EPT[G] TvP Hammer Build, Crushing Protoss - Page 12
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On January 30 2015 22:01 SatedSC2 wrote: Pros don't use it because it isn't viable when you're playing against people who know how to react... which is basically anyone with a brain who has seen it once. The first time I faced this strategy I blindly held it off with a msc expand into robo with ease. I'm not even in master league. This build is infinitely easier to hold than a reactor techlab, and that says a lot about it since reactor techlab isn't even considered viable anymore. Hammer just wants to bask in the "awesomeness" of his popularity with newbies - while blatantly ignoring all sorts of criticism, because he knows his build isn't half as good as he claims it to be - instead of admiting any sort of weakness in his build. After all, he advertises that you can have a consistent 70% win rate against high masters and 90% win rate against anything below master league with this build. According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy. | ||
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azurespace
Korea (South)39 Posts
I think this build is not perfect and has some weekness, but it is a nice counter against the recent trends of protoss metagame that begin with msc first nexus and have small amount of army. So I think you don't need to be so sarcastic. It works for ladder at least. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Once again, this strategy doesn't really do any better than a reactor techlab opener. And it doesn't "counter" the popular msc expand at all. How can you even call it a "counter" when the protoss just has to (1) use photon overcharge to buy time, (2) make an observer, and then finally (3) make an immortal to end the push? The rest is just the protoss deflecting a widow mine drop (or failing to do so) that could have been done after opening reaper expand as well. But in this case, you pretty much have to do something like this to compensate for your build order of choice, which more often than not is just going to "crush" your own economy up until this point. It's more like the numbers are the exact opposite - I'd be shocked to see a high master protoss who knows this build is coming not be in a more advantageous position than he'd be against reaper expand at least 70% of the times. | ||
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azurespace
Korea (South)39 Posts
you said this build has no advantage than reactor techlab but i should point out that protoss should make observer first because they saw widow mines and because of this terran has a timing window to push upto the ramp with proper control. Terran should exchange army economically. What about Oracle? The presence of widow mine allows Terran can hold it while the other army are pushIng against Protoss economy. Protoss also knows the opponent went factory very early so if the first push is executed properly they would invest more static defense or scouting observer, blahblah. Additionally, you can check what kind of units the opponent are preparing by the medivac harassment motion. Reactor techlab 2 rax cannot see without scanning. Finally, 2 rax reactor-techlab invest so much resources early for barracks tech so it is hard to transit into mech. This build can. All bo have pros and cons. There is no useless build order if it is optimized well and committed by well-unstanding brain. You have not won by a build order? I think it is not problem of bo. I know a KR GM who start from training 6 reapers in a row. In common sense, it is ridiculous bo and be thought not viable. However he knows very well about the possible decisions his opponent can make, and knows how to deal with them efficient. Even a progamer who plays in proleague conceded the bo may be viable in progaming scene. Maybe you can recall now about the mass reaper game from proleague. well, long words, anyway. I don't think this bo is also viable among progamers. However, I think this is enough to win against diamonds with 90% rate. I guess you just hate the original author personally, But actually it is not hard for Terrans to win against a diamond Protoss regardless of bo, is it? lol | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774266 http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774269 http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774270 http://ggtracker.com/matches/5774276 http://ggtracker.com/matches/5753524 | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On January 31 2015 02:06 vhapter wrote: According to his claim, I should win no more than 10% of my games against this build, so why do I have a 100% win rate against it? The only thing I've seen my opponents "crush" with this build is their own economy. Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On February 01 2015 22:05 DemigodcelpH wrote: Because you don't. To be honest it sounds like you're desperately trying to make yourself feel good about yourself. Bring some replays if you're going to critique. Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy. | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On February 02 2015 03:03 vhapter wrote: Your pitiful ad hominem won't change my numbers. Instead, you should stop being delusional and ask yourself why Hammer hasn't properly replied to SatedSC2's detailed post on how he wrecks this strategy. Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after  Hammer.1928 | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Instead, you blatantly decided to ignore everything that's been said up until now, and now you're trying to get even more attention with a grudge match. Shouldn't you be humbler and tell your fans how to deal with what SatedSC2 mentioned first? But wait, why do that when it's easier to cherry-pick criticism and ask for a grudge with a lower league player? The truth is, whether you beat me or not is unrelated to how players at my level failed to beat me with this build - when in fact, they should be able to win about 90% of their games consistently according to you. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On February 02 2015 04:29 -Hammer- wrote: Your hardon for this build cracks me up. If you don't think it works, why do you care so much? If you're not Terran, why do you care so much? You've been posting here for months, kind of sad. Let's play some practice games, you can post how easily you beat me after Hammer.1928He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On February 02 2015 07:24 DemigodcelpH wrote: He probably loses against it a lot and needs to validate himself by angrily posting in here and pretending he has a 90% winrate. It doesn't make sense for him to constantly come in here without any replays. In your dreams. Why would I ever need to post a replay anyway? What makes you believe I should be willing to go through hundreds of replays in search of something I hardly ever face, just to post a couple of replays that literally nobody is going to bother watching? That assumption is devoid of any logic whatsoever. I don't have to prove anything to you. If anything, Hammer is the one who has something to prove, since he's the one wrote the OP and claims that this strategy can be consistenly more successful than anything standard. Also, just for the record, I never said I have a 90% win-rate against this strategy - it's actually 100%. That number could obviously go down if I played someone much better than me, but that doesn't change the fact that Hammer's claim - that lower league players should be able to win 90% of their games consistenly - doesn't hold true at all against me. | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
On February 02 2015 07:50 vhapter wrote: In your dreams. Why would I ever need to post a replay anyway? What makes you believe I should be willing to go through hundreds of replays in search of something I hardly ever face, just to post a couple of replays that literally nobody is going to bother watching? That assumption is devoid of any logic whatsoever. I don't have to prove anything to you. If anything, Hammer is the one who has something to prove, since he's the one wrote the OP and claims that this strategy can be consistenly more successful than anything standard. Also, just for the record, I never said I have a 90% win-rate against this strategy - it's actually 100%. That number could obviously go down if I played someone much better than me, but that doesn't change the fact that Hammer's claim - that lower league players should be able to win 90% of their games consistenly - doesn't hold true at all against me. Vhapter, this build is OverPowered and i've beaten ~70% of protoss players i face with it in platinum league. It certainly works in lower leagues, and if you master this build it would definitely beat the vast majority of protoss players out there in diamond league. You may not be the vast majority, but this shit works on most people. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
Like I said before, this build probably works really well against anyone who doesn't have a build. You should be able to outright kill a lot of clueless players with it, yeah. That doesn't mean much though, since you'd be just as successful - if not even more - by going reactor techlab. But if you go up against someone in diamond league who knows how to play standard, the likelihood of you actually getting an edge in economy isn't high... especially not to the point you'd get a consistent 90% win rate, or even worse, 70% at high master level. I'm far from being high masters and this build doesn't work on me at all at my level. So how am I suppose to believe someone can win 70% of their games with this build against players that outclass me by far? There's just no way. While this may be a bit off-topic, keep in mind that I'm no stranger to dirty strategies. My win rate on Habitation Station is 74% and I pretty much only played dirty on it - my PvP was double gas steal into proxy voidrays, my PvT was denying reaper scouting while going 5 gate all in (hiding gates on the bottom of the map), and my PvZ was gateway expand at the gold base into a massive immortal zealot push. @ Hammer Oh man, how can people like this even get into master league? lol... Please take a look at the very first reply you've posted recently. This guy's msc comes out 25 second late (4:30) and had no simcity against reapers. That is enough for a simple reaper opener ravage his mineral line. He proceed to build his robo before even his third pylon. You're supposed to build your third pylon right at 4 minutes or so. This guy built it a full minute later (5:00). This guy was just playing by instinct and killing his own economy... He had 29 probes when he should've had 44 at 7:50, which is understandable if you're panicking... except he wasn't even under attack and still cut probes because he decided to go up to 3 gates and refused to build immortals. That's too many mistakes to ignore. | ||
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DemigodcelpH
1138 Posts
On February 02 2015 09:53 vhapter wrote: Oh man, how can people like this even get into master league? Well they do play Protoss. Though in all seriousness if they're in Masters and GM they're clearly significantly better than a player like you in diamond. Perhaps you should stop critiquing players 2 leagues above you and rightfully know your place in respect to their skill? If you think this build is flawed to the point where decent Protosses should have a 100% winrate vs it then post some replays and lets see your 100% winrate you keep harping about. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On February 02 2015 11:48 DemigodcelpH wrote: Well they do play Protoss. Though in all seriousness if they're in Masters and GM they're clearly significantly better than a player like you in diamond. Perhaps you should stop critiquing players 2 leagues above you and rightfully know your place in respect to their skill? If you think this build is flawed to the point where decent Protosses should have a 100% winrate vs it then post some replays and lets see your 100% winrate you keep harping about. Well, if you watch the replays carefully, many players make mistakes or misplace their units to being with. I don't care if you're in master league, if your msc comes out at 4:30 and you don't even simcity the back of your mineral line to deal with reapers, your early game is really bad. This is so bad - 20-25 seconds for a reaper to slaughter your mineral line - that if this guy had been facing a reaper expand, he would have lost more probes with his sloppy opener than I would have if I'd gone nexus first. So contrary to what you think, I am clearly significantly better than this player when it comes to my PvT opener, not the other way around. Whether he's better at other things or perhaps got promoted just because he played more games than me is another issue entirely. There's one GM protoss in the replays who had both his stalker and msc at his ramp on Vaani and his msc got sniped. Leaving your msc at your ramp is pretty dangerous (safest place = between both your main and natural) and that sort of mistake can't be overlooked when you analyze the effectiveness of a strategy. There was another GM guy who took some unnecessary damage at his natural because his msc was very close to his main nexus, so once again, we see arguably poor msc placement. What I'm trying to say is that for this opener to do actual damage, it seems to require the protoss player to mess something up. All in all, I'm not saying you can't possibly win a game with this opener, but that doesn't make the opener itself good. The 4 widow mine drop idea is particularly dangerous if you don't have good map vision or minimap awareness, although it's also a bit of a gamble. But what makes this build different is the initial marauder widow mine attack and how much that delays your expansion... the rest is just a follow up. So once again, losing in the mid-late game to someone who opened marauder widow mine doesn't mean the opener itself was successful. What determines how successful the build was is how much damage you managed to do, not how you were able to outplay your opponent for the rest of the game. | ||
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-Hammer-
Canada107 Posts
On February 02 2015 12:31 vhapter wrote: Well, if you watch the replays carefully, many players make mistakes or misplace their units to being with. I don't care if you're in master league, if your msc comes out at 4:30 and you don't even simcity the back of your mineral line to deal with reapers, your early game is really bad. This is so bad - 20-25 seconds for a reaper to slaughter your mineral line - that if this guy had been facing a reaper expand, he would have lost more probes with his sloppy opener than I would have if I'd gone nexus first. There's one GM protoss in the replays who had both his stalker and msc at his ramp on Vaani and his msc got sniped. Leaving your msc at your ramp is pretty dangerous (safest place = between both your main and natural) and that sort of mistake can't be overlooked when you analyze the effectiveness of a strategy. There was another GM guy who took some unnecessary damage at his natural because his msc was very close to his main nexus, which is also due to his msc placement. All in all, I'm not saying you can't possibly win a game with this opener, but that doesn't make the opener itself good. The 4 widow mine drop idea is particularly dangerous if you don't have good map vision or minimap awareness, although it's also a bit of a gamble. But what makes this build different is the initial marauder widow mine attack and how much that delays your expansion... the rest is just a follow up. So once again, losing in the mid-late game to someone who opened marauder widow mine doesn't mean the opener itself was successful. What determines how successful the build was is how much damage you managed to do, not how you were able to outplay your opponent for the rest of the game. I speak from 100's of games of experience, you speak out your ass Theorycrafting is fun hey! Talk is cheap, lets play. Hammer#1928. I'm on right now. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
If terrans couldn't see their opponents' league, which player would they think is better - (1) a guy who doesn't have an anti-reaper simcity and whose msc only comes out at 4:30, or (2) someone who has proper base layout and a properly timed msc? That's like the bread and butter of protoss in PvT. | ||
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Jakamakala
United States115 Posts
On February 02 2015 12:53 vhapter wrote: How is doing a build order properly, having good base layout, and placing your msc in a safe spot theorycrafting? That's experience - things that I always do in my games. Don't be delusional. If terrans couldn't see their opponents' league, which player would they think is better - (1) a guy who doesn't have an anti-reaper simcity and whose msc only comes out at 4:30, or (2) someone who has proper base layout and a properly timed msc? That's like the bread and butter of protoss in PvT. Hammer I like you and you're a nice guy and I don't particularly agree with the presentation of the counterarguments, but I do have to disagree with you. Your build is more of a one hit wonder to me and is in my opinion, less viable and holds less longevity throughout the game compared to the more standard: Reaper FE into 3 rax which can stop oracles and gives you a fast core army 1/1/1 mine drops that Koreans are starting to favor Both these builds give great aggressive options, smooth transitions, and get your natural down at 3:25 while being safe. Mine drops, IMO, can be integrated into any build and your massive mech push can be put akin to the more powerful SCV pulls. | ||
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klup
France612 Posts
IMO we should stop jerking on everything that is non viable at "pro level". In dota 2 tons of players play on regular basis with heroes and builds that are not viable at "pro level" and nobody go jerking on their face (except the really idiotic ones). The attitude of this community towards alternative openings that derail from the sacro-saint reaper expand is really boring. If alternative build works it is because people are not used to it. Throwing off your opponent with weird build might disorient players that play a by the book ultra boring SC2 and can't adapt . It is a legit strategy and it's not an allin if not designed to. I wish there is more people experimenting builds on ladder especially terrans and zergs. Protoss has already the great book of protoss bullshit and co to provide a lot of fun/weird builds. When you experimenting you ask yourself the right questions like is my build weak to that or this strategy? How can I improve it to make it more Xstrategy proof etc. The most boring matchups in terms of innovations are TvP and TvZ on the terran side. There is like 2-3 builds that are small variant of each other that compete in higher ranks. Anyway go ahead guys continue trashing everything that is not Pro-approved so we can all enjoy the wonderful ladder filled with robotic-players that can execute properly a BO they learn by hearth. I will still go try Hammer, HTOmario builds because they are good enough to ladder with a well thought game plan from early to late game. That is all I need. I maintain top diamond low master depending on my frequency of play with 100 apm for a terran which is low just because I force myself to never play "standard". And about the "your opponents makes mistakes". Yes he will because he is thrown off gard that's the point ! Maru just lost a final because he didn't walled his expand. Tell me more about how GM players don't make mistakes /rant off | ||
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