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On December 09 2014 02:59 BeefMaster wrote:
Question Time!
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
i would stop doing this build once you scout nexus first with canon, unless you think they are worse at macro than you and your push can still be successful. you can transition from this opening into 3 base bio and try to keep em on 2 bases as long as possible. since you have the fac you might as well still try to poke with minedrop, if you get in just once its great!
your 2nd rallied WM can go to mineral line as you push out. this works ok but there is a problem, u kill first oracle, but if it is smart it damages all your SCV with the splash. then what if another one comes in and there is no turret? oracles are very good at finding angles so i'd use both turret and mine. also with the turret you can drop 2nd-3rd mine faster.
i would push out and rally 2nd wm to mineral line while getting turret. they will take tons of damage, likely more than you even if your defense is subpar
for 3 i'd listen to hammer, im not actually sure as i haven't faced it much and honestly it does sound a bit tricky to hold...if the P micro is very good. i will say that usually your 2nd wm should be on the way right? or at least started? maybe you make a bunker to buy time if you scout a 10gate/10gas (fast poke)? i dont think 13gate poke will do anything...maybe even pull a few scv to buffer stalker fire from marauders to keep em alive longer vs msc if hes committing to poke. i would not make marines, i'd wait for 2nd WM then his msc is dead. ALSO the counter poke will do hella damage, so you should generally like vsing this build 
this build is REALLY good vs blink allins just position your tanks well and have repair scv hotkeyed. make him take severe punishment for blinking in
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On December 09 2014 03:18 nath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2014 02:59 BeefMaster wrote:
Question Time!
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
i would stop doing this build once you scout nexus first with canon, unless you think they are worse at macro than you and your push can still be successful. you can transition from this opening into 3 base bio and try to keep em on 2 bases as long as possible. since you have the fac you might as well still try to poke with minedrop, if you get in just once its great! your 2nd rallied WM can go to mineral line as you push out. this works ok but there is a problem, u kill first oracle, but if it is smart it damages all your SCV with the splash. then what if another one comes in and there is no turret? oracles are very good at finding angles so i'd use both turret and mine. also with the turret you can drop 2nd-3rd mine faster. i would push out and rally 2nd wm to mineral line while getting turret. they will take tons of damage, likely more than you even if your defense is subpar for 3 i'd listen to hammer, im not actually sure as i haven't faced it much and honestly it does sound a bit tricky to hold...if the P micro is very good. i will say that usually your 2nd wm should be on the way right? or at least started? maybe you make a bunker to buy time if you scout a 10gate/10gas (fast poke)? i dont think 13gate poke will do anything...maybe even pull a few scv to buffer stalker fire from marauders to keep em alive longer vs msc if hes committing to poke. i would not make marines, i'd wait for 2nd WM then his msc is dead. ALSO the counter poke will do hella damage, so you should generally like vsing this build this build is REALLY good vs blink allins just position your tanks well and have repair scv hotkeyed. make him take severe punishment for blinking in
Thanks for the advice on the early poke. I'll be sure to watch for the 10gate/10gas timing as I usually SCV scout to look for proxy BS.
I think I need to watch some reps for the blink all-in. I suspect I am making widow mines and delaying tanks for too long.
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On December 09 2014 02:59 BeefMaster wrote:
Question Time!
1) I recently ran into a toss who went Nexus first with cannons at the front. This shut down my initial poke. Then he parked stalkers in his main to deny drops, so I couldn't get anything done with widow mines. By the time I made my big push @ 14 mins, we were on equal supply. I was able to do some damage but not end the game, and he was able to remax faster and come back for the win. Any idea how to adapt the build to play against this style? Should I just double-expand?
2a) What are your thoughts when scouting stargate on planting a widow mine in your mineral line vs ebay+turrets? Seems cheaper and also effective at killing the stargate, although weakens your early push slightly.
2b) In general, how do you react to proxy stargate? Do you go kill the stargate first or just go for the 3-marauder+1-2 mine push?
3) How do you react to the zealot+stalker+msc poke? Or really any fast MSC poke? I usually have only 2 marauders and 1 mine when this hits. The MSC can get a ton of damage done and there doesn't seem to be much I can do to react. If I start making marines, MSC picks them off one at a time. I usually try to make ebay+turrets or chase with mines, but this usually results in econ damage or macro slips for me.
4) Any advice for dealing with 2-base blink stalker all-ins that seem really prevalent in the current map pool?
Hey Beefmaster!
1. I am now doing the initial push more aggressively with 2 marauders 1 wm (others following) and having great success. This would likely hit before opponent has cannons down. If not though, just pull back, get a faster in-base 3rd and macro like a beast. Try drops anyways, but the important thing is to stop building wm/maraud for a few mins to get faster cc's. If you have not been double expanding against 2 base protoss you have been doing the build wrong! Make sure to have 3rd CC in base though.
2a. If you scout stargate, you can absolutely put a wm in min line asap. If you get surprised you can also pull workers, and with the timing there is usually a wm just out or just about to be. Plant it down and "hide" it with the workers. (http://ggtracker.com/matches/5650909).
2b. I continue with initial push and try to get a wm in his min line.
3. Micro. An alternative opening is also 2 marines (12rax/12gas) into maraud/wm; this can help against zsm. You can also have workers auto-rep if msc is in your min line (4-6), while going and doing significant damage to toss.
4. I usually do significant damage to early on against 2base blink, as the units they are producing are weak against the build's opening. When "sensing" based on only seeing stalkers etc, i will put down another rax, and pump marauders, and tanks from the fact, getting subsequent factories when gas avails.
Hope this helps. Feel free to let me know if you have any more questions and/or add me Hammer#1900
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I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs.
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I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs
It really comes down to micro. Make sure your first widow mine gets a hit on the MSC like AIM it if you have to if the MSC goes to attack your marauders. If he backs up use the Wms to zone the MSC out especially if he has a natural lol. I've had a couple games where I did this and it made the Protoss look really silly hahaha
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On December 09 2014 18:02 klup wrote:
I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs.
Klup, you can also do an opening with 12 rax 13 gas and get 2 marines, then pump marauder/wm. This is safer against msc pressure! I do it it sometimes with good success :D
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On December 09 2014 22:48 Pirfiktshon wrote:Show nested quote +I will need to practice this build again and try the early 2 maraudeurs/1WM timing. But I'm worried about not being able to kill MSC that gets freeshots on my maraudeurs It really comes down to micro. Make sure your first widow mine gets a hit on the MSC like AIM it if you have to if the MSC goes to attack your marauders. If he backs up use the Wms to zone the MSC out especially if he has a natural lol. I've had a couple games where I did this and it made the Protoss look really silly hahaha
I think if the protoss has to tank the widow mine hit, letting the msc absorb the first hit actually benefits the protoss. You get free reign over the marauders until a new widow mine shows up, whereas stalkers and probes straight up die to it. I still don't see what the deal with this build is. I can't say much about other tech choices because I was going robo every time I faced this build, but if you do a robo opening, all you have to do is buy time. As soon as you have an immortal and an observer out, this build is pretty easy to deal with.
It's kind of ironic that this build is supposed to "crush" protosses, when in fact an old school reactor techlab opener (marine marauder), which isn't considered "viable" anymore, is much more dangerous in my experience. I find it hard to believe a good protoss can take considerable damage against this build unless he messes up big time. If anything, the only thing terrans crush when they do this build against me is themselves. lol
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+1 to Hammer. This build is amazing. I was on a losing streak in TvP for months now. Somewhere like 22% TvP last season. The opening is so safe against protoss all in!
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On December 13 2014 22:18 bhfberserk wrote:
+1 to Hammer. This build is amazing. I was on a losing streak in TvP for months now. Somewhere like 22% TvP last season. The opening is so safe against protoss all in!
Excellent! Thanks for the feedback. Let me know if you have questions or need help - hammer#1909
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I will note that the Reactor-on-Barracks-switch-to-Factory-for-2-Mines variant is safer against Z/S/MSC on some maps, and is better for actually killing the MSC if that's what you're going for. I'm sure the 2-Marine variant is good as well if you don't want to go for a Reactor'd Factory early on.
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December 31, 2014 Important opening update. Please read OP as I have made adjustments to the opening and it is now much stronger against all early Protoss cheese.
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I feel like this is a loss bo vs a MSC poke lol i feel like you have a stronger chance to do some damage with the other build lol
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On January 01 2015 10:23 Pirfiktshon wrote:
I feel like this is a loss bo vs a MSC poke lol i feel like you have a stronger chance to do some damage with the other build lol
The updated opening blows the MSC poke out of the water! Check the changes :D
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Bot edit.
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Bot edit.
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LOL its funny at first i thought this would weaken the push with the updated BO I use this build religiously but go into bio with good micro and a good read on the protoss I usually force him into something he doesn't want or I do massive damage LOL The 2 Marines make it so when the first mine pops you can set a trap and pick off the MSC which ends the game in less than 8 mins if they expanded lol
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Hello,
Hammer, Congratulation for your build. I test it and it's really powerfull!!!!! With it i crush platine and diamond player faster (i'm top platine). I'm passionated to the TvP and i write a document on it Name " how to attack protoss" in french.
link: http://eu.battle.net/sc2/fr/forum/topic/12206611460
I want to master your BO. I need to have constructive talk with you.
See you.
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I see all the replay and i have just one question.
Why pro-gamer not used your opening?
It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
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On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
I see all the replay and i have just one question.
Why pro-gamer not used your opening?
It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt.
I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
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On January 28 2015 05:48 -Hammer- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2015 05:01 Diamadoshikiller wrote:
I see all the replay and i have just one question.
Why pro-gamer not used your opening?
It seems really goooooddd.
In part of your replay, in reality it's your capacity to play mecha well , give you the win. But the opening requires the protoss to do robotic quickly! With that we can play without doubt. I'm not sure. I think some players feel it puts them behind, but I think it's better than any late exp plays out there. Would be interesting to see it used in the hands of a pro!
Hello Hammer I'm sure you recognize me. I think the reason pros don't use your build is that is falls off with good control and a standard robo opening from Protoss.
Further a standard bio opener has a faster 3:30 expo and more linearly transitions into bio play, the superior choice vs Protoss for many reasons, including skill ceiling (like Maru or InNo)
Also some oracle openers can hit when you've just left your base and may do significant damage to you before you damage them and a second oracle may deflect your initial push.
I've been playing Terran on my PatchZerg account and I'm currently top 100 diamond NA playing standard so this is my two cents as a Master Zerg player.
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EPT
