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On July 10 2014 13:45 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 12:38 AkashSky wrote:On July 09 2014 23:48 Jazzman88 wrote:
In my opinion, it's suboptimal to take a third after being E-bay blocked. For one, as others have already noted, you are vulnerable to multi-pronged aggression since your Overcharges are spread over too many bases.
Secondly, I am fairly confident that a 5-rax before 3rd CC Bio-Mine follow up kills this pretty badly. Because taking a quick third Nexus delays your tech, it's impossible to have a substantial Colossi count before the traditional timings arrive. Ergo, you have to build more Gateway units than you would like. Add to that the fact that the Terran should realize that something is off and can push early and force Overcharges means that you have the very real danger of confronting an equally upgrade bio force with 4 Medivacs and multiple Mines that will cut you off from your third and leave you unable to defend adequatelly on all fronts. Needless to say, if you went for quick Templar following a third, Bio-Mine kills you even harder. You don't have to take a quick third base if you are e-bay blocked. I started this thread talking about taking an alternative base and then continuing to play 2 base macro protoss. If the terran doesn't immediately cancel e-bay I think protoss has a significant lead because the terran CC is 125 minerals slower. If the terran cancels the E-bay quickly, I think its terran slightly terran favored because it will be easier to do 2 base aggression on spread out bases. Regardless, I still think that taking an alternate base in response to an engineering bay block is a good response, and I will continue to do so in my ladder games, until I find a game where I explicitly lose SOLEY because of the nexus positioning. This is fair enough (and excellent educational play, btw - testing things that work until they don't); I am simply recounting based on theory and my own experience what happens when Protoss does a quick 3 base in response to this with a natural as the 'third'. I would love to see some replays of a practice pair doing this scenario of E-bay block into normal 2-base Protoss versus normal Terran play, preferably at a Master's level so that we can see how the positioning of that alternate base affects the flow of the game.
Currently, I am only diamond, I am shooting for masters however. Next time I take my third because of an Ebay block I will share the replay by updating it to the Original post of this thread.
I do have 1 replay where I lost because of an E-bay block into blind missile turret back home into proxy factory, (yeah... I had stalkers but I let 2 of them blow up to widowmines even though I had an observer, very VERY poor control from me that game) and I ended up losing to the cheese. (He didn't take an expansion off of the cheese, it was very all in).
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On July 11 2014 01:10 AkashSky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2014 13:45 Jazzman88 wrote:On July 10 2014 12:38 AkashSky wrote:On July 09 2014 23:48 Jazzman88 wrote:
In my opinion, it's suboptimal to take a third after being E-bay blocked. For one, as others have already noted, you are vulnerable to multi-pronged aggression since your Overcharges are spread over too many bases.
Secondly, I am fairly confident that a 5-rax before 3rd CC Bio-Mine follow up kills this pretty badly. Because taking a quick third Nexus delays your tech, it's impossible to have a substantial Colossi count before the traditional timings arrive. Ergo, you have to build more Gateway units than you would like. Add to that the fact that the Terran should realize that something is off and can push early and force Overcharges means that you have the very real danger of confronting an equally upgrade bio force with 4 Medivacs and multiple Mines that will cut you off from your third and leave you unable to defend adequatelly on all fronts. Needless to say, if you went for quick Templar following a third, Bio-Mine kills you even harder. You don't have to take a quick third base if you are e-bay blocked. I started this thread talking about taking an alternative base and then continuing to play 2 base macro protoss. If the terran doesn't immediately cancel e-bay I think protoss has a significant lead because the terran CC is 125 minerals slower. If the terran cancels the E-bay quickly, I think its terran slightly terran favored because it will be easier to do 2 base aggression on spread out bases. Regardless, I still think that taking an alternate base in response to an engineering bay block is a good response, and I will continue to do so in my ladder games, until I find a game where I explicitly lose SOLEY because of the nexus positioning. This is fair enough (and excellent educational play, btw - testing things that work until they don't); I am simply recounting based on theory and my own experience what happens when Protoss does a quick 3 base in response to this with a natural as the 'third'. I would love to see some replays of a practice pair doing this scenario of E-bay block into normal 2-base Protoss versus normal Terran play, preferably at a Master's level so that we can see how the positioning of that alternate base affects the flow of the game. Currently, I am only diamond, I am shooting for masters however. Next time I take my third because of an Ebay block I will share the replay by updating it to the Original post of this thread. I do have 1 replay where I lost because of an E-bay block into blind missile turret back home into proxy factory, (yeah... I had stalkers but I let 2 of them blow up to widowmines even though I had an observer, very VERY poor control from me that game) and I ended up losing to the cheese. (He didn't take an expansion off of the cheese, it was very all in).
If that's your level, you're probably about equal with me. If you play on NA, feel free to add me Jazzman.214 and we can test drive that puppy sometime.
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On July 11 2014 02:07 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2014 01:10 AkashSky wrote:On July 10 2014 13:45 Jazzman88 wrote:On July 10 2014 12:38 AkashSky wrote:On July 09 2014 23:48 Jazzman88 wrote:
In my opinion, it's suboptimal to take a third after being E-bay blocked. For one, as others have already noted, you are vulnerable to multi-pronged aggression since your Overcharges are spread over too many bases.
Secondly, I am fairly confident that a 5-rax before 3rd CC Bio-Mine follow up kills this pretty badly. Because taking a quick third Nexus delays your tech, it's impossible to have a substantial Colossi count before the traditional timings arrive. Ergo, you have to build more Gateway units than you would like. Add to that the fact that the Terran should realize that something is off and can push early and force Overcharges means that you have the very real danger of confronting an equally upgrade bio force with 4 Medivacs and multiple Mines that will cut you off from your third and leave you unable to defend adequatelly on all fronts. Needless to say, if you went for quick Templar following a third, Bio-Mine kills you even harder. You don't have to take a quick third base if you are e-bay blocked. I started this thread talking about taking an alternative base and then continuing to play 2 base macro protoss. If the terran doesn't immediately cancel e-bay I think protoss has a significant lead because the terran CC is 125 minerals slower. If the terran cancels the E-bay quickly, I think its terran slightly terran favored because it will be easier to do 2 base aggression on spread out bases. Regardless, I still think that taking an alternate base in response to an engineering bay block is a good response, and I will continue to do so in my ladder games, until I find a game where I explicitly lose SOLEY because of the nexus positioning. This is fair enough (and excellent educational play, btw - testing things that work until they don't); I am simply recounting based on theory and my own experience what happens when Protoss does a quick 3 base in response to this with a natural as the 'third'. I would love to see some replays of a practice pair doing this scenario of E-bay block into normal 2-base Protoss versus normal Terran play, preferably at a Master's level so that we can see how the positioning of that alternate base affects the flow of the game. Currently, I am only diamond, I am shooting for masters however. Next time I take my third because of an Ebay block I will share the replay by updating it to the Original post of this thread. I do have 1 replay where I lost because of an E-bay block into blind missile turret back home into proxy factory, (yeah... I had stalkers but I let 2 of them blow up to widowmines even though I had an observer, very VERY poor control from me that game) and I ended up losing to the cheese. (He didn't take an expansion off of the cheese, it was very all in). If that's your level, you're probably about equal with me. If you play on NA, feel free to add me Jazzman.214 and we can test drive that puppy sometime.
Sure thing!
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EPT
