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How to run a PvT Clinic: HerO at IEM

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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How to run a PvT Clinic: HerO at IEM

Text byTL Strategy
Graphics bynaganis
March 9th, 2014 19:14 GMT


Introduction - blink and the Current PvT Metagame



The PvT metagame has changed greatly in these past few months. Ever since the release of HotS, the meta of PvT was mainly based around defending Terran timing pushes and taking a safe third in order to get both Colossus and high templar to head into the late game. Most Protoss players, mimicking Rain, relied on ultra-defensive Robotics builds in order to get a Colossus out in time to deflect any mid game pressure. This trend changed with the rise of sOs and his Oracle macro builds, which allowed the Protoss to punish a greedy Terran. However, Terrans began to adjust their builds to get marines and turrets out in order to avoid losing SCVs. Then, the rise of blink happened. For a very long time, blink openings were limited to four-gate blink attacks off of one base. Two base blink timings became very powerful due to the ladder maps for Season 1 of ladder in 2014: every single map is very viable for blink with the exception of Habitation Station. These pushes are powerful because they can attack before medivacs get out, which forces the Terran to be extremely selective with their use of stim pack.

The next step in this style's evolution was the rise of the macro blink opening, popularized by Patience's performance at Dreamhack Winter in November, even spawning a Day 9 Daily analzying his revolutionary build, which would soon become a staple in modern PvT, especially for aggressive players like HerO. Notably, while Patience’s build goes for a very quick Robotics Facility, HerO decided to take it in the other direction and go straight into Templar. Along with the change in openers, PvT midgame styles have greatly changed as well. Colossus-based builds have declined recently due to the prevalence of 3-base timings from Terrans involving SCV pulls, resulting in more Protoss players preferring templar openings. HerO used a similar build against InNoVation to great effect and also used it in Game 4 of the same series versus Polt.

Why are these macro blink builds so good? Here are a few strengths of the build:
  • Delays the Terran's medivac timing, forcing him to play more defensively
  • Forces Terran to make adequate defenses or suffer the consequences
  • Very hard for Terrans to determine whether the build is all-in or macro
  • Gives Protoss good map control and mobility
  • Allows Protoss to macro up normally and get AoE at a good timing.


The Map: Polar Night


Before we get to the game, let’s take a look at the map, Polar Night, with specific interest on how the map plays in PvT.

[image loading]


As you can see, there are many attack points for this map. Base choice, especially for the third and fourth bases, is absolutely crucial. The three/nine o’clock (and most commonly taken) bases are very far away from the main bases, the pocket expansions behind the naturals require two sets of rocks to be taken out, and the forward bases are very open and difficult to defend. There are many attack paths on Polar Night and if the Terran has map control, they can essentially surprise the Protoss. The main base also has a lot of dead space in the bottom right/top left, making it hard for Protoss to spot for drops with just one observer. This makes base choice and base defense important because if the Terran player is allowed to constantly attack and harass the Protoss, it becomes very difficult to make a good late game army. The map is also really strong for blink, with four possible attack paths using blink:

[image loading]


As we will see, HerO’s strategy choice and decision making most certainly take the map into mind.


The game in question


The Early Game



Build Order Part 1:
9 pylon
13 gateway
14 gas (3 probes in gas)
16 pylon
18 core
20 zealot
-send probe down at 200 minerals-
-cancel zealot if no Engineering Bay block-
20 nexus
21 MSC
23 gas (3 probes in gas)
24 warp gate
24 stalker



HerO played a very standard one gateway expand with a probe scout immediately after the gateway. He tried to hide the scout, but he cannot see anything besides the fact that Polt had a reaper and a Command Center. HerO used this information to discern that his opponent went for a simple reaper expand. His build differed after the cyber core finishes, as he took a very quick second gas, allowing him to get an early twilight council and start blink rather quickly. Another important thing to note was HerO’s building placement.

[image loading]

Walling off one side of the nexus allows for HerO to deny the scout of the twilight council


HerO went on to scout with his mothership core to make sure that Polt was not going for a widow mine drop or mech play. The MSC scouted three barracks and a squadron of marines and returned home safely, knowing that Polt was going for a standard Medivac opening.

Build Order Part 2:
twilight council @100 gas (around 5:00)
2nd stalker after 1st finishes
blink @100% TC (around 5:50)
3rd stalker ASAP after 2nd stalker
6:45 send probe out to build proxy
3 gateways between 6:50 and 7:00
8:00 blink finishes - attack with stalkers
9:00 templar Archives


With four warp gates and blink, HerO was able to start getting map control and putting pressure on Polt. Because HerO made only four gateways (as opposed to the six of a blink all-in), he was able to constantly make probes and match his opponent’s economy as well as get all four gases early. Although he made one overconfident blink in the middle of the map, he was able to clean up Polt’s marine force and maintain map control. He then did the blink dance around Polt’s bases, picking off a few units and a bunker. HerO demonstrated the power of blink on Polar Night, including blinking into Polt’s main the moment Polt steps out to kill a pylon. Behind this pressure, HerO built a Templar Archives in order to research his “AoE of choice”, storm. The timing of the Templar Archives can vary, but usually correlates to when the Protoss player can no longer do direct damage with blink; in game four of the series, HerO decided that his blink pressure would not accomplish anything and opted to get his Templar Archives at 7:30 instead of 9:00.

The moment the Templar Archives finishes, HerO started storm and warped in 2 high templar right after to allow the HT to gain as much energy as possible.

The Mid Game



HerO’s mid game revolved around being able to take a third and defend Polt’s aggression. His blink stalker opening allowed him to safely tech to high templar while completely skipping a robo. HerO's transition to templar is cheaper and faster compared to colossus, but the downside of that tech choice is that he did not have any observers to scout for drops. His constant probe production and early natural gasses allowed for a big increase in infrastructure as he went on to add three more gateways and two forges. Since Polt was under pressure for a very long time, he knew that he had to be aggressive and do some damage to HerO. The strength of HerO's build was that the blink timing was threatening enough to delay any 2/4 medivac pushes until both charge and storm completed, which is almost impossible off a more conservative Robo opening. HerO was very well prepared for Polt's counter attack, thanks to excellent drop defense (2 high templar and 5 zealots) and a powerful main army. This would stonewall any drop attempts by Polt while allowing HerO to establish and defend his third base. HerO had a huge advantage in the midgame because he had HT and Polt had not even started his ghost academy, allowing him to use his tech advantage to put pressure on Polt. His goal was to buy time to establish his third and Robotics Facility. He knew that if he was attacking Polt, there was no way he could be attacked. If Polt did attempt to attack by dropping him, he would be able to clean up the drop with his great unit positioning and would punish Polt with an attack into a smaller portion of Polt’s army.

Unfortunately, HerO overextended himself at the 14:30 mark. He went for an attack on Polt’s third base, but was repelled due to Polt’s massive army. While HerO had done well in defending his base, he was not able to kill very many of the units that Polt used offensively. However, HerO’s decision to warp in two HT early allowed them to have 200 energy with this push, letting HerO do some damage. Though this attack was repelled, HerO still had an ace up his sleeve.

[image loading]

And you thought Oracles were imbalanced...


The first thing HerO made out of the Robotics Facility was his trademark Warp Prism. He loaded two HT and two zealots into the prism and headed out for Polt’s third. The two storms and zealots killed almost twenty workers, more than making up for the failed attack 3 minutes earlier. Behind this attack, he also managed to tech up to Colossi, setting himself up nicely for the late game.

The Late Game



The biggest aspect of late game PvT is army positioning and the many ways a Protoss can damage a Terran. In reality, there are three main types of attacking:
  • Harassing in multiple positions at once using pylons, warp prisms, and zealot attacks. This approach avoids a direct engagement, allowing the Protoss to get extra bases or a bigger army in order to fight when THEY want to. This keeps the Terran on their toes and forces them to build extra defense, not knowing where the next attack will be coming from.
  • Forcing a 200 vs 200 fight. This is the riskiest choice, and is usually done when the Protoss has a good chance of winning or is in desperation mode. This is rather difficult in PvT, as it is easy to spread high templar in defense, but not when they are on the move.
  • Harassing a base and threatening another base at the same time. This is the tactic that HerO employed throughout the game. His warp prism positioning was extremely potent, allowing him to spread Polt very thinly. His harass forced Polt to constantly make a decision on how many units to send over to deal with it. If he sent too little, the harassment would do a lot of damage. If he sent too much, HerO could simply walk down and ravage Polt’s army and third. This harassment reduced Polt’s SCV count to 35 at 35:00, which allowed HerO to take less cost-efficient fights and still came out ahead

HerO’s late game choices and army positioning allowed him to use his extremely aggressive style to its full extent. The first thing that can be mentioned is his base defense, leaving at least one cannon and one HT near every Nexus. In the previous game, Polt used drops to come back from almost certain defeat and win, showing his ability to snipe nexi. HerO knew that Polt would try the same tactics again in this game and took measures to make sure that the drops did not do crippling damage.

HerO continued with his warp prism harass, storm dropping Polt’s fourth base and abusing the fact that Polt was always slow to react and pull his workers throughout the entire series. HerO’s army position was also very key. He always positioned his army around the left central watchtower. With this, he was able to defend his third and fourth bases and see any potential attacks onto his natural.

[image loading]


At 27:00, an important fight happened. Polt attacked HerO’s third with a twenty supply advantage and 3/3 upgrades (as opposed to HerO’s 2/3). However, HerO had HT spread out behind his third mineral line in order to defend drops, which translated really well into giving HerO a good spread of high templar. Another crucial aspect of this fight was that HerO was able to snipe Polt’s ghost academy with a zealot warp-in. This limited Polt to three Ghosts versus the 11 spread-out HT HerO had. While Polt had a very good army spread, a bigger army (until the middle of the fight), and an upgrade advantage, HerO was able to win the fight and take a decisive advantage in the game.

[image loading]


While the game went on for almost fifteen more minutes, most of it was simply back-and-forth micro and positional battles. HerO took the top left base instead of the one right by his main. Why? The answer is simple, and based on army positioning. If HerO took the base underneath his main, Polt would have had two more avenues of attack and HerO would have had to be spread out very thin, allowing for Polt to potentially make a comeback (as he did on Daedalus Point). By taking the top left base, HerO was able to continue to keep his army at the same watch tower and defend all of his bases.

Since Polt can only surprise HerO in his main, HerO could simply put many units at his main base and can close the door on Polt’s comeback attempt. All HerO had to do was take a half-decent engagement at this point and coast to victory.

Conclusion



In summary, there are many things that we can take away from HerO’s game plan. The first concept is use of aggression to buy time for investments to pay off. HerO demonstrated this three times during the game, with his blink opening to buy time for high templar, his aggression with the high templar to buy time for his Robotics Facility and his third base, and his constant harassment and storm drops to buy time for Colossus and to allow him to catch up in bases. Another concept is base choice. Instead of taking the forward base as a fourth, HerO destroyed the rocks and took the pocket expansion. This expansion went almost completely untouched for the entirety of the game, and the fact that he was able to safely mine from that base gave HerO a huge economic advantage; when it came time to take a fifth base, HerO chose a base that opened the least amount of attack paths, which prevented him from being spread out too thin. The last major concept is map control. HerO’s army was always around the central watchtower, allowing him to see all of the paths to his well chosen bases. Since Polt could not engage head-on into HerO’s army, he had no choice but to drop HerO’s main in order to do damage, allowing HerO to simply defend his main base heavily and use his main army to defend his other bases.

HerO’s well-executed build order, strategical decisions, map usage, and harassment allowed him to clinch the series against Polt. The fact that he could make all of these smart decisions after playing for over 12 hours absolutely astonishes me and gives me an even greater respect for a progamer. Congratulations HerO, you absolutely deserved this championship. GG!

Brought to you by the TL Strategy Team
Writer: Corazon
Graphics: Naganis
Editors: Hayl_Storm, SC2John, Teoita, ZeromuS
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Corazon
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States3230 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-10 01:23:48
March 09 2014 19:16 GMT
#2
Ah my first article ^^ so excited. Thanks guys :D
Thanks to Cheren (Brosistic_Savant on reddit) for the idea of HerO's base location and map positioning
Grubby's #1 Fan
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
March 09 2014 19:18 GMT
#3
As always if there are any concerns regarding the article please pm me
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
viclubsmau4eva
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
13 Posts
March 09 2014 19:22 GMT
#4
On March 10 2014 04:16 Corazon wrote:
Ah my first article ^^ so excited. Thanks guys :D



Great job man awesome stuff here. Keep up the great work!
If you can make it to the top, you can get there agian.
BlueLanterna
Profile Joined April 2011
291 Posts
March 09 2014 19:24 GMT
#5
These pushes are powerful because they can attack before medivacs get out, which forces the Terran to be extremely selective with their use of Stim pack. This forces the Terran to be either extremely selective with their use of Stim pack.


One thing that jumped out at me quickly
HandleMyDeeps
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1 Post
March 09 2014 19:29 GMT
#6
Very good article. I enjoyed this series very much and think it was one of the best PvT series so far this year. The article really put into perspective some of the decision making HerO uses which is always a cool thing to be able to "look into the mind" of a Pro of his caliber.
neverlose9999
Profile Joined October 2012
Canada21 Posts
March 09 2014 19:31 GMT
#7
NOOOOO...
why did you make the analysis for protoss...
this is going to make Terran even harder than before... T^T..
please make an analysis for terran as soon as possible if you can..

weikor
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Austria580 Posts
March 09 2014 19:36 GMT
#8
While Polt had a very good army spread, a bigger army (until the middle of the fight), and an upgrade advantage, HerO was able to win the fight and take a decisive advantage in the game.


I had to laugh a little at that. It makes protoss sound imbalanced.

Good read, I dont need to have seen the match to be able to appreciate this!
igay
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
Australia1178 Posts
March 09 2014 19:48 GMT
#9
great article thanks everyone!
MVP <3 MKP <3 DRG <3
FusionSC2
Profile Joined June 2013
Ireland29 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-10 01:04:57
March 09 2014 19:49 GMT
#10
Beginning of the article, bout the stim pack.




ELFI ELFI ELFI

[Mod Edit: Removed for readibility]

User was warned for this post
I came, I saw, I conquered
stuchiu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Fiddler's Green42661 Posts
March 09 2014 19:56 GMT
#11
BloodyDwf, get off his account.
Moderator
GHOSTCLAW
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States17042 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 20:04:26
March 09 2014 20:04 GMT
#12
er right. Typo. Everyone has seen it
PhotographerLiquipedia. Drop me a pm if you've got questions/need help.
Cheren
Profile Blog Joined September 2013
United States2911 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 20:05:47
March 09 2014 20:05 GMT
#13
Haha, my shitty picture from allthingsprotoss made it in! (if in modified form)
hellokitty[hk]
Profile Joined June 2009
United States1309 Posts
March 09 2014 20:11 GMT
#14
Not enough tempests.
People are imbeciles, lucky thing god made cats.
aZealot
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
New Zealand5447 Posts
March 09 2014 20:18 GMT
#15
I don't think the link to the Day9 on the Patience build is embedded either.

Loved the article, although a fuller read will have to wait until I get home. It's great seeing the expansion of P play in HOTS (after the straight-jacket of WOL). Protoss fighting!
KT best KT ~ 2014
Daimai
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Sweden762 Posts
March 09 2014 20:27 GMT
#16
Right when I am having problems with PvT this comes out! ^^

Gonna try this out!
To pray is to accept defeat.
Darkhorse
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States23455 Posts
March 09 2014 20:35 GMT
#17
Nicely done!
WriterRecently Necro'd (?)
Marcinko
Profile Joined May 2013
South Africa1014 Posts
March 09 2014 20:47 GMT
#18
On March 10 2014 04:16 Corazon wrote:
Ah my first article ^^ so excited. Thanks guys :D


Awesome guide, well done man.
....
Lilbow
Profile Joined January 2014
France3 Posts
March 09 2014 20:51 GMT
#19
This topic is very late, agressive blink's power decreased a lot because of the MSC nerf and widow mine up. Scouting with MSC is no longer viable so the protoss need to open with a robo or a stargate in order to find out what is going on. You should have make this topic 2 or 3 weeks ago D:
Promethelax
Profile Joined February 2012
Canada7089 Posts
March 09 2014 20:52 GMT
#20
On March 10 2014 04:16 Corazon wrote:
Ah my first article ^^ so excited. Thanks guys :D


Nice job buddy. Looks good.
TL Mafia. Love it. Play it. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31 I find Kennigit really attractive. If anyone has a picture of him please feel free to PM it to me.
Zealously
Profile Blog Joined October 2011
East Gorteau22261 Posts
March 09 2014 20:56 GMT
#21
On March 10 2014 05:51 Lilbow wrote:
This topic is very late, agressive blink's power decreased a lot because of the MSC nerf and widow mine up. Scouting with MSC is no longer viable so the protoss need to open with a robo or a stargate in order to find out what is going on. You should have make this topic 2 or 3 weeks ago D:


I think you underestimate how much time goes into an article like this

Besides, many of the core ideas are the same even if pulling it off has become slightly more difficult.
AdministratorBreak the chains
fireforce7
Profile Joined June 2010
United States334 Posts
March 09 2014 21:32 GMT
#22
Nice analysis. Thanks to the players for providing such in depth games to make content out of!
I'm terranfying
Corazon
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
United States3230 Posts
March 09 2014 21:46 GMT
#23
On March 10 2014 05:51 Lilbow wrote:
This topic is very late, agressive blink's power decreased a lot because of the MSC nerf and widow mine up. Scouting with MSC is no longer viable so the protoss need to open with a robo or a stargate in order to find out what is going on. You should have make this topic 2 or 3 weeks ago D:


Yes I agree with your point there. However, it's still worth noting parts of HerO's play that don't have to do with the build.
I wrote this a week after the game, but it does take a long time to get these out.
Grubby's #1 Fan
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10115 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 22:27:27
March 09 2014 22:26 GMT
#24
This editorial is so full of errors it's not even funny. In the first section alone:

You repeat the "introduction: ..." statement.

You repeat "this forces Terrans to be conservative with their stim" or something like that.

No link in the (link).

This is just a small snippet of the errors. I expect more from TL.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
OlDan
Profile Joined April 2011
Austria36 Posts
March 09 2014 22:35 GMT
#25
Dude, don't be discouraged, it's a great article. Little typos etc. will get corrected, no need to worry too much about it.
vjcamarena
Profile Joined October 2013
Spain493 Posts
March 09 2014 22:40 GMT
#26
Very nice article! :D
Mvp and ForGG! - Vortix FTW - Never forget Lucifron
Xinzoe
Profile Joined January 2014
Korea (South)2373 Posts
March 09 2014 22:45 GMT
#27
Can you list the timing of storm drops?
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
March 09 2014 23:07 GMT
#28
On March 10 2014 05:51 Lilbow wrote:
This topic is very late, agressive blink's power decreased a lot because of the MSC nerf and widow mine up. Scouting with MSC is no longer viable so the protoss need to open with a robo or a stargate in order to find out what is going on. You should have make this topic 2 or 3 weeks ago D:


If you had ever tried producing any article as good as those written by TL strat you would know that is not possible.
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10115 Posts
March 09 2014 23:13 GMT
#29
On March 10 2014 07:35 OlDan wrote:
Dude, don't be discouraged, it's a great article. Little typos etc. will get corrected, no need to worry too much about it.

I'm not discouraged, I'm doing something about it as we speak: applying to be an editor.

Typos aren't actually present in this article. The errors that are present range from minor language grievances to inhibiting reading flow to straight up missing important links. The errors are many, great, and are not appropriate for a website of this magnitude and status.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
Teoita
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Italy12246 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-09 23:21:21
March 09 2014 23:15 GMT
#30
I don't see any glaring errors in there except one typo (and the missing vod links).
ModeratorProtoss all-ins are like a wok. You can throw whatever you want in there and it will turn out alright.
MrTortoise
Profile Joined January 2011
1388 Posts
March 09 2014 23:24 GMT
#31
nice write up

any links to a vod?
My wife was actually going into labour during this series.
She was not all that impressed when i had to explain to her that hero was making the world cry tears of win and she should just suck it up for another day.
CrumpetMan
Profile Joined January 2014
United States5 Posts
March 09 2014 23:43 GMT
#32
Really cool analysis. Especially of little touches that many pros do, but are rarely talked about, such as the building placement.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-10 00:34:56
March 10 2014 00:29 GMT
#33
On March 10 2014 08:13 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 10 2014 07:35 OlDan wrote:
Dude, don't be discouraged, it's a great article. Little typos etc. will get corrected, no need to worry too much about it.

I'm not discouraged, I'm doing something about it as we speak: applying to be an editor.

Typos aren't actually present in this article. The errors that are present range from minor language grievances to inhibiting reading flow to straight up missing important links. The errors are many, great, and are not appropriate for a website of this magnitude and status.


That's all my bad I was really busy this week and when I did have time to convert the post I did so quickly and goofed up. I can get a Red to edit it but Waxangel is not online and he is the one who would need to make the changes, so we'll have to live with it until the morning when he gets up.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Isarios
Profile Joined March 2014
United States153 Posts
March 10 2014 01:38 GMT
#34
Thank you all for the hard work you've all put into making the thread. It definitely does bring up some great strategy analyses.

I like how you talk about the strategy and what the aggression and map control are used for, which is what I learned from sOs with his Skytoss builds. A lot of people I find don't understand how to use their strategies at all. What is the aggression for? Why did you move your army in that direction? What exactly does your MSC need to scout for to be safe. Instead of try to scout everything (logic based).

I too feel like there are a few things that could be better though. One of which is that I'd like a lot more in depth clarification and understanding on the choice of 5th base. I feel like the analysis provided does not help me understand what the reasoning was (I can read, what I'm saying is that it doesn't clarify). Which attack paths are closed? Why can't Polt attack the natural? He has done that before I think in that game and in the other ones where he was a mass Nexus murderer.

One cool thing that I took from that game was actually form the Terran perspective. Immediately after I saw that game I asked on battle.net forum how Polt micros and manages to avoid storms. We came to the consensus that he pre-splits and has much more effective dodging on the defensive set up concave than he does on the offensive. Thus lowering his in battle APM need.
Blahhh
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
March 10 2014 01:50 GMT
#35
On March 10 2014 10:38 Isarios wrote:
Thank you all for the hard work you've all put into making the thread. It definitely does bring up some great strategy analyses.

I like how you talk about the strategy and what the aggression and map control are used for, which is what I learned from sOs with his Skytoss builds. A lot of people I find don't understand how to use their strategies at all. What is the aggression for? Why did you move your army in that direction? What exactly does your MSC need to scout for to be safe. Instead of try to scout everything (logic based).

I too feel like there are a few things that could be better though. One of which is that I'd like a lot more in depth clarification and understanding on the choice of 5th base. I feel like the analysis provided does not help me understand what the reasoning was (I can read, what I'm saying is that it doesn't clarify). Which attack paths are closed? Why can't Polt attack the natural? He has done that before I think in that game and in the other ones where he was a mass Nexus murderer.

One cool thing that I took from that game was actually form the Terran perspective. Immediately after I saw that game I asked on battle.net forum how Polt micros and manages to avoid storms. We came to the consensus that he pre-splits and has much more effective dodging on the defensive set up concave than he does on the offensive. Thus lowering his in battle APM need.


Polt has always been the kind of player who pre splits his units and holds a position, this is because his active micro vs banelings for example is bad when compared to someone like MKP. But Polt's decision making (when to do big drops) and ability to hold an aggressive position in a defensive way (pre concaves, contains) is fantastic. He plays to his strengths and i think understanding yourself as a player is very important and Polt is very good at understanding himself.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
Isarios
Profile Joined March 2014
United States153 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-10 02:15:31
March 10 2014 02:14 GMT
#36
On March 10 2014 10:38 Isarios wrote:
Thank you all for the hard work you've all put into making the thread. It definitely does bring up some great strategy analyses.

I like how you talk about the strategy and what the aggression and map control are used for, which is what I learned from sOs with his Skytoss builds. A lot of people I find don't understand how to use their strategies at all. What is the aggression for? Why did you move your army in that direction? What exactly does your MSC need to scout for to be safe. Instead of try to scout everything (logic based).

I too feel like there are a few things that could be better though. One of which is that I'd like a lot more in depth clarification and understanding on the choice of 5th base. I feel like the analysis provided does not help me understand what the reasoning was (I can read, what I'm saying is that it doesn't clarify). Which attack paths are closed? Why can't Polt attack the natural? He has done that before I think in that game and in the other ones where he was a mass Nexus murderer.


One cool thing that I took from that game was actually form the Terran perspective. Immediately after I saw that game I asked on battle.net forum how Polt micros and manages to avoid storms. We came to the consensus that he pre-splits and has much more effective dodging on the defensive set up concave than he does on the offensive. Thus lowering his in battle APM need.

By Zeromus: (Sorry, I haven't figured out how to make the quotes work right).
Polt has always been the kind of player who pre splits his units and holds a position, this is because his active micro vs banelings for example is bad when compared to someone like MKP. But Polt's decision making (when to do big drops) and ability to hold an aggressive position in a defensive way (pre concaves, contains) is fantastic. He plays to his strengths and i think understanding yourself as a player is very important and Polt is very good at understanding himself.


Yeah, this was something I didn't know about Polt.
Same thing, I feel like I know my play style pretty well. I tend to have pretty low APM, so I tend to prefer strategy to win vs APM or micro. So I do a lot of double prong attacks and play macro style more because I'm pretty bad with my all-in micro.
Blahhh
AussieStarcraft
Profile Joined October 2013
Australia31 Posts
March 10 2014 06:49 GMT
#37
On March 10 2014 04:16 Corazon wrote:
Ah my first article ^^ so excited. Thanks guys :D
Thanks to Cheren (Brosistic_Savant on reddit) for the idea of HerO's base location and map positioning


Nice work, really enjoyed the breakdown. I really liked HerO's base construction style to limit the scouting a map where you are exposed from so many potential angles. Very clever!
http://www.youtube.com/user/AussieStarcraft
MrMischelito
Profile Joined February 2014
347 Posts
March 10 2014 07:45 GMT
#38
nice. GJ. really interesting read!
corpsepose
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1678 Posts
March 10 2014 08:23 GMT
#39
sick analysis, this was one of the best series in hots so far imo
http://www.twitch.tv/corpsep0se
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
March 10 2014 08:50 GMT
#40
thx guys, awesome stuff here:, takes balls of steel and alot of work to post a guide!

(wierd that some people only post in a topic too troll or whine about a typo, doez id raelli madter iv thare ar sone teipo's when its stilll quite readadle?).
The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
Faust852
Profile Joined February 2012
Luxembourg4004 Posts
March 10 2014 14:49 GMT
#41
Please stop helping protoss and do a TvP analysis instead D:

JK, really nice write up, thank you guys.
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
March 10 2014 16:32 GMT
#42
The deny of the scout on the twilight council was pretty nice, but it was less because of the wall and more because the reaper never went close enough to the wall to see it. Vision radius should be large enough to catch the edge of the twilight without having to go behind the nexus. Short version: Polt failed.

Anywhooo, once storm AND colossi are out, there isn't very much damage you can do as a Terran, especially when you're forced to pick between vikings or medivacs when you need to simultaneously be teching into ghosts. I've seen better PvT by Hero, and Polt wasn't impressive at all.
twitch.tv/duttroach
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
March 10 2014 18:23 GMT
#43
On March 11 2014 01:32 dUTtrOACh wrote:
The deny of the scout on the twilight council was pretty nice, but it was less because of the wall and more because the reaper never went close enough to the wall to see it. Vision radius should be large enough to catch the edge of the twilight without having to go behind the nexus. Short version: Polt failed.

Anywhooo, once storm AND colossi are out, there isn't very much damage you can do as a Terran, especially when you're forced to pick between vikings or medivacs when you need to simultaneously be teching into ghosts. I've seen better PvT by Hero, and Polt wasn't impressive at all.


1) It's becoming VERY common to wall off one side of the mineral line to deal with reapers. While it doesn't necessarily completely stop the reaper from scouting, it makes it a lot easier to control where the reaper goes and often times Terran players wouldn't suicide their reaper into a wall hoping that the twilight council is close enough to scout; that's dumb.

2) Polt played the same way all weekend and wrecked several Protosses, including Rain, Classic, Mana, and Stardust. Polt's strategic thinking is godlike and deserves to be respected, even if his mechanics are not necessarily mind-blowing (AKA never pulling SCVs vs. storm drops lol). Once storm and colossus are out, there are two ways to deal with it: either start building a big scary ghost/viking army of your own, much like TaeJa or Kas; or to catch the Protoss out of position and pull their economy apart, which Polt's playstyle excels at doing. The beauty of this game was that HerO made a bunch of good decisions of where and how to defend his bases that completely stonewalled Polt's more positional playstyle.

StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
vidium
Profile Joined January 2012
Romania222 Posts
March 10 2014 19:58 GMT
#44
Really nice post, Polt has one of the most interesting terran playstyles, for me at least. Kinda sad he lost but as always you learn a lot from watching the best play.
I really liked the comparison between oracle and the warp prism drop, and now its kinda funny when i see casters shout so much when an oracle gets 3-5 kills, and storm drop can kill all you workers at one base and you dont even have time to react.
You ever notice how no one returns to the barracks?
dUTtrOACh
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada2339 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-10 23:26:40
March 10 2014 23:24 GMT
#45
On March 11 2014 03:23 SC2John wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 11 2014 01:32 dUTtrOACh wrote:
The deny of the scout on the twilight council was pretty nice, but it was less because of the wall and more because the reaper never went close enough to the wall to see it. Vision radius should be large enough to catch the edge of the twilight without having to go behind the nexus. Short version: Polt failed.

Anywhooo, once storm AND colossi are out, there isn't very much damage you can do as a Terran, especially when you're forced to pick between vikings or medivacs when you need to simultaneously be teching into ghosts. I've seen better PvT by Hero, and Polt wasn't impressive at all.


1) It's becoming VERY common to wall off one side of the mineral line to deal with reapers. While it doesn't necessarily completely stop the reaper from scouting, it makes it a lot easier to control where the reaper goes and often times Terran players wouldn't suicide their reaper into a wall hoping that the twilight council is close enough to scout; that's dumb.

2) Polt played the same way all weekend and wrecked several Protosses, including Rain, Classic, Mana, and Stardust. Polt's strategic thinking is godlike and deserves to be respected, even if his mechanics are not necessarily mind-blowing (AKA never pulling SCVs vs. storm drops lol). Once storm and colossus are out, there are two ways to deal with it: either start building a big scary ghost/viking army of your own, much like TaeJa or Kas; or to catch the Protoss out of position and pull their economy apart, which Polt's playstyle excels at doing. The beauty of this game was that HerO made a bunch of good decisions of where and how to defend his bases that completely stonewalled Polt's more positional playstyle.



Right on. I didn't see any of Polt's other matches. I'll have to do some catching up.

EDIT: And about storm drops... they're just one of the beautiful things that we only hope the observer catches on time.
twitch.tv/duttroach
ArTiFaKs
Profile Joined September 2013
United States1229 Posts
March 11 2014 05:07 GMT
#46
Very nice write up, really good stuff thanks guys.

And I think now with mines getting the buff, when HerO decides to get the templar archive, I think you can get a Robo first for an obs, and just delay your Templar Archives slightly. Although I'm not sure how it works out yet. And then maybe just getting 1 templar as soon as Archives finish while getting storm instead of 2 until you have enough gas. Also, the vision radius on the MSC isn't stupidly big but is still enough to where you can get a pretty decent scout off if you control it correctly that scouting a quick mine build shouldn't be too hard to get a robo in time or some kind of detection, etc.

But, all the things about army positioning and base selection are really interesting. And something I'm looking for more when watching pro-matches. I wish casters picked up on these things more and could highlight these decisions better in-game, which is something Day9 is really good at and doesn't get enough credit for as a caster imo (people seem to dislike day9's casting and it's baffling to me).

Loved the article as my PvT has been suffering as of late. The new variations on the Terran side with mines has surely made it much more interesting to watch, and much more difficult to play haha. Looking forward to the next one!
There are things known, and things unknown, and in-between are the doors.
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10115 Posts
March 11 2014 13:39 GMT
#47
Good job fixing the errors. Only a few remain but it's not nearly the trainwreck it was before. THIS is the type of quality I expect from TL ^^;
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
5p4z3n3k0
Profile Joined January 2013
Netherlands19 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 14:09:10
March 11 2014 14:08 GMT
#48
I might get banned but this isn't a whine, Just want to know why there are so much Protoss guides on TL? Why are the other races so bad represented ?

Is it purely because you only have Protoss writing staff ? Does the "Editor"decide what stories/guides will be posted ?

I would realy like to know !! Pls, thanks in advance !


Edit: on a side note, the guide itself looks good, needed to be said

User was temp banned for this post.
Don't wake me! I'm working...
EsportsJohn
Profile Blog Joined June 2012
United States4883 Posts
March 11 2014 15:34 GMT
#49
On March 11 2014 23:08 5p4z3n3k0 wrote:
I might get banned but this isn't a whine, Just want to know why there are so much Protoss guides on TL? Why are the other races so bad represented ?

Is it purely because you only have Protoss writing staff ? Does the "Editor"decide what stories/guides will be posted ?

I would realy like to know !! Pls, thanks in advance !


Edit: on a side note, the guide itself looks good, needed to be said


This is a question we've been getting a lot. Our editing staff is mostly Protoss...we have like one or two Terran and Zerg writers and they aren't very active, so we don't really get a lot of other guides released. However, we're working on releasing more guides for other races. Personally, I've made it a goal to start releasing a lot more Zerg guides, since we've had very little Zerg guides released on TL aside from blade5555's personal guides.

We're always looking for high-level players willing to write though! Seriously, if any Terran or Zerg players are interested in writing for TL, just give us a pm and let us know!
StrategyAllyssa Grey <3<3
WaSteR
Profile Joined February 2014
United States3 Posts
March 12 2014 05:01 GMT
#50
man i need cup of coffe pen and paper time to take some notes and master this! thanks guys for this <3
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