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As a protoss player, Engineering Bay blocks use to be very frustrating to me, because I had to waste minerals on a useless zealot which then takes damage to a reaper. I get slowed down to the point my expansion is behind the terran player's expansion.
The current response to the E-bay block in the metagame is to simply have a zealot started and let it finish if you spot an E-bay block.
I am here to discuss the viability of a second reponse, namely:
Taking an alternate base much like a zerg player would in response to anything blocking their natural.
Points against this move:
1) Terran players will have an easier time attacking your spread out expansions.
2) This increases the strength of the terran midgame because you need to defend far away locations.
3) Making a zealot and having your natural delayed is not a big deal
Points for this move:
1) Terran is behind in the early game because they wasted 125 minerals on blocking your expansion, which resulted in zero delay to your expansion because you took an alternate base. Also, the terran expansion is now 125 minerals slower and you have a faster nexus.
2) I have yet to see a person engineering bay block and then NOT go for an expansion after the e-bay block. I don't know if this is a 100% accurate statement; but seeing an engineering bay block means that you will not be facing any potent aggression from the Terran player before the 9 minute mark.
** My reasoning for point number 2 is that if a Terran Engineering bay blocks you and then goes on to add more barracks for an attack, their barracks are delayed and so is their attack. Moreover, if they wanted to do an early attack that punishes a fast nexus, they would not engineering bay block and simply go for the faster production. Therefore, any 1 base play off of an engineering bay block is inefficient and is not optimal play.
3) The Mothership core will allow for a Photon Overcharge shortly to defend your proxy nexus in the third base location, while a single sentry can prevent access into your main base.
Currently, my opinion is that if a terran engineering bay blocks you and you choose to take an alternative expansion bypassing the e-bay block, THE TERRAN PLAYER MUST do SOME form of damage to you or else you are ahead by about 100 minerals. Thus, e-bay blocking can put the terran player at a disadvantage if they do not pressure your alternate base.
Poll: When should you e-bay Block?Every time (32) 76% If you are going for a fast expand (0) 0% If you scout a single gas (1) 2% If you scout a single gas And are going for fast expand (5) 12% Never (4) 10% 42 total votes Your vote: When should you e-bay Block? (Vote): Every time
(Vote): If you are going for a fast expand
(Vote): If you scout a single gas
(Vote): If you scout a single gas And are going for fast expand
(Vote): Never
***Majority opinion reached due to discussion***
+ Show Spoiler +
It seems that bypassing E-bay blocks doesn't actually put terran significantly behind because the terran player can cancel the E-bay once they see that only a MSC is attacking it, and they realize you have done something fishy.
As the majority of the posters say, defending 10 minute timings is very difficult with only 1 photon overcharge, and you will for sure be forced to use 1 overcharge if you take an alternate base.
As diamond level play is concerned, this has not been an issue for me. Defending the third has not been hard in the slightest. It should help to know, that if the terran does E-bay block you, and both players play perfectly from that point on, the protoss does have a slight advantage, but apparently it isn't large enough to actually matter.
E-bay blocks are not terrible, and its simply a stylistic choice on how you want to play the matchup. What is for sure, however, is that if you see and E-bay block, I bet you that the terran is expanding, because if they are not expanding off of an ebay block, they are terrible and inefficient.
Replays of Me facing E-bay blockers.
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5616520
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Canada11355 Posts
I can't say I'm very good so take this with a grain of salt.
My scv is scouting anyway, with the reaper in tow. I find your base, have a look around, throw down the ebay block.
Reaper shows up and start being a little weiner and sees no zealot and no probe going for the nat. My next response is, assuming your msc is out and I can't tag any probes, to cancel the ebay and check for a hidden base or a sneaky proxy.
Sure the ebay did reduce my minerals for a while, and I lose ~32 mins but I now know that you're up to something. The SCV, since you didn't send a zealot is still chillaxing in your nat incase you take it late and the reaper is out and about causing trouble. I don't think taking your third as a second puts the terran behind at all.
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On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
Points for this move:
1) Terran is behind in the early game because they wasted 125 minerals on blocking your expansion, which resulted in zero delay to your expansion because you took an alternate base. Also, the terran expansion is now 125 minerals slower and you have a faster nexus.
Terran cancels the ebay, it's only a waste of 32 minerals. Meanwhile while the starting of your 2nd nexus may not be delayed, mining will be delayed since you have a much further distance to go when transferring workers and overall you'll be delayed.
On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
2) I have yet to see a person engineering bay block and then NOT go for an expansion after the e-bay block. I don't know if this is a 100% accurate statement; but seeing an engineering bay block means that you will not be facing any potent aggression from the Terran player before the 9 minute mark.
The terran can still be aggressive before 9 minutes off of 2 bases without widow mines or medivacs, the most common is to just send a bunch of marines to your base to force a photon overcharge at the very least.
On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
3) The Mothership core will allow for a Photon Overcharge shortly to defend your proxy nexus in the third base location, while a single sentry can prevent access into your main base.
It's hard enough to defend your main and regular natural when the first medivacs arrive for the terran, having your natural at your 3rd just makes it that much harder. Also you can't just rely on the photon overcharge to defend, sentries/forcefields are pretty crucial as well and the 3rd on most maps is much more open than the natural.
Overall the ebay block is annoying but shouldn't make a big impact on the game either way for the terran or the protoss. Follow up your zealot with a chrono'ed stalker and your zealot wont die to the reaper, and if you go straight for the terran base with zealot+stalker you can often cause some damage and get good scouting info.
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On July 06 2014 08:05 rsvp wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
Points for this move:
1) Terran is behind in the early game because they wasted 125 minerals on blocking your expansion, which resulted in zero delay to your expansion because you took an alternate base. Also, the terran expansion is now 125 minerals slower and you have a faster nexus.
Terran cancels the ebay, it's only a waste of 32 minerals. Meanwhile while the starting of your 2nd nexus may not be delayed, mining will be delayed since you have a much further distance to go when transferring workers and overall you'll be delayed. Show nested quote +On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
2) I have yet to see a person engineering bay block and then NOT go for an expansion after the e-bay block. I don't know if this is a 100% accurate statement; but seeing an engineering bay block means that you will not be facing any potent aggression from the Terran player before the 9 minute mark.
The terran can still be aggressive before 9 minutes off of 2 bases without widow mines or medivacs, the most common is to just send a bunch of marines to your base to force a photon overcharge at the very least. Show nested quote +On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
3) The Mothership core will allow for a Photon Overcharge shortly to defend your proxy nexus in the third base location, while a single sentry can prevent access into your main base.
It's hard enough to defend your main and regular natural when the first medivacs arrive for the terran, having your natural at your 3rd just makes it that much harder. Also you can't just rely on the photon overcharge to defend, sentries/forcefields are pretty crucial as well and the 3rd on most maps is much more open than the natural. Overall the ebay block is annoying but shouldn't make a big impact on the game either way for the terran or the protoss. Follow up your zealot with a chrono'ed stalker and your zealot wont die to the reaper, and if you go straight for the terran base with zealot+stalker you can often cause some damage and get good scouting info.
Alright, if the Terran cancels the Ebay, yes, its only a waste of 32 minerals, which although not very significant, still puts the terran player 32 minerals behind the protoss.
Secondly, mining will be delayed by about ~5-10 seconds (the time required to travel to the third base from natural) which equates to about 5 to 10 minerals. This is insignificant in my opinion, considering that the terran loses 40 minerals from every minute the SCV on the map and not mining. While not as much as I originally anticipated, from perfect play the terran is still behind, (although not that much) from attempting to E-bay block
While it may force an overcharge, it won't be game ending damage, as in it will 100% be defend able. But you will not face any 1 base timing attacks off of an E-bay block.
This is probably the most valid point of the 3. I don't know how much more difficulty defending a third instead of your natural is compared to just defending 2 bases.
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Canada11355 Posts
On July 06 2014 09:52 AkashSky wrote:
Alright, if the Terran cancels the Ebay, yes, its only a waste of 32 minerals, which although not very significant, still puts the terran player 32 minerals behind the protoss.
It's standard to halt the e-bay at the most hp possible without finishing, no? 32 minerals is only really important in the early early game unless you are talking about flawless play and even then it seems insignificant..
On July 06 2014 09:52 AkashSky wrote:
While it may force an overcharge, it won't be game ending damage, as in it will 100% be defend able. But you will not face any 1 base timing attacks off of an E-bay block.
This is probably the most valid point of the 3. I don't know how much more difficulty defending a third instead of your natural is compared to just defending 2 bases.
Baiting the overcharge opens up 2-base drop play as you wont have the energy for two when the medivac shows up. Taking your third as a second almost forces you to drop extra cannons as you can't really split up an early protoss army to defend that long of a distance. 2-base pressure can be really deadly and if you overcommit to defense the terran is free to drop an early third. On paper losing 40minerals/min from a scouting scv and 32 minerals from a canceled ebay doesn't sound too important to me... Players lose scouts and small amounts of units in most games and it hardly ever decides the match,
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On July 06 2014 09:52 AkashSky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2014 08:05 rsvp wrote:On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
Points for this move:
1) Terran is behind in the early game because they wasted 125 minerals on blocking your expansion, which resulted in zero delay to your expansion because you took an alternate base. Also, the terran expansion is now 125 minerals slower and you have a faster nexus.
Terran cancels the ebay, it's only a waste of 32 minerals. Meanwhile while the starting of your 2nd nexus may not be delayed, mining will be delayed since you have a much further distance to go when transferring workers and overall you'll be delayed. On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
2) I have yet to see a person engineering bay block and then NOT go for an expansion after the e-bay block. I don't know if this is a 100% accurate statement; but seeing an engineering bay block means that you will not be facing any potent aggression from the Terran player before the 9 minute mark.
The terran can still be aggressive before 9 minutes off of 2 bases without widow mines or medivacs, the most common is to just send a bunch of marines to your base to force a photon overcharge at the very least. On July 06 2014 06:45 AkashSky wrote:
3) The Mothership core will allow for a Photon Overcharge shortly to defend your proxy nexus in the third base location, while a single sentry can prevent access into your main base.
It's hard enough to defend your main and regular natural when the first medivacs arrive for the terran, having your natural at your 3rd just makes it that much harder. Also you can't just rely on the photon overcharge to defend, sentries/forcefields are pretty crucial as well and the 3rd on most maps is much more open than the natural. Overall the ebay block is annoying but shouldn't make a big impact on the game either way for the terran or the protoss. Follow up your zealot with a chrono'ed stalker and your zealot wont die to the reaper, and if you go straight for the terran base with zealot+stalker you can often cause some damage and get good scouting info. Alright, if the Terran cancels the Ebay, yes, its only a waste of 32 minerals, which although not very significant, still puts the terran player 32 minerals behind the protoss. Secondly, mining will be delayed by about ~5-10 seconds (the time required to travel to the third base from natural) which equates to about 5 to 10 minerals. This is insignificant in my opinion, considering that the terran loses 40 minerals from every minute the SCV on the map and not mining. While not as much as I originally anticipated, from perfect play the terran is still behind, (although not that much) from attempting to E-bay block While it may force an overcharge, it won't be game ending damage, as in it will 100% be defend able. But you will not face any 1 base timing attacks off of an E-bay block. This is probably the most valid point of the 3. I don't know how much more difficulty defending a third instead of your natural is compared to just defending 2 bases.
32 minerals behind the protoss? How many seconds does it take for a node to gather 32 minerals?
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Terran isnt 32 minerals behind. he delayed ur nexus for at least 10 seconds and forced zealot to finish. Also if u went for 1 gas FE, ur most likely forced to make stalker first instead of warpgate.
At most he also delayed his own bunker and his 2nd/3rd rax
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On July 06 2014 10:22 Xinzoe wrote:
Terran isnt 32 minerals behind. he delayed ur nexus for at least 10 seconds and forced zealot to finish. Also if u went for 1 gas FE, ur most likely forced to make stalker first instead of warpgate.
At most he also delayed his own bunker and his 2nd/3rd rax
Thats the thing, If you take the third as your second, he didn't delay the nexus at all. Also making MSC, then stalker, then warpgate is pretty standard. I always get MSC and stalker before warpgate in my PvTs.
On July 06 2014 10:10 Fecalfeast wrote:
Baiting the overcharge opens up 2-base drop play as you wont have the energy for two when the medivac shows up. Taking your third as a second almost forces you to drop extra cannons as you can't really split up an early protoss army to defend that long of a distance. 2-base pressure can be really deadly and if you overcommit to defense the terran is free to drop an early third. On paper losing 40minerals/min from a scouting scv and 32 minerals from a canceled ebay doesn't sound too important to me... Players lose scouts and small amounts of units in most games and it hardly ever decides the match,
Yeah, the mid game can be troublesome with a far away location to defend, but I still think that if terran baits 1 over charge, early on in the game, you will still have 1 overcharge available for the 10minute push. A MSC finished at 4:05 will reach 200 energy at the 8 minute mark. So you can PO the main while having most of your units at the third. But maybe you need 2 PO to defend, I don't know.
But the thing is, if in practice I find that taking my third doesn't make it that much more difficult to defend the 10minute timing, I say that it is well worth bypassing the E-bay block..
On July 06 2014 10:10 Unsane wrote:
32 minerals behind the protoss? How many seconds does it take for a node to gather 32 minerals?
1 worker will take 1 minute to get 40 minerals, so it should take about 50-55 seconds for 1 worker to get 32 minerals. Divide by number of workers you have.
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I would say that is a bad idea.
First, making a zealot is not that big of a deal aswell as delaying a little bit your expension.
On July 06 2014 10:32 AkashSky wrote:
Yeah, the mid game can be troublesome with a far away location to defend, but I still think that if terran baits 1 over charge, early on in the game, you will still have 1 overcharge available for the 10minute push. A MSC finished at 4:05 will reach 200 energy at the 8 minute mark. So you can PO the main while having most of your units at the third. But maybe you need 2 PO to defend, I don't know.
But the thing is, if in practice I find that taking my third doesn't make it that much more difficult to defend the 10minute timing, I say that it is well worth bypassing the E-bay block..
Second, one photon overcharge will not deal with the 10 min timing push with stim and medivacs if you don't have any unit to defend, because the terran will be able to snipe the nexus really fast. so that means your army need to be at the 2nd base which let your main easy to reach.
Third, all reason listed before.
So maybe at your level, you can "dodge" the ebay block with this, but definitly not pass a certain point. Moveover, delaying your expension for a few second is not that much big of a deal.
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Just wanted to throw my input in. Cancelling the engineering bay only nets a loss of 35 minerals. However, you are still investing 150 minerals early on in the game until you cancel the building.
I'm not sure if that slows SCV production down at all. Probably depends on the build. But that investment could be spent for other things so that effect needs to be consider as well not just the net 35 mineral loss.
Not sure if keeping a probe at the natural to ward away the SCV is worth it or even possible to avoid a EBAY building to block the nexus. The EBAY is smaller and doesn't need to be perfectly placed to effectively block the natural.
Otherwise I agree with the rest of the crowd it seems that waiting for the zealot is probably the best strategy so far.
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ebay block followed up with a reaper is one of the most annoying things in the game to deal with as a protoss player
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Italy12246 Posts
Assuming that you are doing a build that's not so tight you can't even afford to scout (like gas first fast fact or something), i feel like you should always try to get that ebay down. Ebay+reaper is pretty strong.
I don't like taking another base though; it essentially forces you into some kind of fast 3 base build, which is very map dependant and not always ideal (5rax before 3rd could really punish you for example).
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I hate this thread. You guys are letting too many terrans know they should always be ebay blocking.
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Canada13389 Posts
Ebay blocks are interesting. I remember back in WoL and even in early HotS some players like Rain would respond by letting their zealot finish, taking the second gas and then getting a twilight council after their delayed nexus went down. This was either followed up by blink pressure, or more commonly, by some sort of DT drop style play.
Alternatively, you can simply play a very old school standard opening where you get stalker, 2nd gas, then a robo before you nexus (if the block is there that long).
I think the key is seeing early that he is blocking your nat with an ebay and doing as much damage as possible to his scv with your probe, allowing your zealot to at least kill the scv building the ebay more easily. Then you can micro your zealot so that you can kill the ebay or hurt it severely while waiting for a stalker to shoo the reaper away. I think you need to delay your mothership core slightly in these situations because it doesnt do as much damage as the stalker nor is it mobile enough to zone the reaper well from the nat and your mineral line.
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In my opinion, it's suboptimal to take a third after being E-bay blocked. For one, as others have already noted, you are vulnerable to multi-pronged aggression since your Overcharges are spread over too many bases.
Secondly, I am fairly confident that a 5-rax before 3rd CC Bio-Mine follow up kills this pretty badly. Because taking a quick third Nexus delays your tech, it's impossible to have a substantial Colossi count before the traditional timings arrive. Ergo, you have to build more Gateway units than you would like. Add to that the fact that the Terran should realize that something is off and can push early and force Overcharges means that you have the very real danger of confronting an equally upgrade bio force with 4 Medivacs and multiple Mines that will cut you off from your third and leave you unable to defend adequatelly on all fronts. Needless to say, if you went for quick Templar following a third, Bio-Mine kills you even harder.
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On July 09 2014 23:48 Jazzman88 wrote:
In my opinion, it's suboptimal to take a third after being E-bay blocked. For one, as others have already noted, you are vulnerable to multi-pronged aggression since your Overcharges are spread over too many bases.
Secondly, I am fairly confident that a 5-rax before 3rd CC Bio-Mine follow up kills this pretty badly. Because taking a quick third Nexus delays your tech, it's impossible to have a substantial Colossi count before the traditional timings arrive. Ergo, you have to build more Gateway units than you would like. Add to that the fact that the Terran should realize that something is off and can push early and force Overcharges means that you have the very real danger of confronting an equally upgrade bio force with 4 Medivacs and multiple Mines that will cut you off from your third and leave you unable to defend adequatelly on all fronts. Needless to say, if you went for quick Templar following a third, Bio-Mine kills you even harder.
You don't have to take a quick third base if you are e-bay blocked. I started this thread talking about taking an alternative base and then continuing to play 2 base macro protoss. If the terran doesn't immediately cancel e-bay I think protoss has a significant lead because the terran CC is 125 minerals slower. If the terran cancels the E-bay quickly, I think its terran slightly terran favored because it will be easier to do 2 base aggression on spread out bases. Regardless, I still think that taking an alternate base in response to an engineering bay block is a good response, and I will continue to do so in my ladder games, until I find a game where I explicitly lose SOLEY because of the nexus positioning.
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On July 08 2014 06:11 Niska wrote:
Just wanted to throw my input in. Cancelling the engineering bay only nets a loss of 35 minerals. However, you are still investing 150 minerals early on in the game until you cancel the building.
I'm not sure if that slows SCV production down at all. Probably depends on the build. But that investment could be spent for other things so that effect needs to be consider as well not just the net 35 mineral loss.
Are people also forgetting the lost mining time for the SCV? Because I think they are. You don't have to scout with the SCV (especially if you open with a Reaper), but even if you do, it could be on it's way home to mine while your building a Engineering Bay.
In other words, when you consider what Niska said about the initial investment, and what I said about lost mining time, the total loss and commitment is much greater than 35 minerals, especially if you lose the SCV.
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On July 10 2014 12:38 AkashSky wrote:Show nested quote +On July 09 2014 23:48 Jazzman88 wrote:
In my opinion, it's suboptimal to take a third after being E-bay blocked. For one, as others have already noted, you are vulnerable to multi-pronged aggression since your Overcharges are spread over too many bases.
Secondly, I am fairly confident that a 5-rax before 3rd CC Bio-Mine follow up kills this pretty badly. Because taking a quick third Nexus delays your tech, it's impossible to have a substantial Colossi count before the traditional timings arrive. Ergo, you have to build more Gateway units than you would like. Add to that the fact that the Terran should realize that something is off and can push early and force Overcharges means that you have the very real danger of confronting an equally upgrade bio force with 4 Medivacs and multiple Mines that will cut you off from your third and leave you unable to defend adequatelly on all fronts. Needless to say, if you went for quick Templar following a third, Bio-Mine kills you even harder. You don't have to take a quick third base if you are e-bay blocked. I started this thread talking about taking an alternative base and then continuing to play 2 base macro protoss. If the terran doesn't immediately cancel e-bay I think protoss has a significant lead because the terran CC is 125 minerals slower. If the terran cancels the E-bay quickly, I think its terran slightly terran favored because it will be easier to do 2 base aggression on spread out bases. Regardless, I still think that taking an alternate base in response to an engineering bay block is a good response, and I will continue to do so in my ladder games, until I find a game where I explicitly lose SOLEY because of the nexus positioning.
This is fair enough (and excellent educational play, btw - testing things that work until they don't); I am simply recounting based on theory and my own experience what happens when Protoss does a quick 3 base in response to this with a natural as the 'third'.
I would love to see some replays of a practice pair doing this scenario of E-bay block into normal 2-base Protoss versus normal Terran play, preferably at a Master's level so that we can see how the positioning of that alternate base affects the flow of the game.
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Italy12246 Posts
Taking a far away 3rd and playing a 2base style is still sup optimal because it's extremly hard, say, to defend a medivac timing while being so spread out. Personally i just let my zealot finish on 2 player maps, or if i see an scv in my base 
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EPT
