So a long time ago, I would open with a 1 gate gas cyber core [no scout] into 20 nexus w/o any units. After the nexus I would cronoboost a MSC to defend a reaper that may be coming.
However, I recently stopped doing this kind of play and switched over to a double gas opening which let me get out a faster MSC and stalker. This made it easy to defend 2 rax bunker marine pushes, 3 rax marine pushes and 3 rax marine scv all ins, because I actually had units by the time the marines push in.
So, I am wondering if there is anything that can be done to defend the various marine rushes while going for a greedy no scout 1 gate Fast expand, (getting the natural nexus @ 3:35).
9 pylon [Positioned to make a reaper wall] Cronoboost Cronoboost 13 gateway [''] 14 gas [No populating as it finishes. Simply rally in probes. This will time perfectly w/cyber core to have 100 gas when it finishes to make MSC] Cronoboost 15 pylon number 2 [Positioned if needed to make reaper wall, otherwise somewhere to power first gateway in case pylon 1 goes down] 17/18 Core depending on worker pairing 20 Natural Nexus 20 MSC <= First unit
From here out the build can deviate. Generally I add on a second gas and a third pylon and then going for a stalker into tech than warp gate.
Essentially, there is no scouting, and the marines are first seen when they are within vision of the nexus. The only unit out will be a mothership core and it will be about 1min from a photon overcharge. Is it even possible to hold? If so, what is necessary to stay alive?
I would like detailed responses on how [If possible without scouting] to hold: 1) A 2 rax marine Bunker push 2) A 3 rax Marine SCv all in.
replay Note, that although I do hold off the rush, I hold it off opening up with double gas, which isn't economically ideal. I want to know if its possible to hold off this push using the build above, as every time i use the above build I die to early marine rushes like these. http://ggtracker.com/matches/5740821
This is an [H] thread, so you actually must post a replay. Not only is it against the guidelines not to post a replay, but it also makes it much harder to help you out.
On January 17 2015 14:49 KingofGods wrote: 2 rax is barely a thing tvp because of nexus cannon. 3 rax? That's unheard of. Just cancel nat nexus and nexus cannon main.
My problem is that the nexus cannon isn't ready in time and I take considerable damage from the marines because the MSC can't fight or else it will die and I have no other units done yet, except a stalker in production.
On January 17 2015 14:45 My_Fake_Plastic_Luv wrote: Whats wrong with scouting?
It delays your nexus by about 10 or so seconds. Not too huge I guess, but it annoys me quite a bit.
Scouting is part of the game and the delay is not large enough to matter for you. Parting uses the 3 second faster nexus for an additional sentry. You? Not so much.
If you go for an adaptive build and refuse to scout because you don't like it, you'll have to live with those losses.
On January 17 2015 14:49 KingofGods wrote: 2 rax is barely a thing tvp because of nexus cannon. 3 rax? That's unheard of. Just cancel nat nexus and nexus cannon main.
He's talking about 11/11 proxy 2 rax with marines and bunkers... not a WOL stim push...
On January 17 2015 15:47 vhapter wrote: This is an [H] thread, so you actually must post a replay. Not only is it against the guidelines not to post a replay, but it also makes it much harder to help you out.
Done.
On January 17 2015 16:17 SC2Toastie wrote: Scouting is part of the game and the delay is not large enough to matter for you. Parting uses the 3 second faster nexus for an additional sentry. You? Not so much.
If you go for an adaptive build and refuse to scout because you don't like it, you'll have to live with those losses.
I may not be a pro player, but I do feel the effects of optimization and mineral stacking in the early game. I notice the lack of or extra minerals and it really does affect my builds.
When it gets to late game, you are absolutely correct.
Anyways, are you saying that it isn't possible to defend an early marine rush with the above opening? If so, I would rather open something safer than scout, like a double gas MSC stalker play.
i'm sorry but if you are losing to early marines as a protoss you are doing something wrong. nexus cannon will stop any terran all in. just build your buildings near your nexus if it's happening to you that much.
On January 17 2015 18:41 TheOne26 wrote: i'm sorry but if you are losing to early marines as a protoss you are doing something wrong. nexus cannon will stop any terran all in. just build your buildings near your nexus if it's happening to you that much.
Not exactly true. I've seen terrans go 2 rax in their main/natural, bunker the natural just to take down the nexus before you can use photon overcharge to save it, and then contain the protoss, taking a huge economic lead from there. I think it was someone playing against Rain on stream, but I'm not entirely not sure. I know the map was Merry Go Round, which makes this build harder to scout. It's basically an economic version of the 2 rax, which gives you a huge lead much more easily. On top of that, it doesn't require floating your buildings all the way back to your main in case you can't finish off your opponent.
@OP Your build seems kind of wonky. Your second geysers is very late, so you can't make a stalker right way. I don't know why you want to early stalker, but I'd probably go 13 gate 13 gas and chrono boost both my stalker and msc (and send my msc to scout), or go double gas at 15.
What I saw in the replay is just a regular 2 rax, which you can actually beat with a msc expand. It's not necessarily easy, but it's been done at pro level a few times. You want to prevent the bunker from going up (I try attacking the scv building it and then shift clicking it a few times to make sure your probe chases it as it switches position while building) if possible. But most importantly, you want to get a good surround on the marines with your probes in order to lower his marine count as much as possible and buy time for your stalker to come out. Once your stalker is out, you want to prevent new marines from entering the bunker if it did go up. If there are too many marines left that you can't prevent incoming marines from getting into the bunker - that is to say, you need to protect your probes from the ones already in the bunker -, the situation gets hairy. Photon overcharge may help, but it only shoots so far and there most likely will be a bunker outside its range.
I think it's good to check inside your main after gateway for proxy 2 rax on 2 players map. I've lost so many games on Overgrowth because I didn't scout my base, so now I do it every game (I usually even check my natural). If you see barracks, just pull 8-10 probes and never let a bunker go down.
Otherwise, it's pretty straightforward to beat any marine based push, even an unscouted 6 proxy rax. Be active with your first units (if no reaper has entered your base at 5:00, check your natural to see if no bunker is building here), chrono stalkers non stop while buying time with msc/zealot if you have scouted the cheese, and don't be reluctant to pull probes (probes help a big deal against non stim/combat shield marines). Once you manage to reach 3 stalkers with the help of overcharge, you can pretty much beat any amount of marines with accurate micro and proceed to destroy your opponent's army and then his buildings. Don't overcommit to the defense of your expansion if it finished ; if you can't hold it, your opponent has most likely not expanded yet and you can deal with that loss because you went eco.
On January 18 2015 01:23 vhapter wrote: @OP Your build seems kind of wonky. Your second geysers is very late, so you can't make a stalker right way. I don't know why you want to early stalker, but I'd probably go 13 gate 13 gas and chrono boost both my stalker and msc (and send my msc to scout), or go double gas at 15.
What I saw in the replay is just a regular 2 rax, which you can actually beat with a msc expand. It's not necessarily easy, but it's been done at pro level a few times. You want to prevent the bunker from going up (I try attacking the scv building it and then shift clicking it a few times to make sure your probe chases it as it switches position while building) if possible. But most importantly, you want to get a good surround on the marines with your probes in order to lower his marine count as much as possible and buy time for your stalker to come out. Once your stalker is out, you want to prevent new marines from entering the bunker if it did go up. If there are too many marines left that you can't prevent incoming marines from getting into the bunker - that is to say, you need to protect your probes from the ones already in the bunker -, the situation gets hairy. Photon overcharge may help, but it only shoots so far and there most likely will be a bunker outside its range.
The build is a 1 gas MSC expand, which is greedy and gets the nexus first. I don't see how the second gas geyser is late, because it is gotten AS SOON as the funds are available after the nexus and MSC.
It is very simple to defend a marine rush with the build you described, because you would have units in time. But I suppose it does answer my question, in that it is not possible to defend an unscouted marine scv bunker rush.
No way to prepare for 2rax without scouting unless you do it blindly. Although with good (good as in parting level) micro you can still beat 2rax/3rax scv allins without scouting.
On January 17 2015 18:41 TheOne26 wrote: i'm sorry but if you are losing to early marines as a protoss you are doing something wrong. nexus cannon will stop any terran all in. just build your buildings near your nexus if it's happening to you that much.
seems like a lot of terrans really just think nexus cannon can magically win you the game. 11/11 hits before you have nexus cannon.......................................
That's not the build you did in the replay, but I'm not going to go over that again. Basically, I was talking about how you may be able to optimize that particular build, but I guess it's fine either way.
You should read my previous post again though. I clearly state that you can hold off the push "with a msc expand", but also described how to do so in detail. I wasn't talking about a stalker + msc opener at all, that was just part of my brief analysis of the replay in the first paragraph.
If you are worried about these builds though, you can do 2 things to play a safer style:
Your first option is to gateway scout, which isn't as detrimental to your economy as you seem to believe... as long as the map doesn't have poorly optimized mineral income (try that on daybreak and overgrowth, then compare delayed your msc is on daybreak). I like this one because it allows you to go 1 stalker 1 sentry 2 gates safely. That's a nice stylistic choice, an interesting way to deal with concussive shell first pokes (standard pokes, not that Hammer garbage), and also particularly good on maps where photon overcharge doesn't cover your natural properly, such as Akilon Wastes. As long as you don't scout the terran going gas first or doing something crazy, going stalker sentry with a relatively quick wg (that is, NOT after your robo, which you can do if you go triple stalker) is generally fine.
Your second option is to send a probe to your natural soon after building your cybercore - either right away or the next probe that comes out. Check your natural to see if there are any ebay blocks and then briefly scout your third or location where you'd expect to see a proxy. This is interesting because it also helps you rule out proxy factories in that particular location. But the thing is, you can't scout more than one location or go too far from your natural if you want to send that probe back to build your nexus. But you can send your scouting probe to the terran's base (you must obviously avoid the reaper's path) and see if you can get it, which allows you to confirm if he's going 2-3 rax or just 1 rax into factory.
@xinzoe How good your micro has to be depends a lot on how good your opponent is at 11-11s. Sometimes you can shut down the push very quickly with probes and some micro, but if it gets past this point, things obviously get much harder.
How does getting 2 gases allow you to get faster msc and stalker? With the 1 gas opening you have enough to start the msc and stalker immediately after the nexus. 2 gases is only good if you scout it really early and go for fast 2 gateways, because it allows you to constantly produce 2 stalkers at a time.
Saturating the gas slowly to have exactly 100 gas when you can start the msc, seems retarded. You are only delaying your stalker/warpgate /first tech unnecessarily.
Regarding the 11/11 (I assume that's what you mean for 2 rax bunker rush) you can't beat it without scouting it. Either you move on to the next game when you see 10 marines and scvs popping up right after you canceled your zealot, or you early scout, that's about it. I suppose in some maps you can also try to scout outside your natural in the most obvious proxy spots.
I don't get what you mean for 3 rax either. Is it 3 rax proxy, or 3 rax inside the main? If it's inside the main, it can be held with a 1 gate expo, because you'll have overcharge up in time. Obviously you need some sort of probe scout, the standard "sneak inside the main at 4:00" should be enough to get additional gateways and chronoboost stalkers out. If it's proxy (skips the OC and pulls only a few scvs) then the defense is the same to the 11/11.
I don't know why you're saying that you can't possibly defend it without scouting it. While you're definitely in for some trouble is the terran is really good at it, even pros fail to do this build properly sometimes. Here's a good example of how your initial reaction can change everything:
On January 19 2015 08:08 vhapter wrote: I don't know why you're saying that you can't possibly defend it without scouting it. While you're definitely in for some trouble is the terran is really good at it, even pros fail to do this build properly sometimes. Here's a good example of how your initial reaction can change everything:
Flash didn't pull all of his SCVs. If he did, there was no way hero could surround the marines. Flash also made a big micro mistake, whereas hero's micro was perfect, and outside the capability of an average TL user. However, you're right, this VOD shows a blind hold of that variation with no scv pull.
On January 19 2015 08:08 vhapter wrote: I don't know why you're saying that you can't possibly defend it without scouting it. While you're definitely in for some trouble is the terran is really good at it, even pros fail to do this build properly sometimes. Here's a good example of how your initial reaction can change everything:
Flash didn't pull all of his SCVs. If he did, there was no way hero could surround the marines. Flash also made a big micro mistake, whereas hero's micro was perfect, and outside the capability of an average TL user. However, you're right, this VOD shows a blind hold of that variation with no scv pull.
Oh yeah, Flash definitely slipped up. How easy or difficult the hold is depends a lot of the terran's positioning, but I think many terrans on the ladder aren't careful enough either.
Also, I don't think there's much to how herO microed his probes. Feel free to disagree though. Perhaps I'm overlooking something, but I find it pretty straightforward to target the scv building the bunker and then surround the marines before they get to safety as long as the terran doesn't have very good positioning. Or at least, that's how I beat most 11-11s. The best thing to do is to prevent it from happening entirely imo, so if you can't lower the marine count right away and stop the bunker from going up, you're probably fucked.
I can't say much about the version in which the terran pulls most of his scvs. I recall having to play a battle of attrition and rely on photon overcharge against this style.
@Vhapter, the second option seems interesting, im going to try it out. Also I reread your first post and I understand now. I think we misunderstood each other because we didn't know what the other person was referencing.
I think you should also give the gateway scout suggestion a try. I've always been greedy when it comes to scouting in most matchups, especially PvT (since WoL). When I say that gateway scouting doesn't affect your build much on maps where your mineral income is properly optimzed, I mean it. As long as your msc pops out early enough to deal with the reaper, you're in great shape imo.
EPT
