I don't think it is valid to complain about TvP until you've made sure you have 100% hit the correct timing for your build in its exact order and your opponent has held it with a non-timing or subpar optimization of their build. I think a lot of Terrans below GM just straight up neglect understanding how refined the timings for certain builds are and just go off of the general order. For reference most builds atm are aiming to hit between 6:30 or 7:00. One such standard build would be the 3mine drop into a 3-1-1 push with biomine stimpack +1 and combatshields by 6:30. With most raven openers it looks like you can still do the same stim +1 combatshield but at 7:00. Some tank pushes even hit as early as 5:15. I personally like doing 3Rax Stim which leaves at 5:05 and hits roughly at 5:20-5:25. A lot of you may find that if you just execute a build really really well you can sometimes just outright destroy your opponent. Of course it is easier said than done and it can only be realized once you've reached a higher level how much easier it could be but it is the direction you want to aim for. As for control issues against lategame toss, you just need to know how to take the engagement and what the right units are. A good rule of thumb is 4 vikings per colossi, 5 ghosts vs massgateway with 1-2 ghosts added for each base they have mining after 3. (So 6-7 vs 4 mining bases), 4 medivacs at most unless you are very drop heavy in which case you want 6. As for stuff like storm drops or engaging into a toss army with storm drop - preconcave your army when you engage in have your ghosts track the warp prism and try to throw a few marines forward. Storm drops need to move forward to be used not backwards so a good 1-2 emps and a marine a click forward should stop 1-2 hightemplar and grab the prism. The biggest take-away from this text dump is just use EMP earlier and better. Its 100 free shield damage, its actually huge (50 damage vs Zealot, 80 vs Stalker, 100 vs archon, 100 vs immortal, 100 vs colossi, you get the idea)
This is my last replay against Broodlords plus vipers. Idk how exactly proceed to finalize the game. I was so ahead but couldn't kill him. Can you guys help me with that?
On March 21 2019 06:57 Damien wrote: This is my last replay against Broodlords plus vipers. Idk how exactly proceed to finalize the game. I was so ahead but couldn't kill him. Can you guys help me with that?
first of you werent ahead at any point in the game until 26min, where i stopped watching the rep, second both you and your opponent made bunch of mistakes, for example you had 2-2 at 17min with bio and 1-0/1-0 with mech&air, at 14min you push his fourth but cant do anything because 40supply of bio is the red because you have zero medivacs after that he was ahead and just camped. Against his army comp of(bl ultra coruptor infestor and some bling/ling) going something like 5-10thors/mass cyclones/some hellbats with bio support seems logical, drop the bio, hold the front with mech, getting some ghost like you did is great as well as you only really would need to micro them to emp/snipe vipers.
I've lost a few times to cannon rushes lately, which made me realise that I actually have no clue on how to handle them properly (assuming the P is a bit careful and doesn't lose his probe).
What's the best response :
Pull workers ?
Assuming you went for reaper expand, do you add a second barracks for more marines ?
Keep the reaper at home vs send it to the P's base ?
Build bunker(s) to try to stop the cannons from moving forward, or keep ressources to build units ?
Rush for a tank ?
Does it depend on how early/late you understood what was going on (seeing the first pylon vs 1 or 2 cannons already building)
...
I'd be very grateful if someone could give me some pointers/advice.
Watch Serral's games from that finish tournament where was playing terran. One of the protoss cannon rushed him I believe every single game they played.
If i remember correctly his response was to always target the first pylon with scvs to delay the advance and control his ramp as best as possible then cyclones to liberate the natural and counter proxy immortal/tempest push with batteries.
I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
On March 29 2019 22:32 Doko wrote: Watch Serral's games from that finish tournament where was playing terran. One of the protoss cannon rushed him I believe every single game they played.
If i remember correctly his response was to always target the first pylon with scvs to delay the advance and control his ramp as best as possible then cyclones to liberate the natural and counter proxy immortal/tempest push with batteries.
well thats exactly what you do, you send 4-5scv per pylon, 2scv to run after probe to kill it, and bunker as fast as possible.
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals).
Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it.
I usually do a 2 base bio hit every match up, im a terran player. Can someone direct me to an actual build order that is similar to what I play currently? Its the style of play ive been most effective with.
On April 01 2019 13:57 speakerbox wrote: I usually do a 2 base bio hit every match up, im a terran player. Can someone direct me to an actual build order that is similar to what I play currently? Its the style of play ive been most effective with.
On April 01 2019 13:57 speakerbox wrote: I usually do a 2 base bio hit every match up, im a terran player. Can someone direct me to an actual build order that is similar to what I play currently? Its the style of play ive been most effective with.
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals).
Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it.
What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors.
The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15)
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals).
Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it.
What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors.
The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15)
I have only encountered this a couple of times. Last time I teleported on top of the disruptors, yamoted all of them, lost all of BCs to tempest, moved in with my army after the disruptors were gone and killed his army.
The time before that I think I transitioned to BCs a little bit too late so I had only 3 or 4. I then started teleporting BC into mineral lines while sending ghost to nuking other expansions and won by hitting his economy instead of attacking his army directly.
So far this has not been a large problem. The real problem is securing a 3rd on time when going mech in TvP. Once in the late game with a good economy I think Terran is at least equal to Protoss, maybe even stronger.
On April 01 2019 13:57 speakerbox wrote: I usually do a 2 base bio hit every match up, im a terran player. Can someone direct me to an actual build order that is similar to what I play currently? Its the style of play ive been most effective with.
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals).
Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it.
What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors.
The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15)
I have only encountered this a couple of times. Last time I teleported on top of the disruptors, yamoted all of them, lost all of BCs to tempest, moved in with my army after the disruptors were gone and killed his army.
The time before that I think I transitioned to BCs a little bit too late so I had only 3 or 4. I then started teleporting BC into mineral lines while sending ghost to nuking other expansions and won by hitting his economy instead of attacking his army directly.
So far this has not been a large problem. The real problem is securing a 3rd on time when going mech in TvP. Once in the late game with a good economy I think Terran is at least equal to Protoss, maybe even stronger.
I completely agree with your last paragraph.
What I still don't get is how you move in to beat the protoss ground army with mech after you lose all BCs. Unless the protoss player is dumb and tries to engage an established mech position. Otherwise, gateway warp ins and robo units should steamroll and out maneuver terran mech without BC liberator support unless I'm missing something here.
it would probably help if i actually try it or see it in action
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals).
Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it.
What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors.
The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15)
I have only encountered this a couple of times. Last time I teleported on top of the disruptors, yamoted all of them, lost all of BCs to tempest, moved in with my army after the disruptors were gone and killed his army.
The time before that I think I transitioned to BCs a little bit too late so I had only 3 or 4. I then started teleporting BC into mineral lines while sending ghost to nuking other expansions and won by hitting his economy instead of attacking his army directly.
So far this has not been a large problem. The real problem is securing a 3rd on time when going mech in TvP. Once in the late game with a good economy I think Terran is at least equal to Protoss, maybe even stronger.
I completely agree with your last paragraph.
What I still don't get is how you move in to beat the protoss ground army with mech after you lose all BCs. Unless the protoss player is dumb and tries to engage an established mech position. Otherwise, gateway warp ins and robo units should steamroll and out maneuver terran mech without BC liberator support unless I'm missing something here.
it would probably help if i actually try it or see it in action
Ground mech is actually stronger than Protoss in a straight up battle. The reason people experience it otherwise is because mech often dies in the midgame where Protoss have a significant unit lead. So most battles people experience is when the Protoss army have a much higher army value to do factories and armories costing so much resources.
Once in late game it evens out though and Terrans ground army beats Protoss ground army. Which is why almost every Protoss player start to mix in air. Before the Tempest and Carrier nerf this was almost an auto-loss for Terran but now when Thors actually counters air decently this is no longer the case.
But I think the main reasons we will still not see mech on higher levels are: 1. Really hard to take a 3rd on time. 2. Mech is really weak vs Protoss in the midgame until you get both enough tanks and enough buffer units. 3. Warp-prisms. 4. Really hard to balance the anti-ground to anti-air ratio correctly. If the ratio is off for even one battle you typically lose the game.
On March 31 2019 17:08 skdsk wrote: I just had an idea, tvp endgame toss composition is mass tempest ht, but what if you massed bunch of cyclones? You wouldnt really need to dodge storms, since after lock on you just send them back, since they have 14range vs 10range of tempest. The price of viking and cyclone is very similar, yet cyclone is much better vs ground targets as well.
Mass cyclones worked as air counter when you could reactor them, but now I find it hard to produce enough cyclones fast enough to make a difference.
Against Tempest/HT mass Thors works wonder. Thors counter Tempest and storm only tickle Thors.
My go to comp against Protoss is Tank/Mine into mass Thors with BC/mine/tank support. I think trying to counter Tempest/HT with Viking/Ghost is a bad idea. I would not be surprised if even the pro meta eventually changes to mech vs Protoss. Bio is extremely hard to use vs Protoss after midgame and the various all-ins with bio will eventually be figured out.
Mech has its weakness but now when Thors counter Tempest and Thor/mine counters Carriers mech actually has all the tools needed to deal with Protoss. Plus you do not need 400+ APM to make it work. Your scouting, unit composition adjustment and army management need to be really good, but I foresee that mech eventually will replace bio as the standard meta vs Protoss.
How does this work when protoss can just change the backbone of the death ball from HT/Tempest to disruptor/tempest? All the protoss player needs to do is stop warping in HTs and just pumping robo units + stalkers, and zealots for harass. Tempest + disruptor will absolutely destroy mech + bc since tempests outrange bcs and disruptors outrange all mech
Vikings are absolutely necessary imo, since they are more cost efficient than mech vs tempest and it's easier to combat storms with ghost liberator than it is to fight disruptors with mech. Thors are also slow as hell and cannot chase tempests, meaning the protoss is always dictating the engagements. Without ghost/bio you'll be vulnerable to gateway unit run by /warp ins (unless bc count is high)
As an ex protoss player it is so easy to steamroll thor based mech unless the terran had enough battlecruisers, in which case if you let the terran get mech + high BC count something went horribly wrong for you. Skyterran with bio support is where it's at. You also build up towards a massive sim city since the tempest death ball is built to chip away rather than bulldoze positions, meaning that it will be very hard for protoss player to do actual damage.
I almost always beat tempest/disruptor players by adding tanks and yamoting the disruptors. In theory disruptors out-range tanks in practice they tend to die from spread out tanks and yamoto shots. I do not not use BC to fight the Tempest, instead I use it to take out units that actually threatening my thors (like disruptors or immortals).
Then again my opponents tend to be bad at aiming the disruptor shots, maybe there a higher level where disruptors counter mech. So far I have not experienced it.
What do you do when they just sit back chipping away on your BCs with tempests. Your thors move in to protect BCs, but the disruptors that are right underneath the tempests in the death ball zone out/kill the thors.
The disruptors should be close to the tempests, meaning that in order to yamato the disruptors, you need to be eating a ton of tempest shots (yamato range only = 10, tempest range = 15)
I have only encountered this a couple of times. Last time I teleported on top of the disruptors, yamoted all of them, lost all of BCs to tempest, moved in with my army after the disruptors were gone and killed his army.
The time before that I think I transitioned to BCs a little bit too late so I had only 3 or 4. I then started teleporting BC into mineral lines while sending ghost to nuking other expansions and won by hitting his economy instead of attacking his army directly.
So far this has not been a large problem. The real problem is securing a 3rd on time when going mech in TvP. Once in the late game with a good economy I think Terran is at least equal to Protoss, maybe even stronger.
I completely agree with your last paragraph.
What I still don't get is how you move in to beat the protoss ground army with mech after you lose all BCs. Unless the protoss player is dumb and tries to engage an established mech position. Otherwise, gateway warp ins and robo units should steamroll and out maneuver terran mech without BC liberator support unless I'm missing something here.
it would probably help if i actually try it or see it in action
Ground mech is actually stronger than Protoss in a straight up battle. The reason people experience it otherwise is because mech often dies in the midgame where Protoss have a significant unit lead. So most battles people experience is when the Protoss army have a much higher army value to do factories and armories costing so much resources.
Once in late game it evens out though and Terrans ground army beats Protoss ground army. Which is why almost every Protoss player start to mix in air. Before the Tempest and Carrier nerf this was almost an auto-loss for Terran but now when Thors actually counters air decently this is no longer the case.
But I think the main reasons we will still not see mech on higher levels are: 1. Really hard to take a 3rd on time. 2. Mech is really weak vs Protoss in the midgame until you get both enough tanks and enough buffer units. 3. Warp-prisms. 4. Really hard to balance the anti-ground to anti-air ratio correctly. If the ratio is off for even one battle you typically lose the game.
Yes - I acknowledge the fact that mech is stronger than protoss ground head to head in a straight up fight. In fact, the same could be said about almost any Terran composition. Pound for pound, terran units are usually stronger and will win in a straight up fight.
That said, I still dont see how it's a viable strategy unless the players are in diamond or lower. You yourself gave most of the reasons it's pretty unviable in higher level play.
Like you said, your economy will be behind the protoss' as per point 1. Mech needs a critical mass to beat something like immortal chargelot based army as per point 2. Warp prisms will allow the protoss to constantly outmaneuver you and run circles around you, as well as of course being able to replenish their army faster than your slow ass mech production (exacerbated by point 1 - you will usually have a weaker economy)
So basically, mech is always at a disadvantage against protoss. Even if youre able to sacrifice battlecruisers, the most expensive unit in the game, just to kill disruptors, and then proceed to try and push, a smart protoss player will just stall you with hit and run tactics as well as warp in units to devastate your bases while your slow army is stuck on the map trying to push. And then if you manage to wipe out his army, he will be able to warp in wave after wave of gateway units with his superior economy to hold you off while he did damage at your bases
It's almost the same scenario as when a two base terran is trying to move out with a timing attack. sure, your tanks and marines will beat the protoss army if the protoss army decides to go head first into tanks that are already sieged up. but that's almost never what they do. they usually pick off marines with blink stalkers as youre trying to move across the map, while having a few units in the back either picking off reinforcements or trying to kill workers. when you finally hit their base, your army is whittled down while they loaded up on shield batteries and are ready to warp in reinforcements with their superior economy
WCS
