On February 19 2019 00:14 TheWarbler wrote: Just started playing again, was master mid master Terran in WoL... I literally can not beat Toss. No matter what they do I feel behind.
I've had some success by going for a reactored barracks (for marines) at home, and proxied factory (with techlab for tanks) and starport (libs). Off of one base, it's a hard hitting cheese that can kill a lot of the protosses opening too greedily.
Stay hidden and wait for 1 tank + 1 lib + 4-6 marines, rally all to his nat, take a 2-3 SCVs for repair/bunkers, and hope for the best.
I keep running into the same kind of scenarios in some of my games against all races, with both my terran and my protoss (blink pressure), where when I'm doing some kind of tank+marine or 2 medivac 16 marine+stim pressure at around 5 mins, either I end up being dropped/harrassed when my army is halfway across the map or our armies pass without seeing each other just barely resulting in a base trade that I usually end up losing. I'm not sure how to adapt my game plan. Am I supposed to scan the enemy before moving out, delay the pressure until I'm sure nothing is coming and the opponent is sitting back or just accept the base trade and execute better?
how good are widow mines in lotv? i remember spamming them back in hots, but i havent seen much use of the in lotv(i just got back after 4-5years inactivity and only playing around 3-4weeks). They kinda seem nerfed? i know that you can upgrade to get back perma invisibility did they nerf something else as well? doesnt seem as good as they were
On February 23 2019 04:29 skdsk wrote: how good are widow mines in lotv? i remember spamming them back in hots, but i havent seen much use of the in lotv(i just got back after 4-5years inactivity and only playing around 3-4weeks). They kinda seem nerfed? i know that you can upgrade to get back perma invisibility did they nerf something else as well? doesnt seem as good as they were
In TvT they are mostly useless but they have always been so in that matchup. In TvZ they are useful against ling/bane/muta and very useful if you use mech and need to protect your tanks against Swarm Hosts. In TvP widow mine drops are still very good and against zealot/archon based armies. They also excel against interceptors now when interceptors take so long to rebuild.
On February 23 2019 04:29 skdsk wrote: how good are widow mines in lotv? i remember spamming them back in hots, but i havent seen much use of the in lotv(i just got back after 4-5years inactivity and only playing around 3-4weeks). They kinda seem nerfed? i know that you can upgrade to get back perma invisibility did they nerf something else as well? doesnt seem as good as they were
In TvT they are mostly useless but they have always been so in that matchup. In TvZ they are useful against ling/bane/muta and very useful if you use mech and need to protect your tanks against Swarm Hosts. In TvP widow mine drops are still very good and against zealot/archon based armies. They also excel against interceptors now when interceptors take so long to rebuild.
so basically late game use? how good they are against high hp units like ultras?
GHOST BUILD: are there any ways to avoid "ghost rush" build? I mean "rush" - nuke oponent base at least in 4:45 min (cloaked,F,medv drop). Im working on that build, only problem is a counter attack, when i have only in my base 3M, 1G, 1D, 2h, tank and medivac but no upgrades of course. My question is - is it worth to do invest in that build - im new in sc2, i used to play bw long ago, but in these days nukes and ghosts were much stronger. Regards CeZ
On February 23 2019 15:52 CeZ wrote: GHOST BUILD: are there any ways to avoid "ghost rush" build? I mean "rush" - nuke oponent base at least in 4:45 min (cloaked,F,medv drop). Im working on that build, only problem is a counter attack, when i have only in my base 3M, 1G, 1D, 2h, tank and medivac but no upgrades of course. My question is - is it worth to do invest in that build - im new in sc2, i used to play bw long ago, but in these days nukes and ghosts were much stronger. Regards CeZ
Ghost rush builds aren't really a thing exactly? In TvP you can do a cloaked ghost rush those aren't too bad. But ghosts are much stronger they are excellent late game units. Most people go for ghost timings in TvP to destroy shield based protoss armies or stuff like stalker/zealot/archon/immortal. However their main functions are: TvZ: - Sniping units : 3 snipes for ultralisk 2 snipes for corruptor 2 snipes for broodlord 1 snipe for hydra 1 snipe for infestor 1 snipe for viper TvP: - Emp everything in the protoss army is emp'able but mainly hightemplar and sentries TvT: You can emp ravens I guess or throw nukes in the supreme late game but there really isn't much usage of the unit.
Overall the ghost is just a really really late game unit that you get when there are hightemplars or hive is started. Only other case is in the case you scout the toss goes mass gate style and you want to do a ghost timing
anyone tried bc rush after expo? seems to work against diamond/low master z/p, i just do standard reaper expand, and then get second gas quicly, with factory after first reaper, you can squise in a siege tank, before bc, for some safety, also you can get 2 extra raxes as well. the first bc hits at around 5.30, people expect cloackshee, since you hide your fusion core. I know its prolly not legit strategy, but it seems quite fun and it still requires some multitasking and is definetally easier to micro then cloackshee
On February 24 2019 05:50 skdsk wrote: anyone tried bc rush after expo? seems to work against diamond/low master z/p, i just do standard reaper expand, and then get second gas quicly, with factory after first reaper, you can squise in a siege tank, before bc, for some safety, also you can get 2 extra raxes as well. the first bc hits at around 5.30, people expect cloackshee, since you hide your fusion core. I know its prolly not legit strategy, but it seems quite fun and it still requires some multitasking and is definetally easier to micro then cloackshee
in witch matchup?
I tried it before expo by also dropping then expo behind.. But counter attacks are quite strong against it. Also it costs a huge lot of ressources.
Yes certainly easier than the fragile banshee.
But still certainly hard to play because you have alot less money, since against counter attacks every unit counts, not just income (workers/ depots)... And of course since you don't want to loose this expensive unit, your macro is harder. I would say its a high skill strategy such as every harrass one. But on the other hand it can be used in every league for its high potential if the enemy is weak (too).
Its advantage is Yamato and you can conserve it (if you choose to not use the jump offensively). So it's more of a mobile utlity unit imo. Its disadvantage is the high cost (and repair cost) and relative poor dps for its cost after Yamato.
So because of its cost, it's risky, but certainly fun if you can do it! Also it allows a transition = adding a raven, maybe getting a tech (medivac cooldown for imba drops, liberator upgrade..., then swapping to reactor-port). Anyways all this tech and utility is generally not considered early game, where more mass unit counts in order to survive. Unless you are protoss (storm vs masses is of course very good).
here are some matchup notes: TvZ, Yamato used against queens, i think this Non-meta strategy exists since WotL where people go for fast BC to snipe queens "for free". However it was used there on 1 base quick, which I did.
TvP - In General worst matchup for BC: 1)- no good targets for Yamato, either 1 yamato for a stalker early game, or 2 yamato for a immortal/coloss, if you conserved 2 of your BCs. I'd say the best thing in this matchup is getting a raven afterwards to build up the high energy and possibly use the disable skill to support your other units (if the enemy has only 4 colossi, one raven can disable them all), if he also has HTs then the raven can only be used very defensively (when you kited and his templers are not in range yet, but his zealots for instance), or if you sniped the templers. So in general Raven and BC are pretty bad against toss, but you can use them effectively, (to make up for their cost). I THINK - not sure if the lack of units allows the protoss too much expansions... 2)- Voidrays perma-follow it even with ability-activated, 3)- Not to forget Sentries Shield GOOD: 1)+ Almost one-shot voidrays, iirc you need 2 auto-shots on even upgrades. Here the Raven can be good when there are no Htemplars close. Not to forget the unecessary micro, which is for almost any tactic the reason its not used or only on the highest of levels. 2)+ Safer vs warp-prisms (one-shot and will hit no matter how fast the warp prism travels)
TvT - quickly countered by Cyclone and or Viking which are common anyways. But also here, you can use it as utility to trade, or have a high cost scout that can jump back anywhere / defend / attack weak points etc. So as utility I'd not use it as a beginning unit of a 2 base.
Again here the follow up Raven can be usefuul against mech units, such as siege tanks, of course... vikings are soft-countering this (you will lose the raven with poor control, or at latest after applying your disables onto the tanks - which is not bad)
So in general - yes the BC will deal some damage, but has a very high cost which is hard to make up for quick. And it will deal damage to your macro. So either play this strategy only, to learn that. Or go with cheaper harras units that don't affect your strategy too much.
PS: I just came back to this game so I'm not the best. Just my experience so far.
I tried it before expo by also dropping then expo behind.. But counter attacks are quite strong against it. Also it costs a huge lot of ressources.
Like i wrote i tried it in tvz and tvp. The whole point is, you pretend to do standard reaper expo, and when they notice that something is wrong its to late. Obviously you will lose to allins if you dont scout them, but thats why you have reaper, if you dont see drones or 3rd base, you can easily just not build fusion core and do standard 1-1-1 into 3-1-1. I havent played this opening much but i think it can definetally catch people of guard. And even if dont do much damage with opening bc, it still crazy good unit in straight up fight. They will be forced to spend gas on units which counter bc (coruptors/hydras etc), which will mean less banes against your mmm. Against prottoss like you wrote you can snipe colosus/ht with bc's. Which again makes your mmm that much easier to micro.
On February 24 2019 05:50 skdsk wrote: anyone tried bc rush after expo?
Yes, this is a standard build in TvZ even at the pro level. It's fallen off a bit because it got dual nerfed on the most recent patch but it's still strong.
I've seen Juggernaut Jason try to do that build against TLO yesterday ! So it's still a thing ;-)
For reference, in the end Jason cancelled the BC and went for emergency tanks and a viking after scouting a quick Lair from TLO, defended the roach-nydus all-in and won, but no BCs were made
from mech point of view mostly.., vs carriers I know widow mines are quite efficient vs voidrays of course 1-3 ghosts...
Of course I like to use some ravens to disable them with low food, but that might be too much gas invested.
vs carrier only: A) Some thors, some widow mines, ravens, viking, mass BC. But voidrays are really strong vs bc. B) Mass Thor (some widow mines) vs Carrier, + Liberators vs Interceptors. But again spread voidrays deal good damage vs armored air.
On March 01 2019 00:48 broto wrote: Hi how do you deal in TVP with:
a) mass voidray / carrier (+ some support)
b) carrier/tempest (+ some support)
from mech point of view mostly.., vs carriers I know widow mines are quite efficient vs voidrays of course 1-3 ghosts...
Of course I like to use some ravens to disable them with low food, but that might be too much gas invested.
vs carrier only: A) Some thors, some widow mines, ravens, viking, mass BC. But voidrays are really strong vs bc. B) Mass Thor (some widow mines) vs Carrier, + Liberators vs Interceptors. But again spread voidrays deal good damage vs armored air.
???
I assume this is pretty low MMR? I don't feel voidray are a real threat at diamond+ level.
To answer you; the general answer for protoss air transition when you're meching is cyclones. Cyclones with mag field accelerator dismantle all protoss air units. Lock on with mag field deals 400 damage over 14 seconds, which means one lock on will kill all protoss air unit except a carrier which will be left with 50 HP.
Thors can be good for their range against carriers but will get wrecked by Tempest massive damage bonus.
In late game you also need to add vikings to the cyclones. Their range and kiting are good tools. You can fight a maxed out air army as long as you split and engage properly and don't get stormed. It's hard but doable.
Widow mines are situational, they can be great to snipe interceptors, and mass droping widowmine is also a viable strategy but harder to pull off.
On March 01 2019 00:48 broto wrote: Hi how do you deal in TVP with:
a) mass voidray / carrier (+ some support)
b) carrier/tempest (+ some support)
from mech point of view mostly.., vs carriers I know widow mines are quite efficient vs voidrays of course 1-3 ghosts...
Of course I like to use some ravens to disable them with low food, but that might be too much gas invested.
vs carrier only: A) Some thors, some widow mines, ravens, viking, mass BC. But voidrays are really strong vs bc. B) Mass Thor (some widow mines) vs Carrier, + Liberators vs Interceptors. But again spread voidrays deal good damage vs armored air.
???
To answer you; the general answer for protoss air transition when you're meching is cyclones. Cyclones with mag field accelerator dismantle all protoss air units. Lock on with mag field deals 400 damage over 14 seconds, which means one lock on will kill all protoss air unit except a carrier which will be left with 50 HP.
Thors can be good for their range against carriers but will get wrecked by Tempest massive damage bonus.
In late game you also need to add vikings to the cyclones. Their range and kiting are good tools. You can fight a maxed out air army as long as you split and engage properly and don't get stormed. It's hard but doable.
Widow mines are situational, they can be great to snipe interceptors, and mass droping widowmine is also a viable strategy but harder to pull off.
In a Unit tester it's indeed doable. However in a real game
i TRIED cyclones (with some hellions), but lost each battle vs Carrier/Tempest - before that it is okay. They just get demolished by interceptors, even though I had max armor. So how do you do that... 1) The prooss doesn't let himself surround from all sides. 2) The lock never finishes a carrier, when the Cyclones die in ... even 2 seconds. ideas: 2x Lock per Carrier? That's also a bunch of micro for each enemy unit that MIGHT EVEN BE STACKED UP, so even harder to micro with Lock, not to forget you have to micro-ignore interceptors each second of the battle. I feel the classik viking mass is better to play, but still kinda weak.
Actually I won the game in the end because of macro/expands and the Protosses have fewer units when teching to air, so you get an advantage.. But the Actual fight should be better doable.
With Thors widow mines vikings to finish, but the vikings died extremly quick too. (can't make too many thors without self-hindering yourself lol) Io thors should have +1 armor (for being so slow and fat) and be slightly less fat.
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What about Ravens? When they disablel the Carriersj, and interceptors wont fight. I feel the ravens can be sniped too quickly from long range, to make any use of the Interceptor Missile's-relative short range? It is a really good food battle - 2 for 6.
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PS: Testing in unit tester: 6 Supply: 2 Cyclone vs 1 Carrier - win easily 12 supply: 4 Cyclone vs 2 Carrier - lose with 1 carrier left very low red health, using dual lock. 18 supply: 6 cyclone vs 3 carrier - 1st Try: lose with 2 carrier left very low red health, using dual lock each. No perfect spread of cyclones - because that wouldn*t be doable in a real game. 2nd Try: Perfect Spread with Rapid Fire on 2 carriers: Win with 2 cyclones left 36 Supply: 12 Cyclones vs 6 carrier - lose first tries... 6th try: win with 1 cyclone red health
So the thing the more carriers there are, the more they support each other by killing of low health quickly which stops the dps onto an almost dead carrier.
So from these tests, I do not agree you can call Cyclones a good counter - maybe the better strategy allround-unit.
I would say you need the Vikings much more quicker... And ghosts vs Storm? Perfect micro is thusly not possible when you need to do other things, in addition. Regarding the second try.
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Widow mines are situational, they can be great to snipe interceptors, and mass droping widowmine is also a viable strategy but harder to pull off.
Nice you mention that. I actually did this and it is really effective and deadly vs air BECAUSE it can't get stormed before doing its job... But with Bio Play - where I had Medivacs and Widow Mines already - and simply added many more widow mines to fit into all the medivacs. However I feel if the protoss is good too (so if he doesn*t face it the first or second time)... the medivacs will die too quickly and units in them. Which is where some voidrays are really good. (of course with drilling claws)
EPT
