 3 or 4. I then started teleporting BC into mineral lines while sending ghost to nuking other expansions and won by hitting his economy instead of attacking his army directly. So far this has not been a large problem. The real problem is securing a 3rd on time when going mech in TvP. Once in the late game with a good economy I think Terran is at least equal to Protoss, maybe even stronger. I completely agree with your last paragraph. What I still don't get is how you move in to beat the protoss ground army with mech after you lose all BCs. Unless the protoss player is dumb and tries to engage an established mech position. Otherwise, gateway warp ins and robo units should steamroll and out maneuver terran mech without BC liberator support unless I'm missing something here. it would probably help if i actually try it or see it in action Ground mech is actually stronger than Protoss in a straight up battle. The reason people experience it otherwise is because mech often dies in the midgame where Protoss have a significant unit lead. So most battles people experience is when the Protoss army have a much higher army value to do factories and armories costing so much resources. Once in late game it evens out though and Terrans ground army beats Protoss ground army. Which is why almost every Protoss player start to mix in air. Before the Tempest and Carrier nerf this was almost an auto-loss for Terran but now when Thors actually counters air decently this is no longer the case. But I think the main reasons we will still not see mech on higher levels are: 1. Really hard to take a 3rd on time. 2. Mech is really weak vs Protoss in the midgame until you get both enough tanks and enough buffer units. 3. Warp-prisms. 4. Really hard to balance the anti-ground to anti-air ratio correctly. If the ratio is off for even one battle you typically lose the game. Yes - I acknowledge the fact that mech is stronger than protoss ground head to head in a straight up fight. In fact, the same could be said about almost any Terran composition. Pound for pound, terran units are usually stronger and will win in a straight up fight. That said, I still dont see how it's a viable strategy unless the players are in diamond or lower. You yourself gave most of the reasons it's pretty unviable in higher level play. Like you said, your economy will be behind the protoss' as per point 1. Mech needs a critical mass to beat something like immortal chargelot based army as per point 2. Warp prisms will allow the protoss to constantly outmaneuver you and run circles around you, as well as of course being able to replenish their army faster than your slow ass mech production (exacerbated by point 1 - you will usually have a weaker economy) So basically, mech is always at a disadvantage against protoss. Even if youre able to sacrifice battlecruisers, the most expensive unit in the game, just to kill disruptors, and then proceed to try and push, a smart protoss player will just stall you with hit and run tactics as well as warp in units to devastate your bases while your slow army is stuck on the map trying to push. And then if you manage to wipe out his army, he will be able to warp in wave after wave of gateway units with his superior economy to hold you off while he did damage at your bases It's almost the same scenario as when a two base terran is trying to move out with a timing attack. sure, your tanks and marines will beat the protoss army if the protoss army decides to go head first into tanks that are already sieged up. but that's almost never what they do. they usually pick off marines with blink stalkers as youre trying to move across the map, while having a few units in the back either picking off reinforcements or trying to kill workers. when you finally hit their base, your army is whittled down while they loaded up on shield batteries and are ready to warp in reinforcements with their superior economy I just started playing the game after 4 years off and i switched to mech against protoss and have yet to lose to a diamond protoss and the games are wildly lopsided. I lost to one masters protoss who got a huge early lead because my widow mines were out of place against his oracles. I think Mech is perfectly fine all the way up to masters level. I can speak to that much.
I agree. That's why I said in my last post "I dont see how it's a viable strategy unless the players are diamond or lower"
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On April 12 2019 03:44 General_Winter wrote:Not sure if this is a question people can answer in general or if I would need a replay, but how do people secure a third base when opening battle cruiser rush into a battle mech (cyclone hellion) transition? I find that if the first BC and first hellion run by (with 4 or 6 hellions) doesn’t do significant damage that a lot of the time they just walk across the map with mass hydra and kill my third while I’m trying to establish it. (Level of play here is around 3000 MMR gold 1 / plat 3 opponents usually) Edit: just to provide context it’s the build from this article https://terrancraft.com/2019/01/05/tvz-evolving-mech-style-in-4-7-1/
what time are you getting your BC out? are you using hellions to harass before you send the BC in?
anyway, we cant really tell without a replay, but it's likely a mechanics issue. they shouldnt have a game ending hydra ball capable of walking across the map by the time ur taking ur 3rd.
in gold/plat just focus on mechanics imo. macro, hellion micro, bc control, constantly running around killing creep, etc. in fact, it's more important to devleop your mechanics before focusing on timings. a BC timing isnt worth it if your macro falls behind that much
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Thanks for the reply, in answers to your questions timings and replays are pasted below. Really appreciate folks taking the time to help
Replay lost game
https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/10300120
Natural CC starts ~1:50
Hellions move out 5:01 kill 2 drones and disrupt mining at third a bit
BC blinks into main 5:58 does 325 resources worth of damage, queen, extractor, a few drones
Start building CCs to expand to third at ~7:15
Roaches attack and delay my third for awhile, then hydras attack and do the same. Then they kill me later.
Replay won game
https://sc2replaystats.com/replay/10300870
Natural CC starts ~1:50
BC blinks into natural 5:52 does 750 resources fo damage and disrupts mining, kills queen, hydras, and drones
Hellions move out 6:35 kill 1 zergling and make drones run, then get caught
Start building CCs to expand to third at 6:50
I move out with hellion cyclone at around 9 minutes and kill his third. Then I take my own behind that. I was slow / cautious to take third.
Eventually I get into a cycle of harassing his north side with one group of hellion cyclone, his south side with another group and his main with 2 BCs and wear him down till he quits when creep is pushed back to his natural.
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On April 12 2019 03:44 General_Winter wrote:Not sure if this is a question people can answer in general or if I would need a replay, but how do people secure a third base when opening battle cruiser rush into a battle mech (cyclone hellion) transition? I find that if the first BC and first hellion run by (with 4 or 6 hellions) doesn’t do significant damage that a lot of the time they just walk across the map with mass hydra and kill my third while I’m trying to establish it. (Level of play here is around 3000 MMR gold 1 / plat 3 opponents usually) Edit: just to provide context it’s the build from this article https://terrancraft.com/2019/01/05/tvz-evolving-mech-style-in-4-7-1/
I don’t really think that’s the kind of build a gold/plat player should be using. It’s quite micro heavy and involves you doing that while you should be expanding and doing other things that are undoubtedly more important at that level. I am not sure if that build specifically goes into cyclone heavy battle mech but that is again another style for somebody with good mechanics. The classic mech style is much easier to use and imo lets you focus on just macroing which is what you need at that level.
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On April 12 2019 03:44 General_Winter wrote:Not sure if this is a question people can answer in general or if I would need a replay, but how do people secure a third base when opening battle cruiser rush into a battle mech (cyclone hellion) transition? I find that if the first BC and first hellion run by (with 4 or 6 hellions) doesn’t do significant damage that a lot of the time they just walk across the map with mass hydra and kill my third while I’m trying to establish it. (Level of play here is around 3000 MMR gold 1 / plat 3 opponents usually) Edit: just to provide context it’s the build from this article https://terrancraft.com/2019/01/05/tvz-evolving-mech-style-in-4-7-1/
If you're going for the BC hellion opening you should have 9 hellions and 1 BC at 5:20 along with an armory if you want to transform into hellbats. If you've done the build correctly you should be able to drop your 3rd CC in your main at 5:30 while your opponent is dealing with the BC and hellions/bats and start adding your additional factories with a tank starting off your first factory around 5:35-5:40. I prefer bio, but I'd imagine even for battlemech you might want that first tank on the high ground just in case Zerg decides to YOLO it (if they opened roaches or something) after seeing the first BC.
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On April 13 2019 05:59 Rowrin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 12 2019 03:44 General_Winter wrote:Not sure if this is a question people can answer in general or if I would need a replay, but how do people secure a third base when opening battle cruiser rush into a battle mech (cyclone hellion) transition? I find that if the first BC and first hellion run by (with 4 or 6 hellions) doesn’t do significant damage that a lot of the time they just walk across the map with mass hydra and kill my third while I’m trying to establish it. (Level of play here is around 3000 MMR gold 1 / plat 3 opponents usually) Edit: just to provide context it’s the build from this article https://terrancraft.com/2019/01/05/tvz-evolving-mech-style-in-4-7-1/ If you're going for the BC hellion opening you should have 9 hellions and 1 BC at 5:20 along with an armory if you want to transform into hellbats. If you've done the build correctly you should be able to drop your 3rd CC in your main at 5:30 while your opponent is dealing with the BC and hellions/bats and start adding your additional factories with a tank starting off your first factory around 5:35-5:40. I prefer bio, but I'd imagine even for battlemech you might want that first tank on the high ground just in case Zerg decides to YOLO it (if they opened roaches or something) after seeing the first BC.
faced this today as zerg and made early roaches because i confused the build for a fast hellbat allin, so the tank is probably a good idea. my counterattack kept me in the game even though i was totally unprepared for the BC.
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Hi guys, long-time Zerg player here, who currently switched to Terran. Still trying to get the hang of things really, currently hovering around 3600-ish MMR (very low Diamond).
I am especially struggling with TvP - I am trying to learn by looking at streams / pro replays, but I do find that the meta in my MMR region is extremely different from pro play ( i mean more so than what I encounter in TvZ and TvT).
In most ladder games I find an expand off of 2 gateways, into 2 stalker pressure and then a fast robo with immortals and or warp prism harrass.
Whats the best way to deflect the 2 stalkers in the beginning ? I´ve seen pros keep there reaper in the opponents main and defend w pulling scvs at home. This obviously demands near perfect reaper micro, which I dont have.
Should I leave the reaper home ? Should I rush out a tank since I hardly ever play vs Stargate, or can I defend w a cyclone as well ?
Any help / suggestions much appreciated.
Also what do you guys feel is a safe, macro opening for TvP, given the mentioned circumstances ?
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On April 13 2019 23:26 TequilaMockingbird wrote:
Hi guys, long-time Zerg player here, who currently switched to Terran. Still trying to get the hang of things really, currently hovering around 3600-ish MMR (very low Diamond).
I am especially struggling with TvP - I am trying to learn by looking at streams / pro replays, but I do find that the meta in my MMR region is extremely different from pro play ( i mean more so than what I encounter in TvZ and TvT).
In most ladder games I find an expand off of 2 gateways, into 2 stalker pressure and then a fast robo with immortals and or warp prism harrass.
Whats the best way to deflect the 2 stalkers in the beginning ? I´ve seen pros keep there reaper in the opponents main and defend w pulling scvs at home. This obviously demands near perfect reaper micro, which I dont have.
Should I leave the reaper home ? Should I rush out a tank since I hardly ever play vs Stargate, or can I defend w a cyclone as well ?
Any help / suggestions much appreciated.
Also what do you guys feel is a safe, macro opening for TvP, given the mentioned circumstances ?
a reaper doesn't really do much defensively against a 2 gate stalker opening. the counter is a bunker and, as you said, pulling SCVs if necessary. if your scout is too late to get a bunker in front of your natural then you can bunker the top of your ramp and cancel or lift your expand (restart your CC in the main if you have to cancel it). if you can't multitask at all then you can just put the reaper in your bunker, but you have more potential available to you by harassing probes and forcing him to keep a unit at home (especially at 3600 MMR his defense shouldn't be very intimidating). i don't think you need "near perfect reaper micro" at all
against immortal warp prism i think tank is better. cyclone is ok but you need to pull SCVs with it so it doesn't just die. make a viking also - without a viking immo warp prism will shred you. or if not a viking you can make a raven and interference matrix the prism so he can't prism micro the immortal.
it's a common mistake to think you need to change your build against openers like 2gate. the most you should need to do is lift your expand into the main and turtle up. in TvP always remember that being contained isn't as bad as it seems. as long as you preserve your units, continue teching and restart your expand if necessary you'll usually end up with a tech advantage and a manageable economy
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Hi everyone
I haven't played in years.. I was plat in WOL for a while but haven't really played since.
The game is very different now and I'm probably operating around bronze/silver level from what I've seen of playing vs ai. The OP here is a little bit bare so does anyone have a link to an ok all purpose BO for getting my macro skills up to speed again?
I don't need anything fancy or with any crazy micro intensive unit comps, just something simple for marine/tank or something like the old MMM builds would probably work for my level at the moment...
Thanks
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On April 19 2019 20:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
Hi everyone
I haven't played in years.. I was plat in WOL for a while but haven't really played since.
The game is very different now and I'm probably operating around bronze/silver level from what I've seen of playing vs ai. The OP here is a little bit bare so does anyone have a link to an ok all purpose BO for getting my macro skills up to speed again?
I don't need anything fancy or with any crazy micro intensive unit comps, just something simple for marine/tank or something like the old MMM builds would probably work for my level at the moment...
Thanks
I get what you're asking for, but why not just go with the flow ? Try stuff out and see what works and what doesn't ? Do what you find most fun ?
At your level (and at mine too tbh, no judgement here), win/loss will be much more determined by mechanics rather than strategy (which becomes more important once you get to a certain level).
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On April 20 2019 00:05 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2019 20:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
Hi everyone
I haven't played in years.. I was plat in WOL for a while but haven't really played since.
The game is very different now and I'm probably operating around bronze/silver level from what I've seen of playing vs ai. The OP here is a little bit bare so does anyone have a link to an ok all purpose BO for getting my macro skills up to speed again?
I don't need anything fancy or with any crazy micro intensive unit comps, just something simple for marine/tank or something like the old MMM builds would probably work for my level at the moment...
Thanks I get what you're asking for, but why not just go with the flow ? Try stuff out and see what works and what doesn't ? Do what you find most fun ? At your level (and at mine too tbh, no judgement here), win/loss will be much more determined by mechanics rather than strategy (which becomes more important once you get to a certain level).
I get what you're saying, but I feel like the best way to get my mechanics better again is to practice build orders. The game is more difficult now than it was so I don't wanna get into bad habits by doing badly optimized stuff all the time.
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On April 20 2019 01:48 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 00:05 LoneYoShi wrote:On April 19 2019 20:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
Hi everyone
I haven't played in years.. I was plat in WOL for a while but haven't really played since.
The game is very different now and I'm probably operating around bronze/silver level from what I've seen of playing vs ai. The OP here is a little bit bare so does anyone have a link to an ok all purpose BO for getting my macro skills up to speed again?
I don't need anything fancy or with any crazy micro intensive unit comps, just something simple for marine/tank or something like the old MMM builds would probably work for my level at the moment...
Thanks I get what you're asking for, but why not just go with the flow ? Try stuff out and see what works and what doesn't ? Do what you find most fun ? At your level (and at mine too tbh, no judgement here), win/loss will be much more determined by mechanics rather than strategy (which becomes more important once you get to a certain level). I get what you're saying, but I feel like the best way to get my mechanics better again is to practice build orders. The game is more difficult now than it was so I don't wanna get into bad habits by doing badly optimized stuff all the time.
That's a fair point. BO's at least give you benchmarks (have medivacs out at x minutes, have 50 SCVs by that time, etc) that "free play" won't give you. OK, OK.
I don't know many up to date ressources sadly, but the spawning tool is always a good place to start. Then there's Terrancraft that I don't use but have heard good things about, and if you're OK with scouring reddit, I can also point to AllThingsTerran. Hope it helps !
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On April 20 2019 02:30 LoneYoShi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2019 01:48 Jockmcplop wrote:On April 20 2019 00:05 LoneYoShi wrote:On April 19 2019 20:48 Jockmcplop wrote:
Hi everyone
I haven't played in years.. I was plat in WOL for a while but haven't really played since.
The game is very different now and I'm probably operating around bronze/silver level from what I've seen of playing vs ai. The OP here is a little bit bare so does anyone have a link to an ok all purpose BO for getting my macro skills up to speed again?
I don't need anything fancy or with any crazy micro intensive unit comps, just something simple for marine/tank or something like the old MMM builds would probably work for my level at the moment...
Thanks I get what you're asking for, but why not just go with the flow ? Try stuff out and see what works and what doesn't ? Do what you find most fun ? At your level (and at mine too tbh, no judgement here), win/loss will be much more determined by mechanics rather than strategy (which becomes more important once you get to a certain level). I get what you're saying, but I feel like the best way to get my mechanics better again is to practice build orders. The game is more difficult now than it was so I don't wanna get into bad habits by doing badly optimized stuff all the time. That's a fair point. BO's at least give you benchmarks (have medivacs out at x minutes, have 50 SCVs by that time, etc) that "free play" won't give you. OK, OK. I don't know many up to date ressources sadly, but the spawning tool is always a good place to start. Then there's Terrancraft that I don't use but have heard good things about, and if you're OK with scouring reddit, I can also point to AllThingsTerran. Hope it helps !
That's awesome cheers 
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Hi everyone, i'm very new to SC2(i'm a brood war player), I would like to know what to do after a 2-1-1 opening ? Also is it a general opening in any MU or is it really only in TvZ ?
I'm currently training some BO for each MU before going into 1v1, and the 2-1-1 looks like a general opening but then what should I do after the push with M&M ? IS there guide online for what TvX midgame and late game look like ? Because I'm completely lost after follolowing a BO, I don't know which unit I should build next or not.
Last question: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/93869/
What means at 100 supply "Action"
Thanks in advance
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On April 28 2019 04:51 Shiroime wrote:Hi everyone, i'm very new to SC2(i'm a brood war player), I would like to know what to do after a 2-1-1 opening ? Also is it a general opening in any MU or is it really only in TvZ ? I'm currently training some BO for each MU before going into 1v1, and the 2-1-1 looks like a general opening but then what should I do after the push with M&M ? IS there guide online for what TvX midgame and late game look like ? Because I'm completely lost after follolowing a BO, I don't know which unit I should build next or not. Last question: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/93869/What means at 100 supply "Action" Thanks in advance
Hi Shiroimee welcome to sc2 im gonna be real frank with you - The 2-1-1 is strictly TvZ and in general it is a bad build for TvZ. The reasoning I give almost everyone new to the game or learning is that the 2-1-1 is a ridiculously hard build with a skill ceiling that reaches into high masters. For the build to actually work the way intended you'd need to be executing it a level so high that everyone knows how to counter it. In comparison to other TvZ builds while it seems simpler its actually just worse. What I honestly recommend is you try and learn hellion lib. its the most straight forward and standard TvZ build in my opinion and works out great if you like bio. Sadly there is no TvX as all 3 matchups vary greatly but if you'd like to learn other builds or see how to transition with builds I have made multiple videos that cover the first steps of a build to maxing out (usually 9:00-10:30 ingame) at this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsqL7k7Vx9X3xsy5OGFbHFg/videos?view_as=subscriber
Also regarding your question about the "Action" comment, I think it just means that you're intended to move out. Personally, I wouldn't recommend learning builds through spawning tool as it is the Wikipedia of sc2 (Anyone can post there) I typically find as a gm player that most of the builds there for "terran" (Not toss or zerg) aren't usually recorded or written down in a good format. Best way to learn is to just start jotting major timings and placements of buildings on notepad by time (not supply) in pro games. Maru vs Ragnarok GSL 2019 Season 1 Ro32 was a really good series for learning TvZ imo.
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On April 28 2019 22:45 Ryu3600 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 04:51 Shiroime wrote:Hi everyone, i'm very new to SC2(i'm a brood war player), I would like to know what to do after a 2-1-1 opening ? Also is it a general opening in any MU or is it really only in TvZ ? I'm currently training some BO for each MU before going into 1v1, and the 2-1-1 looks like a general opening but then what should I do after the push with M&M ? IS there guide online for what TvX midgame and late game look like ? Because I'm completely lost after follolowing a BO, I don't know which unit I should build next or not. Last question: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/93869/What means at 100 supply "Action" Thanks in advance Hi Shiroimee welcome to sc2 im gonna be real frank with you - The 2-1-1 is strictly TvZ and in general it is a bad build for TvZ. The reasoning I give almost everyone new to the game or learning is that the 2-1-1 is a ridiculously hard build with a skill ceiling that reaches into high masters. For the build to actually work the way intended you'd need to be executing it a level so high that everyone knows how to counter it. In comparison to other TvZ builds while it seems simpler its actually just worse. What I honestly recommend is you try and learn hellion lib. its the most straight forward and standard TvZ build in my opinion and works out great if you like bio. Sadly there is no TvX as all 3 matchups vary greatly but if you'd like to learn other builds or see how to transition with builds I have made multiple videos that cover the first steps of a build to maxing out (usually 9:00-10:30 ingame) at this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsqL7k7Vx9X3xsy5OGFbHFg/videos?view_as=subscriber Also regarding your question about the "Action" comment, I think it just means that you're intended to move out. Personally, I wouldn't recommend learning builds through spawning tool as it is the Wikipedia of sc2 (Anyone can post there) I typically find as a gm player that most of the builds there for "terran" (Not toss or zerg) aren't usually recorded or written down in a good format. Best way to learn is to just start jotting major timings and placements of buildings on notepad by time (not supply) in pro games. Maru vs Ragnarok GSL 2019 Season 1 Ro32 was a really good series for learning TvZ imo.
Thanks, what a great anwser ! Thanks you also for telling me that spawning tool wasn't the best website for BO, because I used this as my reference. There's also something similar for BW but I believe there's verification, or at least people who write are very experienced and skilled.
Concerning the 2-1-1, indeed even though I already have around 200-250 APM in brood war, I only have 150-200 in SC2(I think it's the time to get used to things since I really started 2-1-1 as my first BO only 2-3 days ago), and I can't execute properly the 2-1-1 even after 10 tries.
It's not a problem if there's isn't TvX build, to be honest I like learning and having new knoweldge, SC is a game where you need to study anyway. I'll do deliberate practice like I often do in BW to hit right timing when practicing a BO for each MU.
also the thing that destabilize me in SC2 and spawningf tool is that some BO goes up to 100 supply and vary a lot due to unit lost. Is that normal ? In comparison with BW, most BO goes up to 30-50 supply, and sometime even less(or rarely, even more), but you don't have any BO that include unit lost xD it's always before you lose unit or at least it uses what is called "triggers" or "relatives timing" like place your factory as soon as your rax is finished, instead of saying place the factory at 23 you see what I means ?
And the last thing was indeed the transition. In SC2 I can't find any guide with mid game transition, or composition unit(in BW you can find it pretty easily), I'm currently using a map to test unit and composition unit like for instance marine alone vs hydra roach then adding some marauder, but I guess watching pro games as you said will be faster.
I got another question, is it true that SC2 is more like "If my opponent does A then I do B, then if he/she does C I do D,etc...." ?
Because in BW it's not the case.
I'll take a look at your video now, thanks again.
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On April 29 2019 00:43 Shiroime wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2019 22:45 Ryu3600 wrote:On April 28 2019 04:51 Shiroime wrote:Hi everyone, i'm very new to SC2(i'm a brood war player), I would like to know what to do after a 2-1-1 opening ? Also is it a general opening in any MU or is it really only in TvZ ? I'm currently training some BO for each MU before going into 1v1, and the 2-1-1 looks like a general opening but then what should I do after the push with M&M ? IS there guide online for what TvX midgame and late game look like ? Because I'm completely lost after follolowing a BO, I don't know which unit I should build next or not. Last question: https://lotv.spawningtool.com/build/93869/What means at 100 supply "Action" Thanks in advance Hi Shiroimee welcome to sc2 im gonna be real frank with you - The 2-1-1 is strictly TvZ and in general it is a bad build for TvZ. The reasoning I give almost everyone new to the game or learning is that the 2-1-1 is a ridiculously hard build with a skill ceiling that reaches into high masters. For the build to actually work the way intended you'd need to be executing it a level so high that everyone knows how to counter it. In comparison to other TvZ builds while it seems simpler its actually just worse. What I honestly recommend is you try and learn hellion lib. its the most straight forward and standard TvZ build in my opinion and works out great if you like bio. Sadly there is no TvX as all 3 matchups vary greatly but if you'd like to learn other builds or see how to transition with builds I have made multiple videos that cover the first steps of a build to maxing out (usually 9:00-10:30 ingame) at this channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsqL7k7Vx9X3xsy5OGFbHFg/videos?view_as=subscriber Also regarding your question about the "Action" comment, I think it just means that you're intended to move out. Personally, I wouldn't recommend learning builds through spawning tool as it is the Wikipedia of sc2 (Anyone can post there) I typically find as a gm player that most of the builds there for "terran" (Not toss or zerg) aren't usually recorded or written down in a good format. Best way to learn is to just start jotting major timings and placements of buildings on notepad by time (not supply) in pro games. Maru vs Ragnarok GSL 2019 Season 1 Ro32 was a really good series for learning TvZ imo. Thanks, what a great anwser ! Thanks you also for telling me that spawning tool wasn't the best website for BO, because I used this as my reference. There's also something similar for BW but I believe there's verification, or at least people who write are very experienced and skilled. Concerning the 2-1-1, indeed even though I already have around 200-250 APM in brood war, I only have 150-200 in SC2(I think it's the time to get used to things since I really started 2-1-1 as my first BO only 2-3 days ago), and I can't execute properly the 2-1-1 even after 10 tries. It's not a problem if there's isn't TvX build, to be honest I like learning and having new knoweldge, SC is a game where you need to study anyway. I'll do deliberate practice like I often do in BW to hit right timing when practicing a BO for each MU. also the thing that destabilize me in SC2 and spawningf tool is that some BO goes up to 100 supply and vary a lot due to unit lost. Is that normal ? In comparison with BW, most BO goes up to 30-50 supply, and sometime even less(or rarely, even more), but you don't have any BO that include unit lost xD it's always before you lose unit And the last thing was indeed the transition. In SC2 I can't find any guide with mid game transition, or composition unit(in BW you can find it pretty easily), I'm currently using a map to test unit and composition unit like for instance marine alone vs hydra roach then adding some marauder, but I guess watching pro games as you said will be faster. I got another question, is it true that SC2 is more like "If my opponent does A then I do B, then if he/she does C I do D,etc...." ? Because in BW it's not the case. I'll take a look at your video now, thanks again.
So whenever I look at builds I ignore supply completely. It is too subject to change and can vary a ton. I rather look at the timing in which I want my stuff to be thrown down the benchmarks for my unit general supply (Like you wanna max at 9:00 in TvZ typically) and my upgrade timings then I see what the expected timings to hit for my builds are. In the lategame you do want to start producing counters but usually you can run a general army comp like MMM and have supporting units to back you up. Example Vs colossi you'd probably stop making widowmines and go for a unit like the viking or vs high templar you'd throw in ghosts. Just like how you would grab goliaths when you're against mutas. As for mid game transition its usually just adding more production into the army comp you would like. For reference on 2base you'll be 3-1-1 with standard bio so on 3 base you can go into 5-2-1 or 5-1-2 (Rax-Fac-Star) based on what'd you like to do. As for lategame you usually complete your transition into the ideal production line. For me in TvZ I like 8-2-3 and I also start to tech towards liberator range and ghost academies so I can get ghost lib viking and still make bio consistently. In most of my videos I usually cover how to go into these transitions and what time I do everything. Main thing to know for sc2 from bronze to M3 is just understand how to do your build and hit its timings. This is also true for M1 but it becomes a bit more complex. Micro isn't too needed just the ability to split really, rest comes with time.
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EPT
