So a long time ago, I would open with a 1 gate gas cyber core [no scout] into 20 nexus w/o any units. After the nexus I would cronoboost a MSC to defend a reaper that may be coming.
However, I recently stopped doing this kind of play and switched over to a double gas opening which let me get out a faster MSC and stalker. This made it easy to defend 2 rax bunker marine pushes, 3 rax marine pushes and 3 rax marine scv all ins, because I actually had units by the time the marines push in.
So, I am wondering if there is anything that can be done to defend the various marine rushes while going for a greedy no scout 1 gate Fast expand, (getting the natural nexus @ 3:35).
9 pylon [Positioned to make a reaper wall] Cronoboost Cronoboost 13 gateway [''] 14 gas [No populating as it finishes. Simply rally in probes. This will time perfectly w/cyber core to have 100 gas when it finishes to make MSC] Cronoboost 15 pylon number 2 [Positioned if needed to make reaper wall, otherwise somewhere to power first gateway in case pylon 1 goes down] 17/18 Core depending on worker pairing 20 Natural Nexus 20 MSC <= First unit
From here out the build can deviate. Generally I add on a second gas and a third pylon and then going for a stalker into tech than warp gate.
Essentially, there is no scouting, and the marines are first seen when they are within vision of the nexus. The only unit out will be a mothership core and it will be about 1min from a photon overcharge. Is it even possible to hold? If so, what is necessary to stay alive?
I would like detailed responses on how [If possible without scouting] to hold: 1) A 2 rax marine Bunker push 2) A 3 rax Marine SCv all in.
replay Note, that although I do hold off the rush, I hold it off opening up with double gas, which isn't economically ideal. I want to know if its possible to hold off this push using the build above, as every time i use the above build I die to early marine rushes like these. http://ggtracker.com/matches/5740821
This is an [H] thread, so you actually must post a replay. Not only is it against the guidelines not to post a replay, but it also makes it much harder to help you out.
On January 17 2015 14:49 KingofGods wrote: 2 rax is barely a thing tvp because of nexus cannon. 3 rax? That's unheard of. Just cancel nat nexus and nexus cannon main.
My problem is that the nexus cannon isn't ready in time and I take considerable damage from the marines because the MSC can't fight or else it will die and I have no other units done yet, except a stalker in production.
On January 17 2015 14:45 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Whats wrong with scouting?
It delays your nexus by about 10 or so seconds. Not too huge I guess, but it annoys me quite a bit.
Scouting is part of the game and the delay is not large enough to matter for you. Parting uses the 3 second faster nexus for an additional sentry. You? Not so much.
If you go for an adaptive build and refuse to scout because you don't like it, you'll have to live with those losses.
On January 17 2015 14:49 KingofGods wrote: 2 rax is barely a thing tvp because of nexus cannon. 3 rax? That's unheard of. Just cancel nat nexus and nexus cannon main.
He's talking about 11/11 proxy 2 rax with marines and bunkers... not a WOL stim push...
On January 17 2015 15:47 vhapter wrote: This is an [H] thread, so you actually must post a replay. Not only is it against the guidelines not to post a replay, but it also makes it much harder to help you out.
Done.
On January 17 2015 16:17 SC2Toastie wrote: Scouting is part of the game and the delay is not large enough to matter for you. Parting uses the 3 second faster nexus for an additional sentry. You? Not so much.
If you go for an adaptive build and refuse to scout because you don't like it, you'll have to live with those losses.
I may not be a pro player, but I do feel the effects of optimization and mineral stacking in the early game. I notice the lack of or extra minerals and it really does affect my builds.
When it gets to late game, you are absolutely correct.
Anyways, are you saying that it isn't possible to defend an early marine rush with the above opening? If so, I would rather open something safer than scout, like a double gas MSC stalker play.
i'm sorry but if you are losing to early marines as a protoss you are doing something wrong. nexus cannon will stop any terran all in. just build your buildings near your nexus if it's happening to you that much.
On January 17 2015 18:41 TheOne26 wrote: i'm sorry but if you are losing to early marines as a protoss you are doing something wrong. nexus cannon will stop any terran all in. just build your buildings near your nexus if it's happening to you that much.
Not exactly true. I've seen terrans go 2 rax in their main/natural, bunker the natural just to take down the nexus before you can use photon overcharge to save it, and then contain the protoss, taking a huge economic lead from there. I think it was someone playing against Rain on stream, but I'm not entirely not sure. I know the map was Merry Go Round, which makes this build harder to scout. It's basically an economic version of the 2 rax, which gives you a huge lead much more easily. On top of that, it doesn't require floating your buildings all the way back to your main in case you can't finish off your opponent.
@OP Your build seems kind of wonky. Your second geysers is very late, so you can't make a stalker right way. I don't know why you want to early stalker, but I'd probably go 13 gate 13 gas and chrono boost both my stalker and msc (and send my msc to scout), or go double gas at 15.
What I saw in the replay is just a regular 2 rax, which you can actually beat with a msc expand. It's not necessarily easy, but it's been done at pro level a few times. You want to prevent the bunker from going up (I try attacking the scv building it and then shift clicking it a few times to make sure your probe chases it as it switches position while building) if possible. But most importantly, you want to get a good surround on the marines with your probes in order to lower his marine count as much as possible and buy time for your stalker to come out. Once your stalker is out, you want to prevent new marines from entering the bunker if it did go up. If there are too many marines left that you can't prevent incoming marines from getting into the bunker - that is to say, you need to protect your probes from the ones already in the bunker -, the situation gets hairy. Photon overcharge may help, but it only shoots so far and there most likely will be a bunker outside its range.
I think it's good to check inside your main after gateway for proxy 2 rax on 2 players map. I've lost so many games on Overgrowth because I didn't scout my base, so now I do it every game (I usually even check my natural). If you see barracks, just pull 8-10 probes and never let a bunker go down.
Otherwise, it's pretty straightforward to beat any marine based push, even an unscouted 6 proxy rax. Be active with your first units (if no reaper has entered your base at 5:00, check your natural to see if no bunker is building here), chrono stalkers non stop while buying time with msc/zealot if you have scouted the cheese, and don't be reluctant to pull probes (probes help a big deal against non stim/combat shield marines). Once you manage to reach 3 stalkers with the help of overcharge, you can pretty much beat any amount of marines with accurate micro and proceed to destroy your opponent's army and then his buildings. Don't overcommit to the defense of your expansion if it finished ; if you can't hold it, your opponent has most likely not expanded yet and you can deal with that loss because you went eco.
On January 18 2015 01:23 vhapter wrote: @OP Your build seems kind of wonky. Your second geysers is very late, so you can't make a stalker right way. I don't know why you want to early stalker, but I'd probably go 13 gate 13 gas and chrono boost both my stalker and msc (and send my msc to scout), or go double gas at 15.
What I saw in the replay is just a regular 2 rax, which you can actually beat with a msc expand. It's not necessarily easy, but it's been done at pro level a few times. You want to prevent the bunker from going up (I try attacking the scv building it and then shift clicking it a few times to make sure your probe chases it as it switches position while building) if possible. But most importantly, you want to get a good surround on the marines with your probes in order to lower his marine count as much as possible and buy time for your stalker to come out. Once your stalker is out, you want to prevent new marines from entering the bunker if it did go up. If there are too many marines left that you can't prevent incoming marines from getting into the bunker - that is to say, you need to protect your probes from the ones already in the bunker -, the situation gets hairy. Photon overcharge may help, but it only shoots so far and there most likely will be a bunker outside its range.
The build is a 1 gas MSC expand, which is greedy and gets the nexus first. I don't see how the second gas geyser is late, because it is gotten AS SOON as the funds are available after the nexus and MSC.
It is very simple to defend a marine rush with the build you described, because you would have units in time. But I suppose it does answer my question, in that it is not possible to defend an unscouted marine scv bunker rush.
No way to prepare for 2rax without scouting unless you do it blindly. Although with good (good as in parting level) micro you can still beat 2rax/3rax scv allins without scouting.
On January 17 2015 18:41 TheOne26 wrote: i'm sorry but if you are losing to early marines as a protoss you are doing something wrong. nexus cannon will stop any terran all in. just build your buildings near your nexus if it's happening to you that much.
seems like a lot of terrans really just think nexus cannon can magically win you the game. 11/11 hits before you have nexus cannon.......................................
That's not the build you did in the replay, but I'm not going to go over that again. Basically, I was talking about how you may be able to optimize that particular build, but I guess it's fine either way.
You should read my previous post again though. I clearly state that you can hold off the push "with a msc expand", but also described how to do so in detail. I wasn't talking about a stalker + msc opener at all, that was just part of my brief analysis of the replay in the first paragraph.
If you are worried about these builds though, you can do 2 things to play a safer style:
Your first option is to gateway scout, which isn't as detrimental to your economy as you seem to believe... as long as the map doesn't have poorly optimized mineral income (try that on daybreak and overgrowth, then compare delayed your msc is on daybreak). I like this one because it allows you to go 1 stalker 1 sentry 2 gates safely. That's a nice stylistic choice, an interesting way to deal with concussive shell first pokes (standard pokes, not that Hammer garbage), and also particularly good on maps where photon overcharge doesn't cover your natural properly, such as Akilon Wastes. As long as you don't scout the terran going gas first or doing something crazy, going stalker sentry with a relatively quick wg (that is, NOT after your robo, which you can do if you go triple stalker) is generally fine.
Your second option is to send a probe to your natural soon after building your cybercore - either right away or the next probe that comes out. Check your natural to see if there are any ebay blocks and then briefly scout your third or location where you'd expect to see a proxy. This is interesting because it also helps you rule out proxy factories in that particular location. But the thing is, you can't scout more than one location or go too far from your natural if you want to send that probe back to build your nexus. But you can send your scouting probe to the terran's base (you must obviously avoid the reaper's path) and see if you can get it, which allows you to confirm if he's going 2-3 rax or just 1 rax into factory.
@xinzoe How good your micro has to be depends a lot on how good your opponent is at 11-11s. Sometimes you can shut down the push very quickly with probes and some micro, but if it gets past this point, things obviously get much harder.
How does getting 2 gases allow you to get faster msc and stalker? With the 1 gas opening you have enough to start the msc and stalker immediately after the nexus. 2 gases is only good if you scout it really early and go for fast 2 gateways, because it allows you to constantly produce 2 stalkers at a time.
Saturating the gas slowly to have exactly 100 gas when you can start the msc, seems retarded. You are only delaying your stalker/warpgate /first tech unnecessarily.
Regarding the 11/11 (I assume that's what you mean for 2 rax bunker rush) you can't beat it without scouting it. Either you move on to the next game when you see 10 marines and scvs popping up right after you canceled your zealot, or you early scout, that's about it. I suppose in some maps you can also try to scout outside your natural in the most obvious proxy spots.
I don't get what you mean for 3 rax either. Is it 3 rax proxy, or 3 rax inside the main? If it's inside the main, it can be held with a 1 gate expo, because you'll have overcharge up in time. Obviously you need some sort of probe scout, the standard "sneak inside the main at 4:00" should be enough to get additional gateways and chronoboost stalkers out. If it's proxy (skips the OC and pulls only a few scvs) then the defense is the same to the 11/11.
I don't know why you're saying that you can't possibly defend it without scouting it. While you're definitely in for some trouble is the terran is really good at it, even pros fail to do this build properly sometimes. Here's a good example of how your initial reaction can change everything:
On January 19 2015 08:08 vhapter wrote: I don't know why you're saying that you can't possibly defend it without scouting it. While you're definitely in for some trouble is the terran is really good at it, even pros fail to do this build properly sometimes. Here's a good example of how your initial reaction can change everything:
Flash didn't pull all of his SCVs. If he did, there was no way hero could surround the marines. Flash also made a big micro mistake, whereas hero's micro was perfect, and outside the capability of an average TL user. However, you're right, this VOD shows a blind hold of that variation with no scv pull.
On January 19 2015 08:08 vhapter wrote: I don't know why you're saying that you can't possibly defend it without scouting it. While you're definitely in for some trouble is the terran is really good at it, even pros fail to do this build properly sometimes. Here's a good example of how your initial reaction can change everything:
Flash didn't pull all of his SCVs. If he did, there was no way hero could surround the marines. Flash also made a big micro mistake, whereas hero's micro was perfect, and outside the capability of an average TL user. However, you're right, this VOD shows a blind hold of that variation with no scv pull.
Oh yeah, Flash definitely slipped up. How easy or difficult the hold is depends a lot of the terran's positioning, but I think many terrans on the ladder aren't careful enough either.
Also, I don't think there's much to how herO microed his probes. Feel free to disagree though. Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but I find it pretty straightforward to target the scv building the bunker and then surround the marines before they get to safety as long as the terran doesn't have very good positioning. Or at least, that's how I beat most 11-11s. The best thing to do is to prevent it from happening entirely imo, so if you can't lower the marine count right away and stop the bunker from going up, you're probably fucked.
I can't say much about the version in which the terran pulls most of his scvs. I recall having to play a battle of attrition and rely on photon overcharge against this style.
@Vhapter, the second option seems interesting, im going to try it out. Also I reread your first post and I understand now. I think we misunderstood each other because we didn't know what the other person was referencing.
I think you should also give the gateway scout suggestion a try. I've always been greedy when it comes to scouting in most matchups, especially PvT (since WoL). When I say that gateway scouting doesn't affect your build much on maps where your mineral income is properly optimzed, I mean it. As long as your msc pops out early enough to deal with the reaper, you're in great shape imo.
The annoying thing about gateway scouting is that it's almost useless against anything that isn't proxy barracks. I love my 4:00-4:15 scout where if my opponent went reaper expo, I can see everything before the 2 marines are out (if he went for a factory followup or additional barracks) and often even force the reaper back to chase down my probe; if my opponent has marines, I can check the CC timing to understand whether he went 11 gas, 15 gas, or gasless marine expand.
Compared to a gateway scout, you save about 50 minerals. Is it worth it to spend 50 minerals every game in order to not lose against proxy barracks? It depends on how often that happens. Probably something about 1 game out of 20. Which doesn't make it worth it for me.
Nowadays I'm doing something like this, for example on overgrowth:
Scouting proxy barracks at 3:00~3:10 might be enough. I also bank the 4th chronoboost until I confirmed no proxy. Which means I can always let my zealot finish, not start the nexus, and chronoboost stalker& msc out as soon as core finishes.
The reason why I think it's optimal is because you need to take a weird route so that the probe isn't intercepted by a possible reaper anyway.
@KingAlphard Most of the times I've seen Zest gateway scout, he went 1 stalker 1 sentry and 2 gates instead of 3 stalkers on 1 gate. By doing that, you can rule out gas first builds - which are easier to deal with if you do a 3 stalker opening - and any other funky build that could be tricky to handle without stalkers 2 and 3 very early. Needless to say, this also rules out proxy 2 raxes. And if the terran doesn't try to trap your probe by getting a second supply depot earlier than usual, you can send it back.
As for cybercore scouting, you may be able to chrono boost your stalker and msc reactively, but only if you always bank your 4th chrono boost preemptively until you rule out the build. By the time you're done scouting the outskirts of your natural, it's probably too late to chrono boost your probes a 4th time. That puts you 2 probes behind - your scouting probe will most likely not make it back to your base, and you won't be able to chrono probes a 4th time until your msc comes out and your third pylon finishes. That being said, cybercore scouting gives you more mid game specific information if the terran's ramp isn't walled, so that's something to consider if you're doing a blink build and intend to skip detection.
@SatedSC2 Proxy 2 gates are much harder to hold blindly though. But you can still hold them if they're not in your main. Although there's that game where Rain scouted Huk's proxy in his main no Overgrowth, refused to go up to 3 gates, and didn't send his probes across the map like PartinG did against Classic. PartinG vs Classic on Habitation Station shows that you can win against an unscouted proxy 2 gate if it's not in your main. I've actually done that once or twice.
On January 20 2015 00:45 vhapter wrote: @KingAlphard Most of the times I've seen Zest gateway scout, he went 1 stalker 1 sentry and 2 gates instead of 3 stalkers on 1 gate. By doing that, you can rule out gas first builds - which are easier to deal with if you do a 3 stalker opening - and any other funky build that could be tricky to handle without stalkers 2 and 3 very early. Needless to say, this also rules out proxy 2 raxes. And if the terran doesn't try to trap your probe by getting a second supply depot earlier than usual, you can send it back.
As for cybercore scouting, you may be able to chrono boost your stalker and msc reactively, but only if you always bank your 4th chrono boost preemptively until you rule out the build. By the time you're done scouting the outskirts of your natural, it's probably too late to chrono boost your probes a 4th time. That puts you 2 probes behind - your scouting probe will most likely not make it back to your base, and you won't be able to chrono probes a 4th time until your msc comes out and your third pylon finishes. That being said, cybercore scouting gives you more mid game specific information if the terran's ramp isn't walled, so that's something to consider if you're doing a blink build and intend to skip detection.
Consider that a gateway scout reaches your opponent's base more or less by the time you start your cybernetics core. So, it's only like 20 seconds of advantage, compared to a cyber core scout in the most obvious proxy barracks spots. That doesn't give you any advantage: you'll still have 3 chronoboosts used on probes, you'll still let the zealot finish and start stalker/mothership core.
It's definitely more optimal to scout the proxy where it's placed, because it's closer to your base and it makes you lose less mining time. Naturally, you can't be 100 % sure to find them. But finding them most of the times is enough.
You don't need a ton of stalkers immediately against gas first. Dealing with the first 2 hellions runby can be done with 1 stalker and 1 mothership core. After that, it's all a matter of pulling probes properly against widow mines, and microing your stalkers. I wouldn't say that knowing it's coming at 3:00 instead of 4:15 when it hits at 6:15 (?) is a big deal.
On January 20 2015 00:45 vhapter wrote: @KingAlphard Most of the times I've seen Zest gateway scout, he went 1 stalker 1 sentry and 2 gates instead of 3 stalkers on 1 gate. By doing that, you can rule out gas first builds - which are easier to deal with if you do a 3 stalker opening - and any other funky build that could be tricky to handle without stalkers 2 and 3 very early. Needless to say, this also rules out proxy 2 raxes. And if the terran doesn't try to trap your probe by getting a second supply depot earlier than usual, you can send it back.
As for cybercore scouting, you may be able to chrono boost your stalker and msc reactively, but only if you always bank your 4th chrono boost preemptively until you rule out the build. By the time you're done scouting the outskirts of your natural, it's probably too late to chrono boost your probes a 4th time. That puts you 2 probes behind - your scouting probe will most likely not make it back to your base, and you won't be able to chrono probes a 4th time until your msc comes out and your third pylon finishes. That being said, cybercore scouting gives you more mid game specific information if the terran's ramp isn't walled, so that's something to consider if you're doing a blink build and intend to skip detection.
Consider that a gateway scout reaches your opponent's base more or less by the time you start your cybernetics core. So, it's only like 20 seconds of advantage, compared to a cyber core scout in the most obvious proxy barracks spots. That doesn't give you any advantage: you'll still have 3 chronoboosts used on probes, you'll still let the zealot finish and start stalker/mothership core.
It's definitely more optimal to scout the proxy where it's placed, because it's closer to your base and it makes you lose less mining time. Naturally, you can't be 100 % sure to find them. But finding them most of the times is enough.
You don't need a ton of stalkers immediately against gas first. Dealing with the first 2 hellions runby can be done with 1 stalker and 1 mothership core. After that, it's all a matter of pulling probes properly against widow mines, and microing your stalkers. I wouldn't say that knowing it's coming at 3:00 instead of 4:15 when it hits at 6:15 (?) is a big deal.
Of course you shouldn't spend your 4th chrono boost on probes if you scout a proxy 2 rax. My point is that you don't have to save that chrono boost if you gateway scout and see the terran is playing standard, whereas you have to save it blindly if you cybercore scout.
The thing about scouting gas first openers when you open stalker sentry is that you won't commit to a sentry blindly. If you're going msc expand with a robo and 3 stalker, you can definitely deal with gas first without scouting. Dealing with 2 hellions when you have 1-2 stalkers and a msc is one thing, but having 1 stalker and 1 sentry when a marine widow drop hits with hellions lurking outside your natural is very different.
Knowing it's coming at 4:15 is perfectly fine since you won't have commited to making a sentry yet. But as far as I know, you can't rely on this delayed probe scout against non-reaper openers, since there will be marines out to greet your probe. If you gateway scout and see the barracks finished at 3:00, you know for a fact that it's a gas first opener.
Of course, cybercore scouting has its pros, but we've already talked about them. If you think the pros of cybercore scouting outweigh those of gateway scouting for the build you're doing or your style in general, that's fine. One of the pros of gateway scouting is reliability, which is something to take into account. Also, I don't think scouting whether the terran went for a factory or 2-3 rax after the initial reaper is particularly important at all. Whenever I scout for proxies in PvT after my cyberccore, I always send my probe back to build my nexus and get 3 stalkers anyway.
What you ask is like "how can i survive a proxy 2 gate + cyber" with hatch pool hatch or racks cc cc. If you play greedy, you have to either take a risk or do a scout. You cant think there is a build which plays out greedy, nonscout and save against wired all ins.
But when i would still be on this way, no scout, greed style, i would never go 20/21 nexus into MSC. 20/21 nexus and then directly a stalker(chrono) should help you way more against wired all ins. You stalker can cite the marines, you brobes will support the stalker and with 2 stalkers and one msc you should be able to hold 2 proxy baracks with the lose of maybe 4-6 brobes. Thats still a good number despite the fact, that you should be arround 8 worker ahead and 2nd base.
3 racks (scv) pull is such a all in (do or die) without any transition at all, that it has to be scoutet to have easier times (or no greed play). You can compare it to "cc, racks, cc, 2xengi, 2xgas"-builds against 4 gates. No scout + greedy = death, when you enemy all ins. You have to scout or it is just a gamble.
You need to ask yourself what the point of such a fast Nexus is versus such a committed attack:
If you survive with the Nexus intact, and you got that Nexus 30 seconds faster than the typical FE, you're really far ahead. If you survive with the Nexus intact, with no critical losses you're still ahead.
StarCraft isn't a game about beating your opponent by leaps and bounds, it's about gaining as many advantages as possible and winning by any margin (which is typically small if you're playing against equally competent and skilled players).
It sounds like you're operating on scrub logic; you want to play your own game without respecting what your opponent is doing.
On January 20 2015 04:05 Gamegene wrote: You need to ask yourself what the point of such a fast Nexus is versus such a committed attack:
If you survive with the Nexus intact, and you got that Nexus 30 seconds faster than the typical FE, you're really far ahead. If you survive with the Nexus intact, with no critical losses you're still ahead.
StarCraft isn't a game about beating your opponent by leaps and bounds, it's about gaining as many advantages as possible and winning by any margin (which is typically small if you're playing against equally competent and skilled players).
It sounds like you're operating on scrub logic; you want to play your own game without respecting what your opponent is doing.
The point of this fast nexus is to have a similar expansion timing as a player who is going for a reaper expand. I feel that if you get your natural expansion after a terran, you are slightly behind in economy.
It may be scrub logic, but I would like to maximize economy while minimizing risk to all ins at the same time. I personally don't like to probe scout in early game. That's a stylistic choice of mine, and I would prefer to play a safer opening if necessary rather than probe scout.
On January 20 2015 03:27 Clonester wrote: What you ask is like "how can i survive a proxy 2 gate + cyber" with hatch pool hatch or racks cc cc. If you play greedy, you have to either take a risk or do a scout. You cant think there is a build which plays out greedy, nonscout and save against wired all ins.
But when i would still be on this way, no scout, greed style, i would never go 20/21 nexus into MSC. 20/21 nexus and then directly a stalker(chrono) should help you way more against wired all ins. You stalker can cite the marines, you brobes will support the stalker and with 2 stalkers and one msc you should be able to hold 2 proxy baracks with the lose of maybe 4-6 brobes. Thats still a good number despite the fact, that you should be arround 8 worker ahead and 2nd base.
3 racks (scv) pull is such a all in (do or die) without any transition at all, that it has to be scoutet to have easier times (or no greed play). You can compare it to "cc, racks, cc, 2xengi, 2xgas"-builds against 4 gates. No scout + greedy = death, when you enemy all ins. You have to scout or it is just a gamble.
To be fair, the protoss equivalent of Hatch pool hatch or racks CC CC would be a nexus first. The build that I am talking about although greedy as well, is not as greedy as nexus first, hatch pool hatch, or racks CC CC.
The main problem with going stalker after the nexus with my build is that it will not be out in time to deal with the reaper even if it is cronoboosted. There will be about 10-20 seconds of time where the reaper can attack probes.
Nexus starts @ 3:35. You have 0 minerals at this point. Now you need to wait to get 125 minerals before you can start the stalker. For reference, the MSC starts at 3:43, we have 100 mins at this point. The MSC builds quickly only 20 seconds with cronoboost, and finishes just in time for the reaper. A stalker cost more minerals and takes 32 seconds with a cronoboost.
On January 20 2015 00:45 vhapter wrote: @KingAlphard Most of the times I've seen Zest gateway scout, he went 1 stalker 1 sentry and 2 gates instead of 3 stalkers on 1 gate. By doing that, you can rule out gas first builds - which are easier to deal with if you do a 3 stalker opening - and any other funky build that could be tricky to handle without stalkers 2 and 3 very early. Needless to say, this also rules out proxy 2 raxes. And if the terran doesn't try to trap your probe by getting a second supply depot earlier than usual, you can send it back.
As for cybercore scouting, you may be able to chrono boost your stalker and msc reactively, but only if you always bank your 4th chrono boost preemptively until you rule out the build. By the time you're done scouting the outskirts of your natural, it's probably too late to chrono boost your probes a 4th time. That puts you 2 probes behind - your scouting probe will most likely not make it back to your base, and you won't be able to chrono probes a 4th time until your msc comes out and your third pylon finishes. That being said, cybercore scouting gives you more mid game specific information if the terran's ramp isn't walled, so that's something to consider if you're doing a blink build and intend to skip detection.
Consider that a gateway scout reaches your opponent's base more or less by the time you start your cybernetics core. So, it's only like 20 seconds of advantage, compared to a cyber core scout in the most obvious proxy barracks spots. That doesn't give you any advantage: you'll still have 3 chronoboosts used on probes, you'll still let the zealot finish and start stalker/mothership core.
It's definitely more optimal to scout the proxy where it's placed, because it's closer to your base and it makes you lose less mining time. Naturally, you can't be 100 % sure to find them. But finding them most of the times is enough.
You don't need a ton of stalkers immediately against gas first. Dealing with the first 2 hellions runby can be done with 1 stalker and 1 mothership core. After that, it's all a matter of pulling probes properly against widow mines, and microing your stalkers. I wouldn't say that knowing it's coming at 3:00 instead of 4:15 when it hits at 6:15 (?) is a big deal.
Of course you shouldn't spend your 4th chrono boost on probes if you scout a proxy 2 rax. My point is that you don't have to save that chrono boost if you gateway scout and see the terran is playing standard, whereas you have to save it blindly if you cybercore scout.
The thing about scouting gas first openers when you open stalker sentry is that you won't commit to a sentry blindly. If you're going msc expand with a robo and 3 stalker, you can definitely deal with gas first without scouting. Dealing with 2 hellions when you have 1-2 stalkers and a msc is one thing, but having 1 stalker and 1 sentry when a marine widow drop hits with hellions lurking outside your natural is very different.
Knowing it's coming at 4:15 is perfectly fine since you won't have commited to making a sentry yet. But as far as I know, you can't rely on this delayed probe scout against non-reaper openers, since there will be marines out to greet your probe. If you gateway scout and see the barracks finished at 3:00, you know for a fact that it's a gas first opener.
Of course, cybercore scouting has its pros, but we've already talked about them. If you think the pros of cybercore scouting outweigh those of gateway scouting for the build you're doing or your style in general, that's fine. One of the pros of gateway scouting is reliability, which is something to take into account. Also, I don't think scouting whether the terran went for a factory or 2-3 rax after the initial reaper is particularly important at all. Whenever I scout for proxies in PvT after my cyberccore, I always send my probe back to build my nexus and get 3 stalkers anyway.
Delaying a chronoboost is not nearly as bad as scouting 1 minute earlier. It's something like 10 minerals lost.
You can still gather enough information even if there are marines. If he stays behind the wall in his main, for example, it's most likely gas first. A common gas first variation even gets the reactor straightaway, skipping any marine. Otherwise, you should be able to see the timing of the command center in the natural. With good reaction, you won't lose a probe to marines anyway, so you can always come back again.
How is scouting if he goes for factory or not after the first rax is not important? You need to be prepared against a 1-1-1, especially if you're playing blink or stargate.
Building 3 stalkers, seems overly safe to me. I generally go with 1 stalker 1 sentry against standard openings.
On January 20 2015 00:45 vhapter wrote: @KingAlphard Most of the times I've seen Zest gateway scout, he went 1 stalker 1 sentry and 2 gates instead of 3 stalkers on 1 gate. By doing that, you can rule out gas first builds - which are easier to deal with if you do a 3 stalker opening - and any other funky build that could be tricky to handle without stalkers 2 and 3 very early. Needless to say, this also rules out proxy 2 raxes. And if the terran doesn't try to trap your probe by getting a second supply depot earlier than usual, you can send it back.
As for cybercore scouting, you may be able to chrono boost your stalker and msc reactively, but only if you always bank your 4th chrono boost preemptively until you rule out the build. By the time you're done scouting the outskirts of your natural, it's probably too late to chrono boost your probes a 4th time. That puts you 2 probes behind - your scouting probe will most likely not make it back to your base, and you won't be able to chrono probes a 4th time until your msc comes out and your third pylon finishes. That being said, cybercore scouting gives you more mid game specific information if the terran's ramp isn't walled, so that's something to consider if you're doing a blink build and intend to skip detection.
Consider that a gateway scout reaches your opponent's base more or less by the time you start your cybernetics core. So, it's only like 20 seconds of advantage, compared to a cyber core scout in the most obvious proxy barracks spots. That doesn't give you any advantage: you'll still have 3 chronoboosts used on probes, you'll still let the zealot finish and start stalker/mothership core.
It's definitely more optimal to scout the proxy where it's placed, because it's closer to your base and it makes you lose less mining time. Naturally, you can't be 100 % sure to find them. But finding them most of the times is enough.
You don't need a ton of stalkers immediately against gas first. Dealing with the first 2 hellions runby can be done with 1 stalker and 1 mothership core. After that, it's all a matter of pulling probes properly against widow mines, and microing your stalkers. I wouldn't say that knowing it's coming at 3:00 instead of 4:15 when it hits at 6:15 (?) is a big deal.
Of course you shouldn't spend your 4th chrono boost on probes if you scout a proxy 2 rax. My point is that you don't have to save that chrono boost if you gateway scout and see the terran is playing standard, whereas you have to save it blindly if you cybercore scout.
The thing about scouting gas first openers when you open stalker sentry is that you won't commit to a sentry blindly. If you're going msc expand with a robo and 3 stalker, you can definitely deal with gas first without scouting. Dealing with 2 hellions when you have 1-2 stalkers and a msc is one thing, but having 1 stalker and 1 sentry when a marine widow drop hits with hellions lurking outside your natural is very different.
Knowing it's coming at 4:15 is perfectly fine since you won't have commited to making a sentry yet. But as far as I know, you can't rely on this delayed probe scout against non-reaper openers, since there will be marines out to greet your probe. If you gateway scout and see the barracks finished at 3:00, you know for a fact that it's a gas first opener.
Of course, cybercore scouting has its pros, but we've already talked about them. If you think the pros of cybercore scouting outweigh those of gateway scouting for the build you're doing or your style in general, that's fine. One of the pros of gateway scouting is reliability, which is something to take into account. Also, I don't think scouting whether the terran went for a factory or 2-3 rax after the initial reaper is particularly important at all. Whenever I scout for proxies in PvT after my cyberccore, I always send my probe back to build my nexus and get 3 stalkers anyway.
Delaying a chronoboost is not nearly as bad as scouting 1 minute earlier. It's something like 10 minerals lost.
You can still gather enough information even if there are marines. If he stays behind the wall in his main, for example, it's most likely gas first. A common gas first variation even gets the reactor straightaway, skipping any marine. Otherwise, you should be able to see the timing of the command center in the natural. With good reaction, you won't lose a probe to marines anyway, so you can always come back again.
How is scouting if he goes for factory or not after the first rax is not important? You need to be prepared against a 1-1-1, especially if you're playing blink or stargate.
Building 3 stalkers, seems overly safe to me. I generally go with 1 stalker 1 sentry against standard openings.
Most pros don't really scout the rax factory transition when going blink or stargate (well, if they go stargate, then the oracle scouts it), but pros go into 2-3 rax much more often. Like I said though, I think it's valuable to know whether you're up against a factory opener if you're going blink, but completely irrelevant if you're going robo. My response against 1-1-1s doesn't really change - I always rally my second and third observers to my mineral line until I scout the terran's main and leave my msc between my 2 bases.
Building 3 stalkers is the most standard opener that every pro did last year much more often than anything else. It's enough to kite marines if there's a marauderless poke. 3 stalkers costs as much as 1 stalker, 1 sentry, and an extra gate. Unless you skip the extra gate an play greedy as hell, I don't see how these builds are much different. A 3-stalker opener allows you to kite marines all day (since you can 2-shot them) whereas going 1 stalker and 1 sentry doesn't. You'd have to warp in 2 extra stalkers for that, which disrupts your build more than skipping the gateway (the extra gateway does have its pros though). But on the other hand, your early sentry will have more energy in the mid game and can be helpful against marauder pokes, which makes it much riskier to kite bio. The extra sentry energy doesn't matter much for most players though.
On January 21 2015 00:28 LoneYoShi wrote: It's probably because I play terran, but I find this thread extremely obnoxious and borderline offensive.
What about it is obnoxious/ borderline offensive? Its just a simple question on whether something can be done blindly or not.
Re-reading the OP, I seem to have misinterpreted it. You're right, my apologies !
Edit: to clarify, I thought that you were complaining that you couldn't hold marine rushes while going with the greediest build and with no scout. But after going through the thread again, I see this is not your intent and that I misunderstood the discussion. Hence, my apologies ! :-)
On January 21 2015 00:28 LoneYoShi wrote: It's probably because I play terran, but I find this thread extremely obnoxious and borderline offensive.
What about it is obnoxious/ borderline offensive? Its just a simple question on whether something can be done blindly or not.
Re-reading the OP, I seem to have misinterpreted it. You're right, my apologies !
Edit: to clarify, I thought that you were complaining that you couldn't hold marine rushes while going with the greediest build and with no scout. But after going through the thread again, I see this is not your intent and that I misunderstood the discussion. Hence, my apologies ! :-)
The greediest build protoss can do is nexus first, not msc expand. But it's none of your concern which build he's talking about though. We've even seen players like Jaedong hold off a proxy 2 gate while going hatch first once and that's a fucking feat of skill, not borderline offensive or obnoxious.
It's a great thing players attempt to win games like that, even against the odds. Much better than an Idra instant ragequit, even though it's not as funny. If you're offended by someone attempting to pull off something difficult like that - which takes so much more skill than a regular hold -, that's something you should keep to yourself. I don't know why the hell the mods haven't warned you yet, but you broke 2 rules in a single post - you were not respectful and refused to watch the replay before posting.
For those saying 3rax is not a thing theres an EU player that levels accounts to gm with just 3 rax alone in all 3 matchups. He Streams and Ive seen him beat incredibnly high level players like MouzHope on EU dispite not being nowhere near that level without his 3 raxes. Its extremely hard to stop and even harder than 2 rax because hes more all in with the 3rd rax rather than orbital command. Kinda made me wonder why npbpdy did that before simce if you orbital you float minerals if you 2 rax. , Im high master protoss and Ive become a victin of his WHILE SCOUTING. To defend 3 rax there is literraly no room for error, You have to 2 gate chrono stalkers to be safe vs it but the 1 gate that everyone tries to defend it with is very very hard.
I don't know if that's the same guy but last week I lost 3 times against a Terran barcode that did proxy 3 rax scvs all-in. It hits before the MScore has enough energy, and despite scouting it early with my probe, dropping a second gate and chronoing stalkers, I didn't hold ( though I must say I'm back from a long absence so I didn't have too good micro ).
Even theorycrafting I must say I can't remember what's the theory on holding that once it's scouted early. Should I drop a third gate ? Skip the MScore ( deadweight ) ? Since he brings all his scvs, when I pull out my probes, the 5-6 marines are safe ( with another 6 marines coming in a minute later, due to momentum of econmy ) behind and I barely have 2 stalkers at that time.. I dunno, maybe it's just all micro, which I currently lack..
On February 02 2015 06:04 Nyast wrote: I don't know if that's the same guy but last week I lost 3 times against a Terran barcode that did proxy 3 rax scvs all-in. It hits before the MScore has enough energy, and despite scouting it early with my probe, dropping a second gate and chronoing stalkers, I didn't hold ( though I must say I'm back from a long absence so I didn't have too good micro ).
Even theorycrafting I must say I can't remember what's the theory on holding that once it's scouted early. Should I drop a third gate ? Skip the MScore ( deadweight ) ? Since he brings all his scvs, when I pull out my probes, the 5-6 marines are safe ( with another 6 marines coming in a minute later, due to momentum of econmy ) behind and I barely have 2 stalkers at that time.. I dunno, maybe it's just all micro, which I currently lack..
If its a proxy 3 rax with perfect micro from your opponent, and you go a nexus without starting any units first, I think you are 100% dead. There simply isn't anything you can do because you won't get a probe surround against perfect micro.
I think you can defend this if you go for a MSC stalker before expand. Essentially what you need to do is get a second pylon to power your gateway ASAP. This is because that pylon is a vulnerable target and if you lose your stalker production you lose the game. You need stalkers and probe pulls to buy time for photon overcharge. When you engage with probes and stalkers, you are just trying to delay his push for even a small second. Try to take minimal losses, although losing 5 probes to delay should put you in an evenish spot (and is perfectly fine). Although you don't have photon overcharge when this hits, it isn't actually that far away from being able to cast.
After photon overcharge activates, you should be able to push the bunkers back. Focus fire repairing scvs and attack with stalkers by trading their shields for extra damage.
If you expand first vs this I don't think there is a way to hold, the natural nexus will die before you can photon overcharge.
On January 31 2015 14:59 vhapter wrote: Just thought I'd bump this topic and let the OP know herO's just held another proxy 2 rax, this time in IEM Taipei. herO vs Maru, G1.
That was an interesting hold. I liked how hero did not overcommit his units and kept his MSC alive. I usually panick in that situation and let it get sniped <.<
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/paEy8pq.jpg)
