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TheZov,
I just came back to sc2 from about a year hiatus, an this thread is certainly an amazing tool to get back on track. A question:
I understand what you mean about about being like water (you may know the analogy is a famous one in martial arts and boxing). I do not, however, understand what you mean about the "shrubken zerg syndrome". If my opponent is coming to attack, and I go around leaving my base vulnerable, won't he take advantage by attacking my undefended base?
If you could, i'd like some examples of when you think a run-arond is a good choice, and examples where "gathering strength" is a better move".
Much appreciated!
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On May 07 2014 01:15 Ninjury_J wrote:
TheZov,
I just came back to sc2 from about a year hiatus, an this thread is certainly an amazing tool to get back on track. A question:
I understand what you mean about about being like water (you may know the analogy is a famous one in martial arts and boxing). I do not, however, understand what you mean about the "shrubken zerg syndrome". If my opponent is coming to attack, and I go around leaving my base vulnerable, won't he take advantage by attacking my undefended base?
If you could, i'd like some examples of when you think a run-arond is a good choice, and examples where "gathering strength" is a better move".
Much appreciated!
hopefully the OP doesn't mind me answering, but one of the keys to knowing when to counterattack as a zerg player is having good map vision and keeping tabs on your opponent's army. a great example is if you have a lot of roach/ling out on the map against a protoss player who's on a gateway/robo composition and he starts to move out across the map. if you know exactly where his army is, you can wait until he is dead in the middle of the map and go hit his natural. if you execute this correctly, because your forces are significantly faster than his, your opponent is put in the awkward position of either taking massive damage and going all-in to kill you (which is very hard because you can spread hatcheries and extractors and also bring your army back to sandwich his) or recalling and giving you a huge amount of time to continue teching and expanding while simultaneously putting him on the back foot. this philosophy also works fairly well in roach vs roach zvz and against terran mech. against bio it's tougher to do because of their mobility, but it's still possible to do by running behind his bio ball with small groups of lings or ling/bane. this is why you see the best terran players putting up a lot of supply depot/bunker sim city at vulnerable expands
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What he means by "shrunken zerg" is that the zerg simply stays on their side of the map and moves back whenever the opponent pushes him. For the most part this is ok, but this never utilizes the real mobility of the zerg army. What he means by "running around" is that it's better go to around behind the opponent's army and attacking back towards your side. This allows you #1 to cut off reinforcement and #2 attacking the opponent towards your creep where you have an advantage. That is, if your intent is trying to kill the opponent's army. There is also #3 to threaten a ling run by or base trade.
What Zov is trying to say is that the zerg should be trying to surround the opponent's army and stay mobile, not to attack it from one side. If the opponent is trying to fight you in a choke, the worst idea you can have is to engage him in that choke as a zerg. You mentioned that if that will leave your base vulnerable? Yes, if you take your entire army it could. But if you split it into two then you can surround the enemy in the choke from the front and the back. If it's a terran you're surrounding, they can't away run away or split. If it's a protoss you're surrounding, they'll need twice as many forcefields.
I don't think "gathering strength" is a good way to put it. As a zerg, you only want to make as many units to equal the opponent's army so that you don't die, then continue droning. Then once you're significantly economically ahead, you can crush the opponent's army through pure mass.
But then again, I'm just another masters zerg so I don't really know anything.
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Russian Federation34 Posts
Thanks to Waise and Bulgogi (Mmm, now I'm hungry...) for elaborating!
Quick note on "gathering strength" — referring to when the pressure begins and it's game ON, so to speak, IE time to make as many units as possible so we don't die to the attack. I agree with the "just enough" approach with the exception of an aggressive mid-late game scenario where all economies have been established and now a continuous series of engagements unravels to decide the winner. This is probably not as applicable until high-D/low-M but nevertheless worth mentioning. At some point, a time will come when you just have to fight to the death.
Much of our Zerg attack psychology is counter-intuitive in that you have to do things that make you feel somewhat exposed. I say shrunken zerg because it's easy to give into the fear of pressure and collapse back into oneself, losing map control, army ground, and initiative (think 'tempo' as in chess, where it is the attacker who dictates the pace of development, and the defender who is forced to respond). I've coached several Silver-Platinum players who exhibit this common tendency when an imminent attack threat is present.
They all tend to:
-Fall back to base,
-Give up control of the towers, uncontested (where applicable),
-Protect their overlords by rallying them into the main/natural, and, worst of all,
-Play in the dark for some period of time until either the fight is over or, worse, doesn't happen because they got faked out of a dozen drones by aggressive posturing.
This is sort of like the Zerg anti-psychology, and a good opponent will abuse you by forcing you to play in the dark or split up into multiple locations. The flip-side is what Bulgogi described as going behind to get 360 degree surrounds and/or threaten run-by counters. It's also nipping at your opponent's army's heels, making them feel unsafe to push out.
Great examples of these concepts can be found in the recent Violet(Z) VS Huk(P) series at Lone Star Clash 3 lat weekend. Zerg players will generally agree that roaches suck heavy-duty when going up against a balanced mid-game Protoss composition (Sentry Stalker Immortal Colo). Link: http://www.twitch.tv/lonestarclash/b/525449584 Match starts around 4hr15min into the stream.
Violet displays tremendous game sense and tempo control by abusing the mobility of his multi-prong roach packs (WAY too small and light-hitting to cause any serious damage to a Protoss ball) to keep Huk a) split up and b) defensive. Game 2 is a powerful example of this, though he unfortunately got outplayed by Huk's creative (and unusual) counters, which are all based on the same concept we're talking about. Nevertheless, that mechanic is exceptionally well illustrated in that series, which Violet went on to win. Note how active he is with his lower-tier units, never taking a direct fight if he can help it.
(He also CONSTANTLY clawed his way up the tech tree to reach that state of variability that allowed him to make tech switches on a whim.)
PS - immediately following, Jaedong vs State (zvp) is another great series. Starts @ 5hr45min into the stream.
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I think I understand. I especially like the idea of attacking towards the creep and manufacturing a surround. I've definitively given up vision for "security" and lost because of it before, so this will be a good place to try and improve once I am less rusty.
Thanks for the answers everyone.
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Great article and I learned/refreshed myself on a number of things. I have two suggestions:
1) This paragraph is completely unclear to me:
"Know exactly what supply = 40 drones. This is the zerg baseline of survival. As already mentioned, failing to achieve 40 drones as early as humanly possible spells disastrous economic consequences in the mid-game. Example: 3 queens + 4 lings = 10 supply. Therefore, 40 drones = 50 supply (52 to be safe). Always strive to achieve this supply by 7 minutes. In-game test: If you made 4 queens and 12 lings, but half the lings died in a fight, and your overall supply reads 44, what supply do you need to achieve for baseline survival saturation?"
By the way, 4 lings = 2 supply, so your queen + ling supply math is a little off. What does 40 drones = 50 supply mean?
2) When you go through a general build order, I think you should take all 4 gasses by about 45 supply vs protoss, not just one additional gas as you mention. Sure, if they are pressuring with zealots you may only have 2 gasses up by then, but you really need as much gas as possible for protoss 2 base timing attacks (and you should probably have a 4th macro hatch as well to pump as many roaches out as possible).
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Russian Federation34 Posts
There are a number of assertions here, let me see if I can address them tactfully.
First off, 4 lings = 4 sets of lings in this case (since they spawn by two, but are not made by two, if that makes sense.)
So 3x2+4 does in fact = 10 supply. In the example above, striving for 2-base saturation of 40 drones, the solution looks like this:
4x2+12-6=14 (army supply) 44-14 = 30 (drone supply). That means that for 40 drones, you will need to reach 54 supply, respectively. So to answer your question, "40 drones = 50 supply" simply means that assuming 3 queens and 4 sets of lings (for a total of 10 supply), the correct supply count to signify 40 drones is 50.
With regard to your gas timing, I would have to disagree. Please understand that I'm here to help, not to argue. 45 supply assuming even 2 queens and 2(sets) lings = 39 drones. More realistically you're looking at 3 queens and 3 sets of lings = 36 drones. The math is 3x2+3 = 9, and 45-9=36. Let's say 1 gas is already taken which leaves 33 on minerals. By taking 3 more gasses, you are dumping a colossal investment of drones (12, counting extractors), which, even if you replace the ones used to build the extractors themselves, will leave you with 24 drones on minerals. That kind of under saturation will almost guarantee that you will get obliterated by any decent 2-base timing attack from Protoss (per your example), or, alternatively, will fall behind economically in the mid game. Not to mention that you will not be able to sustain a macro hatch and certainly nowhere near 3-base + macro hatch roach production off 24 drones, and your gas would stockpile.
Refer to Trajectory section, 2nd to last bullet point which discusses how much gas is needed for what. Assuming 2-base play from Protoss, your build should *roughly* follow: 15p 16h (or 14p 15h, slightly more conservative), 3rd hatch @ 24 supply, double gas at 6:00, followed by roach warren and evo at approximately 50-55 supply, followed by Lair at approximately 60-65 supply. Additional gas can be added once Lair and ling speed are started, which I would personally do according to the method described, IE, one gas at a time, training new drones onto each gas until full before taking the next gas and so on. Granted, much of this will depend in game but this trajectory coined by Stephano in ZvP guarantees that you will have a baseline economy of 36-44 drones on minerals which also happens to be the absolute minimum required to produce roaches off 3-base.
I have no way of knowing what level you are playing at but I suspect that you are possibly handicapping yourself quite severely by taking too much gas too soon and under-producing drones in the first 7 minutes of the game. This can be determined rather easily by checking how many drones you have at 7 minutes in 10 random replays (excluding zvz). If you are under 40 in at least half of them, then your early game macro needs work.
Cheers
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Standard macro zerg flowchart:
1. Scout what they are doing.
2. Produce the maximum number of drones and tech possible while staying alive.
3. Repeat steps 1 and 2 until you satisfy the following condition:
Win condition: Your economy and tech is sufficient relative to your opponents that a committal to army will win the game.
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Russian Federation34 Posts
Thanks Kaiser.
We can also go shorter: "Win"
8)
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What a great guide. I haven't been able to play SC2 much anymore due to an injury, but reading this really motivated me and piqued my interest to start playing again.
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Thanks for your guide, it's awesome.
I'd like to think of a way to refer to it ingame. I could alt-tab but the article is long, it's not really practical.
If you guys have some ideas please share.
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@renkin
Honestly you probably have enough to think about in-game already, so yes, having the entire article or even select paragraphs ready to be read during a game wouldn't be practical.
I read this article a few days ago so I may have misremembered, but I believe it mentioned the commonly accepted wisdom that you should choose one thing to work on at a time. Then, once that one thing becomes a little closer to second-nature, or a habit, you can move on to something else to work on.
For that reason, I'd recommend keeping the article handy, but choose just one thing from it. Then put that one thing in your own words and focus on just that for several games. Even at the expense of your short-term win-rate.
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Russian Federation34 Posts
I'm with Jtype on this—one thing at a time. Even if you just practice...
inject inject, overlord overlord
inject inject inject, overlord overlord overlord
...you will quickly eliminate all supply blocks and your macro will improve noticeably in a very short time.
That's where I started, then added new actions to the production cycle. Works wonders once it is internalized to the point of muscle memory! 
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Made it to masters as Zerg with just these words:
Spit
Spend
Creep
Attack
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United States4883 Posts
On May 08 2014 03:55 loft wrote:
Made it to masters as Zerg with just these words:
Spit
Spend
Creep
Attack
Pretty much. I like to call playing Zerg the "Inject/creep spread game".
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On May 08 2014 03:55 loft wrote:
Made it to masters as Zerg with just these words:
Spit
Spend
Creep
Attack
I think this is pretty spot on actually.
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Love the point about dedicated hotkeys for scout and for creep queen(s). I've used a hotkey that was shared for both, and its probably part of my lack of midgame scouting.
Also I have a question about rallying. Say you're on 3 bases, and your nat is getting pushed slowly (ie a terran is sieging up between your third and your nat, preparing to push). How do you rally your reinforcements so that they don't suicide into the attacking units?
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Russian Federation34 Posts
On May 08 2014 04:30 Lobotomist wrote:
Love the point about dedicated hotkeys for scout and for creep queen(s). I've used a hotkey that was shared for both, and its probably part of my lack of midgame scouting.
Also I have a question about rallying. Say you're on 3 bases, and your nat is getting pushed slowly (ie a terran is sieging up between your third and your nat, preparing to push). How do you rally your reinforcements so that they don't suicide into the attacking units?
See last point under Zerg Macro Mechanic:
Learn how to macro-bind your units to their respective control groups. This is done by CNTRL+clicking the eggs (de-selects the larva, leaving only the eggs selected), and hitting Shift+# where # is the hotkey of the appropriate control group. [blockquote]Example: When spawning zerglings to be grouped to Cntrl group 2, you select larva, hold down Z, the cntrl+click the eggs to de-select larvae, then hit Shift+2. This pre-assigns un-spawned units to join the specified control group before they even hatch, greatly speeding up production, regrouping, and eliminating almost all need for rallies.[/blockquote]
Alternatively, if Terran has already split your bases, you will have to re-set rallies on your hatcheries to keep reinforcements from running past the Terran army.
IE - main to ramp, natural to mineral line, third to third, etc. This is pretty APM intensive. You'll have to select all the units and engage along with your main army. For this reason, I prefer macro-binding so any unit made is automatically included in a control group before it hatches.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 08 2014 04:30 Lobotomist wrote:
Love the point about dedicated hotkeys for scout and for creep queen(s). I've used a hotkey that was shared for both, and its probably part of my lack of midgame scouting.
Also I have a question about rallying. Say you're on 3 bases, and your nat is getting pushed slowly (ie a terran is sieging up between your third and your nat, preparing to push). How do you rally your reinforcements so that they don't suicide into the attacking units?
There's probably no good way around this other than either re-rallying your hatcheries and stop relying on egg rallying OR selecting the hatcheries from the split-off bases and egg-rallying to a separate hotkey.
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On May 08 2014 05:09 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2014 04:30 Lobotomist wrote:
Love the point about dedicated hotkeys for scout and for creep queen(s). I've used a hotkey that was shared for both, and its probably part of my lack of midgame scouting.
Also I have a question about rallying. Say you're on 3 bases, and your nat is getting pushed slowly (ie a terran is sieging up between your third and your nat, preparing to push). How do you rally your reinforcements so that they don't suicide into the attacking units? There's probably no good way around this other than either re-rallying your hatcheries and stop relying on egg rallying OR selecting the hatcheries from the split-off bases and egg-rallying to a separate hotkey. Ah. That's the answer I was looking for. In the past I've momentarily stopped binding eggs to groups and reset rally points, but it's not great. I suppose I could use camera hotkeys to produce from each hatch and bind reinforcements from the separated hatch to a "flank" control group.
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EPT
