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Before you dismiss this as a troll post, hear me out:
Widow mine. 75 minerals, 25 gas.
1 mine (75/25), 160 damage, kills:
Infinity clumped probes (50)
Zealot (100)
Stalker (125/50)
Sentry (50/100)
High Templar (50/150)
Dark Tempalar (125/125)
Oracle (150/150)
Observer (25/75)
2 mines (150/50), 320 damage, kill:
Infinity clumped HT or Sentries
Mothership Core (100/100)
Phoenix (150/100)
Warp Prism (200)
Void Ray (250/150)
3 mines (225/75), 480 damage, kill:
Archon (100/300)
Immortal (250/100)
Colossus (300/200)
Tempest (300/200)
Carrier (350/250 + interceptors)
5 mines (375, 125), 800 damage, kill:
Mothership (400/400)
This unit literally kills every single Protoss unit in the game resource and supply efficiently (assuming gas is more important than minerals when it's close).
It's invisible. You can make two at once.
So...
Why not just go mass mines with some Vikings/Ravens to deny observers into Mech? Add on Thors for some base killing damage.
DISCUSS!
EDIT - I don't mean #YOLOSWAG monobattle mine troll build. I just mean make a high ammount of mines, burrow them around the map, and constantly build PFs everywhere while denying vision with Raven/Viking. Eventually get to a big Mine/Raven/Thor army.
Obviously not a high level strategy, but it should work well into Masters. I have a buddy doing this with nearly 80% win rate since HotS came out. He plays random and his TvP is by far his strongest matchup.
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Storm, Hallucinations, half the protoss arsenal outranges is?
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Haha, at the beginning of HotS I used this as a gimmicky, off-the-wall build.
I would use mines to delay Protoss advancements until they got obs, and then I would save up scans and use vikings to pick off observers while forcing them to either run blindly into my mine field or disengage. Mixing in some cloakshees makes it even better. I actually recall winning a large amount of games, oftentimes securing a fifth base and then transitioning to skyterran.
It actually worked against Zerg, as well - I would go mass viking for overlord kills, then when they would go muta/hydra/whatever, I would just lead their army into my mine field of death :D
Good times.... but seriously, I don't think it works against anyone half decent, but you can get some funny wins out of it in anything low masters and below (though with MMR decay, you can never know these days :p )
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If we're going to troll anyways;
Interceptor, 25 mineral, rebuild rate of 8s (less with chrono) vs 40 of mine.
1 carrier beats like 10 mines. ez
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theres a reason why hellion marauder didnt work in WoL in TvP.
In theory, hellions would wreck zealots while the marauders would demolish just about everything else. But ingame, it just got destroyed so hard because of upgrade issues and varying speeds between the hellion and marauder when kiting.
As for this, widow mines don't work in TvP because they get outranged stalkers and colossus to the point where if the terran player masses them in deathball engagements. They become a huge waste of resource
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Don't think this thread complies with the Strategy Forum guidelines (no [G] or [D] tag, nicely structured layout or replays) but anyway...
Many Protoss units outrange the mines, Blink Stalkers especially work very well and you'll have no army to speak of.
Protoss can just spam units at you to absorb mine shots and then kill you with whatever is left.
You'll also have very little to defend yourself with since Protoss can just run his units away when he seems them burrowing.
Primarily though, most of your mines will die long before they get their shots off, Vikings/Ravens will not be able to protect them from that.
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HAHA.
Okay so I'm not advocating monobattling Widow Mines and just running into a clump of Protoss as some seem to be suggesting.
But given that, splash damage issues aside, Widow Mines can hold their own vs. basically any Protoss unit (keep in mind the mines splash, too), what's to stop a mass mine / Viking / Ghost or Raven / Thor army from being viable?
Since mines are basically guaranteed to trade efficiently with anything they hit, and they are invisible, you can use Raven/Viking to deny vision and then force bad engagements into mine fields. As long as you're making any effort to target his splash damage (Vikings, Seekers, Ghosts)... should work. Add some thors and voila.
I've seen guys get to masters on pure Viking Raven Banshee TvP. At anything below pro level I think this is feasible.
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and if we were the microbot 2000 we could beat infinity banelings with 0 marine loss.
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On November 21 2013 04:44 iaguz wrote:
and if we were the microbot 2000 we could beat infinity banelings with 0 marine loss.
True, but we're not. This is exactly what I'm talking about. Maybe at your level Iaguz people are good enough, but even in Masters I find people have a hard time dealing with Raven/Viking observer denial + Mines or Banshee.
I'm not saying monobattle widow mines because they're imba. I'm saying the borderline abusive vision denial that Viking/Raven provides and the fact that Widow Mines actually trade pretty well with most Protoss units AND are invisible means that the style has to be playable up to a certain point on the ladder.
Maybe not top Aussie GM  but certainly in Plat/Diamond/Masters!
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If you go for mass mines then you rely on the protoss having no detection or kill the observers with vikings. In this scenario you are better off with mass ghost who can even kill the HT's before they storm and you can shoot permanently.
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On November 21 2013 05:01 TrOn_sc2 wrote:
If you go for mass mines then you rely on the protoss having no detection or kill the observers with vikings. In this scenario you are better off with mass ghost who can even kill the HT's before they storm and you can shoot permanently.
Yes, but unlike ghots, Mines are actually cheap, fast to make, and trade resource efficiently. It is impossible for a Zealot to kill a mine, for example. It's a combination of that effectiveness and the vision denial that makes the strateg so good.
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They trade cost effectively but then not every mine will hit and there is always the possibility for friendly fire. It has potential but Protoss certainly has plenty of ways to play that could deal with it.
That said unless your aiming at playing tournaments I think it is worth playing in more creative ways occasionally(maybe even if you are in tournaments), it is more fun than just copying what others have done or playing what is currently considered 'standard'.
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This sounds like something Avilo would do
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Storm rapes it, Colossus rapes it, any form of ranged AOE rapes it, sorry but this idea is horrible and so is this thread. Good luck getting in rage of a Protoss army with any number of colossus, and if you're doing some defensive/contain style, storm will rape the mines, chargelots will make them splash your own shit, etc etc.
Being a pure mech player which loves unorthodox stuff I've fooled around a lot with mines, there's some fun stuff you can do with it and it but its just not reliable.
On November 21 2013 05:30 Whatson wrote:
This sounds like something Avilo would do
No it doesn't because avilo is a safe macro player that hates gimmicks or any kind of risk (which is basically what the strategy suggested by the OP is).
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dark templar cost 25 gas now? dt drops all day baby
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Canada8159 Posts
On November 21 2013 04:05 SC2Toastie wrote:
Storm, Hallucinations, half the protoss arsenal outranges is?
This pretty much sums up why to not get widow mines
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On November 21 2013 05:30 Whatson wrote:
This sounds like something Avilo would do
Avilo does not believe in mines. Shameful.
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Anything that comes from the factory protoss has like 15 different ways of beating it and they do not differ from the regular units they would normally make.
Unfourtunately mass mine just wouldn't work outside of a one-time gimic fight.
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Yes, but unlike ghots, Mines are actually cheap, fast to make, and trade resource efficiently. It is impossible for a Zealot to kill a mine, for example. It's a combination of that effectiveness and the vision denial that makes the strateg so good.
I never tried it, but just by theory it cant be good. There is no way to put real agression onto the protoss you can only harras, which is not enough pressure. Though you may be able to get 30 Mines faster than the same number of ghosts, but the army is still very weak. First you cant kill buildings, not even proxy pylons so toss is will have every expansion that we wants to. Then what are you going to vs Tempest? Only fighting them with vikings is not going to be enough if the toss has HT's. Other than that this mass mine, viking, raven army that you propose is only going to be for one engagement. The next warpin by the protoss is going to kill.
I mean you can try to make it work, but the chance that this will never work in a high-level game is almost 100% in my opinion!
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Blink stalkers actually completely rape mines. Both in terms of moiblity and cost efficiency.
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On November 21 2013 04:06 Nightsz wrote:
theres a reason why hellion marauder didnt work in WoL in TvP.
In theory, hellions would wreck zealots while the marauders would demolish just about everything else. But ingame, it just got destroyed so hard because of upgrade issues and varying speeds between the hellion and marauder when kiting.
As for this, widow mines don't work in TvP because they get outranged stalkers and colossus to the point where if the terran player masses them in deathball engagements. They become a huge waste of resource
Hmmm this is false. The reason why hellion marauder did not work against protoss was not because of the upgrade issue. The main issue was that in straight up fight, hellion can not beat zealot cost effectively. The only way they are cost effective is if they kite their target because this allow them to clump up. In straight up engagement, there is not much clump and zealot will form a wall and kitting isnt an option because it leaves marauder expose. So basically it wasnt viable because there wasnt anything that did well against the zealot.
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On November 21 2013 05:32 fried_rice wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 05:30 Whatson wrote:
This sounds like something Avilo would do No it doesn't because avilo is a safe macro player that hates gimmicks or any kind of risk (which is basically what the strategy suggested by the OP is).
Well, I was more saying that because of the OP saying something like "make planetaries all over the map, build a thor viking raven banshee army, etc. etc.", not gonna waste the time to quote exactly, but that just seems like a very avilo like playstyle
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Dominican Republic34 Posts
On November 21 2013 11:57 Whatson wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 05:32 fried_rice wrote:On November 21 2013 05:30 Whatson wrote:
This sounds like something Avilo would do No it doesn't because avilo is a safe macro player that hates gimmicks or any kind of risk (which is basically what the strategy suggested by the OP is). Well, I was more saying that because of the OP saying something like "make planetaries all over the map, build a thor viking raven banshee army, etc. etc.", not gonna waste the time to quote exactly, but that just seems like a very avilo like playstyle
Avilo's Mech playstyle revolves around using Tanks. Not Thors since they have horrible AA. He does use Ravens to sort of counter Immortals with Seekers since it's a spell and bypasses there shields and also offer PDDs and a safer route for deeper in the game to be prepared for the protoss transition to air units. He goes Banshee if he doesn't scout any transtion into air units and only pure gateway units. Hes also been trying out Blue Flame Hellions to snipe High Templars.
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Because they shoot once every 2 freaking minutes and everything protoss has except zealots and probes can shoot them before mines can shoot back, and cam only shoot when buried.
you can make it work against a player 2 leagues below yo
i like how you list all good things but you don't lost any disadvantages
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On November 21 2013 09:34 Hider wrote:
Blink stalkers actually completely rape mines...in terms of...cost efficiency.
This is absolutely and completely wrong. Like every other ground unit in the game stalkers are not cost efficient against mines (or in fact against any mech units at all). One mine (cheaper than a stalker) kills a stalker. As you get higher unit numbers the battle swings even further in favor of mines.
Of course with their mobility, range and blink they should never get shot or be in a fight against mines and despite losing horribly in straight-up fights, they are the reason there's no high-level mech vs P in SC2.
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doesn't mass mine just lose straight up to colossi?
if you are mass mine like 30 mines, then they will inevitably stack up and then get roasted by the lasers. Vikings are supposed to help but the positioning of the protoss army should be similar to that when fighting bio/vikings. Also mine drops can't kill tech structures so I don't see how it would be better.
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On November 21 2013 13:47 althaz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 09:34 Hider wrote:
Blink stalkers actually completely rape mines...in terms of...cost efficiency. This is absolutely and completely wrong. Like every other ground unit in the game stalkers are not cost efficient against mines (or in fact against any mech units at all). One mine (cheaper than a stalker) kills a stalker. As you get higher unit numbers the battle swings even further in favor of mines. Of course with their mobility, range and blink they should never get shot or be in a fight against mines and despite losing horribly in straight-up fights, they are the reason there's no high-level mech vs P in SC2.
They're probably talking about blinking onto clumped up mines one stalker at a time.
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On November 21 2013 04:44 iaguz wrote:
and if we were the microbot 2000 we could beat infinity banelings with 0 marine loss.
Innovation can. Almost.
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I wall you in with my gate ways and cannons, you only have mines. Your move.
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i make a tank and kill your proxy
on serious note, yes they are cost efficient, but so are carriers / battlecruiser vs anything except voidray tempest.
its highly impractical - blink stalkers can dodge the mine shots- in medium and small numbers blink stalkers straight out win. You also open yourself up a lot since they need to reposition themselves constantly, and unburrowed mines just die. - and 3 mines wont win against 10 stalkers.
I can see more mines beeing used. yet going for just mines will end you getting eaten by storms (they have the same problem marauders do, while needing to burrow before doing any damage - very hit and miss.
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I can summarize what needs to be known here for everyone:
If you are dealing with airtoss and he falls asleep at the wheel, you can walk a huge ball of mines underneath his army and wipe him out.
If he has stalkers, collossus, an observer, a brain, 2 thumbs, or a photon cannon, you are out of luck
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I was wondering about this too:
What instead of core MM, you did Mine+bat. Gas goes into "support" units that give your army range (tank/viking/thor).
So instead of having 10 medivac, you would have 10 tank that deal with the range issue. You position with the 13 range until P engages. The bats tank the zeals, and you wait until the P tech units (archon/immortal/void) are exposed, and run in and drilling claw burrow on top of them like melee units.
If stalkers blink onto your tanks, then u just burrow your mines on to your tanks and blast the stalkers away.
Edit:
I've done a bit of testing with this, and the biggest issue I've run into is storm. If you are forced to ghost to deal with storm, or accumulate tank (like mech does right now), then this idea sucks.
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Dino it might be best if you provide replays of this strategy working. This way you can provide examples of this strategy in a real game.
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On November 21 2013 04:06 SC2Toastie wrote:
If we're going to troll anyways;
Interceptor, 25 mineral, rebuild rate of 8s (less with chrono) vs 40 of mine.
1 carrier beats like 10 mines. ez
I'm pretty sure you can't chronoboost units.
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Day9 had a great funday monday on mass mine.
There was a pretty entertaining GM game (fuzer vs Kane) where mass mine won, despite 10,000 overseers getting made xD.
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Please do this, i will collect free wins.
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also it would suck when your opponent goes warp prism harass. Mines don't 1 shot warp prisms (and Protoss can use obs to scout the mine positions), and then they warp in zealots into your mineral line. Mines suck there because they would splash the workers...
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On November 21 2013 09:22 Doc Brawler wrote:
Cannons.
/thread
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On November 21 2013 18:06 golledaman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 04:06 SC2Toastie wrote:
If we're going to troll anyways;
Interceptor, 25 mineral, rebuild rate of 8s (less with chrono) vs 40 of mine.
1 carrier beats like 10 mines. ez I'm pretty sure you can't chronoboost units.
I'm pretty sure you can chronoboost Carriers.
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Colossi bzzzzz bzzzz + 1 storm = all mines are dead (and each mine costs 2 limit!
ill better make ravens or tanks or ghosts or thors or vikings or hellbats on this supply
mines work
1)vs single-harassing oracles
2)sometimes vs warp prisms
3)vs _PURE_ tempests (rare thing but t should keep this in mind)
4)vs mass voids (but who makes mass voids - do not understands pvt mech)
5)vs single dts
6)map control and base-blocking purposes
7)some 11 gas openings
Archons are pwning mines easily because of splash damage and archons are huge (splash works bad) - fields of mines are just not effective
mines are just too weak for their supply
(not cost-efficient compared to other units)
gml eu t here
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I dismiss it as a troll post.
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I did this in Beta. Was fun and i beat masters with it 
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In team games could be funny. I will try this: 2 cc opening -> WM -> ravens+vikings.
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Honestly i wouldnt be surprised if you could win a few games here and there with mass mines but it would be purely because of the "wtf is this" effect. Kind of like mech but worse ^^ But this goes for anything really. Alot of crazy stuff you can win with just because nobody expects or starts to panic while the answers are very obvious most of the time.
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Ok so this posts make me want to do it but with a twist ! BC/Mines. Should be fun as i'm stuck in Bronze because i don't play often and i can't get promoted it seems :p
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Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this.
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On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this.
In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are.
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On November 21 2013 23:49 drkcid wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this. In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are.
Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. To clarify: only very bad players are going to walk straight into 80+ supply (or however much it is) of mines more than once without making any effort to deal with them. Slow pushing across the map backed up by cannons is perfectly viable and is merely the first idea that came into my head (especially given the need for Protoss to support armies with forward pylons anyway).
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On November 21 2013 23:53 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 23:49 drkcid wrote:On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this. In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are. Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. To clarify: only very bad players are going to walk straight into 80+ supply (or however much it is) of mines more than once without making any effort to deal with them. Slow pushing across the map backed up by cannons is perfectly viable and is merely the first idea that came into my head (especially given the need for Protoss to support armies with forward pylons anyway).
Ah sorry, as a bad player I usually see people moving forward with their armies without care, maybe this strategy wont be used by pros but I think that its a good idea to keep in mind.
And its good to see something different than the old bio.
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On November 21 2013 20:32 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 18:06 golledaman wrote:On November 21 2013 04:06 SC2Toastie wrote:
If we're going to troll anyways;
Interceptor, 25 mineral, rebuild rate of 8s (less with chrono) vs 40 of mine.
1 carrier beats like 10 mines. ez I'm pretty sure you can't chronoboost units. I'm pretty sure you can chronoboost Carriers.
And sadly I am mistaken qq
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At least it defends oracles.
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On November 22 2013 00:02 SC2Toastie wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 20:32 SC2Toastie wrote:On November 21 2013 18:06 golledaman wrote:On November 21 2013 04:06 SC2Toastie wrote:
If we're going to troll anyways;
Interceptor, 25 mineral, rebuild rate of 8s (less with chrono) vs 40 of mine.
1 carrier beats like 10 mines. ez I'm pretty sure you can't chronoboost units. I'm pretty sure you can chronoboost Carriers. And sadly I am mistaken qq
You can't chorno units yeah.
But if you want you can chronoboost your friend's hacthery
OT : A TvT with only mines would be cool
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It is impossible for a Zealot to kill a mine
It's not if you use a Warp Prism...
Btw... can a Phoenix lift a mine before it fires at the Phoenix?
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On November 22 2013 00:13 ciox wrote:It's not if you use a Warp Prism... Btw... can a Phoenix lift a mine before it fires at the Phoenix?
That would be an interesting fact. I don't think i ever saw that.
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On November 22 2013 00:13 ciox wrote:It's not if you use a Warp Prism... Btw... can a Phoenix lift a mine before it fires at the Phoenix?
Yes it can. MC did this early in hots at an mlg i believe.
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On November 21 2013 23:53 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 23:49 drkcid wrote:On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this. In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are. Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. To clarify: only very bad players are going to walk straight into 80+ supply (or however much it is) of mines more than once without making any effort to deal with them. Slow pushing across the map backed up by cannons is perfectly viable and is merely the first idea that came into my head (especially given the need for Protoss to support armies with forward pylons anyway).
I've used the strategy of mass mines as an opener in TvP and had decent success at high diamond/low masters level with it (I did it a lot in beta and early HotS, but haven't used it in a while). By the time your slow-push with cannons makes it across the map, I'll be on my third or fourth base, with planetaries either up or going up in front of each base and mines to support, with my sky terran transition well underway.
If you think of using colos or anything else to poke, my vikings/cloakshees shut you down, as I snipe your obs with one of my 20 available scans and viking cloud, and then proceed to cloakshee you while you cry on the way back to your cannons. When you come back, realizing you'll need nonstop obs production so you bring a handful of obs this time, I'll have my ghost bc raven viking army, and the war of micro between protoss and terran deathballs will commence, which is the same result as a late game terran mech army (which can CRUSH in a straight-up fight vs. toss, unlike bio). It turns out that EMP + Yamato + pdd/seeker missle works pretty well. Protoss can still win, of course; but it comes down to decision making and control.
Obviously, this strategy has weaknesses, and is on the whole less viable than standard mech, which is less viable than bio. However, maybe you can see now how many toss players will lose to this their first time playing against it. This only works against someone who blindly follows a build and expects their opponent to play standard; but a smart player who is adept at scouting, reacting, and finding a good timing to hit can certainly crush it.
tl;dr - Using mass mines to expand and then turtle to skyterran/ghost works at least up to low Masters. If you want to have fun, I can personally recommend it, you'll have a blast. But if you are trying to become the best SC2 player in the world, then don't try it at home, kids.
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On November 22 2013 01:16 CakeSauc3 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2013 23:53 -Celestial- wrote:On November 21 2013 23:49 drkcid wrote:On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this. In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are. Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. To clarify: only very bad players are going to walk straight into 80+ supply (or however much it is) of mines more than once without making any effort to deal with them. Slow pushing across the map backed up by cannons is perfectly viable and is merely the first idea that came into my head (especially given the need for Protoss to support armies with forward pylons anyway). I've used the strategy of mass mines as an opener in TvP and had decent success at high diamond/low masters level with it (I did it a lot in beta and early HotS, but haven't used it in a while). By the time your slow-push with cannons makes it across the map, I'll be on my third or fourth base, with planetaries either up or going up in front of each base and mines to support, with my sky terran transition well underway. If you think of using colos or anything else to poke, my vikings/cloakshees shut you down, as I snipe your obs with one of my 20 available scans and viking cloud, and then proceed to cloakshee you while you cry on the way back to your cannons. When you come back, realizing you'll need nonstop obs production so you bring a handful of obs this time, I'll have my ghost bc raven viking army, and the war of micro between protoss and terran deathballs will commence, which is the same result as a late game terran mech army (which can CRUSH in a straight-up fight vs. toss, unlike bio). It turns out that EMP + Yamato + pdd/seeker missle works pretty well. Protoss can still win, of course; but it comes down to decision making and control. Obviously, this strategy has weaknesses, and is on the whole less viable than standard mech, which is less viable than bio. However, maybe you can see now how many toss players will lose to this their first time playing against it. This only works against someone who blindly follows a build and expects their opponent to play standard; but a smart player who is adept at scouting, reacting, and finding a good timing to hit can certainly crush it. tl;dr - Using mass mines to expand and then turtle to skyterran/ghost works at least up to low Masters. If you want to have fun, I can personally recommend it, you'll have a blast. But if you are trying to become the best SC2 player in the world, then don't try it at home, kids.
+1000000000000000
This is exactly what I'm talking about.
Terran players are always complaining that Protoss has all these builds they can do on ladder while they are limited. But something like this is ALWAYS really unexpected and hard for someone to react to if they haven't played against it before. You do some sort of cheesy mine opening to put them off while they're trying to get to Colossus, then you show up with Sky Terran! By the time they figure out how to react you're on 4-5 bases with PFs, mines, Vikings, Ravens, etc.
I've lost to this as Protoss a few times on the ladder, and it wasn't close. I've also won with it as Terran off racing against Protoss. It's incredibly fun.
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On November 22 2013 01:34 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 01:16 CakeSauc3 wrote:On November 21 2013 23:53 -Celestial- wrote:On November 21 2013 23:49 drkcid wrote:On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this. In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are. Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. To clarify: only very bad players are going to walk straight into 80+ supply (or however much it is) of mines more than once without making any effort to deal with them. Slow pushing across the map backed up by cannons is perfectly viable and is merely the first idea that came into my head (especially given the need for Protoss to support armies with forward pylons anyway). I've used the strategy of mass mines as an opener in TvP and had decent success at high diamond/low masters level with it (I did it a lot in beta and early HotS, but haven't used it in a while). By the time your slow-push with cannons makes it across the map, I'll be on my third or fourth base, with planetaries either up or going up in front of each base and mines to support, with my sky terran transition well underway. If you think of using colos or anything else to poke, my vikings/cloakshees shut you down, as I snipe your obs with one of my 20 available scans and viking cloud, and then proceed to cloakshee you while you cry on the way back to your cannons. When you come back, realizing you'll need nonstop obs production so you bring a handful of obs this time, I'll have my ghost bc raven viking army, and the war of micro between protoss and terran deathballs will commence, which is the same result as a late game terran mech army (which can CRUSH in a straight-up fight vs. toss, unlike bio). It turns out that EMP + Yamato + pdd/seeker missle works pretty well. Protoss can still win, of course; but it comes down to decision making and control. Obviously, this strategy has weaknesses, and is on the whole less viable than standard mech, which is less viable than bio. However, maybe you can see now how many toss players will lose to this their first time playing against it. This only works against someone who blindly follows a build and expects their opponent to play standard; but a smart player who is adept at scouting, reacting, and finding a good timing to hit can certainly crush it. tl;dr - Using mass mines to expand and then turtle to skyterran/ghost works at least up to low Masters. If you want to have fun, I can personally recommend it, you'll have a blast. But if you are trying to become the best SC2 player in the world, then don't try it at home, kids. +1000000000000000 This is exactly what I'm talking about. Terran players are always complaining that Protoss has all these builds they can do on ladder while they are limited. But something like this is ALWAYS really unexpected and hard for someone to react to if they haven't played against it before. You do some sort of cheesy mine opening to put them off while they're trying to get to Colossus, then you show up with Sky Terran! By the time they figure out how to react you're on 4-5 bases with PFs, mines, Vikings, Ravens, etc. I've lost to this as Protoss a few times on the ladder, and it wasn't close. I've also won with it as Terran off racing against Protoss. It's incredibly fun.
The complaint is not the limit of builds.... it's 'the limit of viable builds that are actually good. Terran arguably has the most theoretical openings with all the addon switches and easier access to early tech. This widowmine shenanigan stuff is not viable. It's essentially a troll build.
You'll get the odd win here or there if you're playing against bad opponents (yes diamond league is also bad in the grand scheme of things). But any decent player will shut this down the first time and any half-decent player will never lose twice to this strategy.
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On November 22 2013 01:44 fighter2_40 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 01:34 DinoMight wrote:On November 22 2013 01:16 CakeSauc3 wrote:On November 21 2013 23:53 -Celestial- wrote:On November 21 2013 23:49 drkcid wrote:On November 21 2013 23:29 -Celestial- wrote:
Cannon "outposts" all over the map to provide vision and fire support safezones.
Done. I could see it working from time to time but there's a ton of ways to handle this. In SC2 "deathball" edition I dont see anyone making "outposts", It will be easier to see someone blindly go A+forward into your minefield and then come back to TL forums to cry about how imba the WM are. Not entirely sure what you're trying to say here. To clarify: only very bad players are going to walk straight into 80+ supply (or however much it is) of mines more than once without making any effort to deal with them. Slow pushing across the map backed up by cannons is perfectly viable and is merely the first idea that came into my head (especially given the need for Protoss to support armies with forward pylons anyway). I've used the strategy of mass mines as an opener in TvP and had decent success at high diamond/low masters level with it (I did it a lot in beta and early HotS, but haven't used it in a while). By the time your slow-push with cannons makes it across the map, I'll be on my third or fourth base, with planetaries either up or going up in front of each base and mines to support, with my sky terran transition well underway. If you think of using colos or anything else to poke, my vikings/cloakshees shut you down, as I snipe your obs with one of my 20 available scans and viking cloud, and then proceed to cloakshee you while you cry on the way back to your cannons. When you come back, realizing you'll need nonstop obs production so you bring a handful of obs this time, I'll have my ghost bc raven viking army, and the war of micro between protoss and terran deathballs will commence, which is the same result as a late game terran mech army (which can CRUSH in a straight-up fight vs. toss, unlike bio). It turns out that EMP + Yamato + pdd/seeker missle works pretty well. Protoss can still win, of course; but it comes down to decision making and control. Obviously, this strategy has weaknesses, and is on the whole less viable than standard mech, which is less viable than bio. However, maybe you can see now how many toss players will lose to this their first time playing against it. This only works against someone who blindly follows a build and expects their opponent to play standard; but a smart player who is adept at scouting, reacting, and finding a good timing to hit can certainly crush it. tl;dr - Using mass mines to expand and then turtle to skyterran/ghost works at least up to low Masters. If you want to have fun, I can personally recommend it, you'll have a blast. But if you are trying to become the best SC2 player in the world, then don't try it at home, kids. +1000000000000000 This is exactly what I'm talking about. Terran players are always complaining that Protoss has all these builds they can do on ladder while they are limited. But something like this is ALWAYS really unexpected and hard for someone to react to if they haven't played against it before. You do some sort of cheesy mine opening to put them off while they're trying to get to Colossus, then you show up with Sky Terran! By the time they figure out how to react you're on 4-5 bases with PFs, mines, Vikings, Ravens, etc. I've lost to this as Protoss a few times on the ladder, and it wasn't close. I've also won with it as Terran off racing against Protoss. It's incredibly fun. The complaint is not the limit of builds.... it's 'the limit of viable builds that are actually good. Terran arguably has the most theoretical openings with all the addon switches and easier access to early tech. This widowmine shenanigan stuff is not viable. It's essentially a troll build. You'll get the odd win here or there if you're playing against bad opponents (yes diamond league is also bad in the grand scheme of things). But any decent player will shut this down the first time and any half-decent player will never lose twice to this strategy.
But what defines good?
Sending 1 Zealot 1 Stalker and 1 MsC to attack a Terran base doesn't really seem like a "good" build. But when every single Terran does the same exact opening with 100% predictability, I can time it so those three units arrive before your bunker finishes and your Reaper is on my half of the map. Now it's a good build!
Pretty much every single Protoss is opening up Gate, Cyber, Nexus, Robo, Forge.
So why not go rax, proxy factory, CC with a wall off? And then just WALK the widow mine into his base? It will get there way before his robo is done and deny a LOT of mining time.
People will say something is bad just because the pros don't do it. But some builds that pros do are actually BAD if we try to do them. Some extremely greedy openings they do are only good because they have insane micro and can hold with very few units. As a Naniwa fan who has tried Void Rays vs. Hydras.... it just doesn't work without the micro.
So you may say this is really easy to defend because the Protoss just does XYZ which is why pros never do it. But 99.9% of us are not pros, we will never be pros, and we can win using seemingly dumb strategies. Hell, Gaulzi was beating Grandmaster pros with cannon rushes.
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Htomario mech relies heavily on mines in late game and from the replay it is actually pretty strong but what you are suggesting is just a theory craft.
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On November 21 2013 13:52 gobbledydook wrote:
doesn't mass mine just lose straight up to colossi?
if you are mass mine like 30 mines, then they will inevitably stack up and then get roasted by the lasers. Vikings are supposed to help but the positioning of the protoss army should be similar to that when fighting bio/vikings. Also mine drops can't kill tech structures so I don't see how it would be better.
If you are dumb enough to just mass Mines, then of course.
The idea here, and I've faced this exact strategy, is that you get Vikings too. You scan with the Vikings to clear Observers and pick off Colossus or Carriers who can give the Mines trouble., then you swarm forward with lots of Mines right up close to an enemy army watch it explode.
The counter is Storm, Time Warp, Hallucinations and Force Fields, with Cannons to defend your bases. Force Fields and Time Warp are important to hold the mines back from getting to close, Hallucinations (hallucinate Stalkers because they are fast and spawn two per hallucinate, meaning you can set off Mines, or Hallucinate Phoenixes and try to run them into the Viking ball) are good for setting off Mines, and Storm kills em off.
It is a pretty frustrating strategy to play against and one that is easier to execute than defeat. But once you get enough Templar and Sentries, it is really easy to defeat. You don't even need Observers, you just clear out areas of the map with Storms. If the Mines get too close, make Archons.
The real difficulty in facing this strategy is getting Storm out quick enough if they are really getting a lot of Mines fast (and it is easy to get a lot of Mines fast). I suppose if a Terran mixed in Ghosts, this could be, in theory, be more more difficult to deal with, but would they would have the resources to do that?
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you realize that blink stalkers can trigger a mine without taking any damage. so a 1 or 2 base blink all in would shut this down pretty easily i think.
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On November 22 2013 03:50 Erik.TheRed wrote:
you realize that blink stalkers can trigger a mine without taking any damage. so a 1 or 2 base blink all in would shut this down pretty easily i think.
Maybe if you have the micro of Parting and the quickness of reflex to see where every mine is and react to it while microing against OTHER UNITS besides mines, such as a siege tank, or banshees.
The point is not to monobattle mines.... i don't know how often I have to say this.
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1. High Templars are a great counter to Mines. Vikings cannot stop Templars from getting into Storm positions.
2. In order for Mines to have any offensive prowess, you have to unburrow them, YOLO SWAG charge into the Protoss army, then burrow. However, Protoss has lots of tools in their arsenal to stall this process: Force Fields, Time Warps, Blink etc. With good control, it is almost impossible to get enough Mines close to the Protoss army without first sacrificing a substantial number of Mines. This is a major issue when discussing Mine cost efficiency against Protoss.
Against a composition of Mines, Vikings and Thors, Protoss can counter with Immortal/Stalker ball with High Templar and Sentry support. Protoss can easily mineral dump into Warp Prism harass, Zealot run-bys, and space control with Cannons.
Immortals/Stalkers are the beef of the army, and are used to deal with Vikings and Thors as well as provide finishing power against buildings. Templars and Sentries are used to deal with the Mines. In theory, Thors can crush Force Fields and absorb Storm damage, but the speed difference is the issue. If you lead the charge with Thors, Protoss can simply pull back. You'll then have to pull back in turn or watch your Mines overtake Thors and get Stormed/FFed. Vikings will be flying paperweights, as even observers aren't 100% necessary.
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it's funny that everyone is hearing your side of the story and dismissing it in 2 separate threads but you still think it's viable. you got owned and couldn't think of a counter on the fly. Instead of learning from it and not getting caught offguard again you tell everyone and their mother that it's a viable strategy
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On November 22 2013 04:44 aldochillbro wrote:
it's funny that everyone is hearing your side of the story and dismissing it in 2 separate threads but you still think it's viable. you got owned and couldn't think of a counter on the fly. Instead of learning from it and not getting caught offguard again you tell everyone and their mother that it's a viable strategy
It's funny that instead of discussing the strategy you're being really immature about calling me out on something?
I'm not saying it's unbeatable.. far from it. I AM saying that it's hard to play against, is easier to execute than it is to defend, and is very different from what most Protoss players are used to playing. So you can catch them off guard with it.
PvT is the matchup that I am the most confident in, and I have lost to this strategy a few times on ladder recently. When I play TvP I sometimes do this for fun and still win with it.
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On November 22 2013 04:27 dyDrawer wrote:
1. High Templars are a great counter to Mines. Vikings cannot stop Templars from getting into Storm positions.
2. In order for Mines to have any offensive prowess, you have to unburrow them, YOLO SWAG charge into the Protoss army, then burrow. However, Protoss has lots of tools in their arsenal to stall this process: Force Fields, Time Warps, Blink etc. With good control, it is almost impossible to get enough Mines close to the Protoss army without first sacrificing a substantial number of Mines. This is a major issue when discussing Mine cost efficiency against Protoss.
Against a composition of Mines, Vikings and Thors, Protoss can counter with Immortal/Stalker ball with High Templar and Sentry support. Protoss can easily mineral dump into Warp Prism harass, Zealot run-bys, and space control with Cannons.
Immortals/Stalkers are the beef of the army, and are used to deal with Vikings and Thors as well as provide finishing power against buildings. Templars and Sentries are used to deal with the Mines. In theory, Thors can crush Force Fields and absorb Storm damage, but the speed difference is the issue. If you lead the charge with Thors, Protoss can simply pull back. You'll then have to pull back in turn or watch your Mines overtake Thors and get Stormed/FFed. Vikings will be flying paperweights, as even observers aren't 100% necessary.
If they go Storm you get ghosts. Your viking/raven denies observers and your ghosts can pick off their Templar, giving your mines free YOLOSWAG reign over their army.
I know because I've died to it.
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I actually lost to a mass widow mine style awhile ago when i was rankin up an account and lost to a diamond due to being unfamiliar to the style. Even though I encountered it once on ladder, i still dont know how to beat it or how i would be able to.
Here is the replay: http://ggtracker.com/matches/4137392
any tips on how to beat this style?
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This was my take on DT Corsair during HotS beta. It worked fairly well but don't expect it to work now the games been out a while and people don't just run into them blind now.
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Polt can mass mines and get to masters in NA. And by mass mines I do mean monobattles.
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When your strategy is countered by any combination of forcefields, time warp, stalkers, collossi, storm and cannons/observers you know you're in trouble.
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On November 22 2013 07:17 DinoMight wrote:Show nested quote +On November 22 2013 04:44 aldochillbro wrote:
it's funny that everyone is hearing your side of the story and dismissing it in 2 separate threads but you still think it's viable. you got owned and couldn't think of a counter on the fly. Instead of learning from it and not getting caught offguard again you tell everyone and their mother that it's a viable strategy It's funny that instead of discussing the strategy you're being really immature about calling me out on something? I'm not saying it's unbeatable.. far from it. I AM saying that it's hard to play against, is easier to execute than it is to defend, and is very different from what most Protoss players are used to playing. So you can catch them off guard with it. PvT is the matchup that I am the most confident in, and I have lost to this strategy a few times on ladder recently. When I play TvP I sometimes do this for fun and still win with it.
I hate to break it to you man, but aldo is right. If anything, he's trying to help you realize something important even if he seems a bit harsh to you. Even if you hope to get more insight by means of discussion, it feels like you're really just looking for an excuse to blame your loss on it.
I remember how bad I was a while ago this year and blowing games against mech all the time. PvT was arguably my strongest matchup at the time, and I was pretty damn confident against standard terran strategies. Then in a "practice clan war", I pretty much had this game won... and blew it. I couldn't get over it at first, since I firmly believe I could have easily beaten this guy... had he played standard. I asked aldo for help - we went over the replay, replayed some moments, talked about army composition, follow ups, etc.
We didn't have a perfect answer to everything. We had the right idea about transitioning to air at some point, but what we had in mind was voidrays - yet, nowadays I believe mass tempest is vastly superior to that. And guess what? I also find mech much easier to beat than standard terran now.
Now, I'm a guy who is pretty stubborn at times. Sometimes I come up with the craziest build order ideas that most people often times dismiss without second thought. But I do agree on certain stuff with other players too. What I think you're missing here is a practice partner to go over your replays (and theirs as well) like I've done with aldo and sc2john a few times. To be honest, the majority of the biggest improvements I've made in the past few months most likely stem from that.
There's only so much we can see and learn by ourselves in a competitive game like sc2 - even koreans know that. Which is why Kespa teams practice the way they do and constantly share their thoughts, work on builds together, and even have an actual coach. It's so important that you even see team mates helping players in their booths after losing a game in a tournament! I have a friend that gets so pissed off when he loses that he completely ignores stuff you tell him... and I'll tell you what, he can barely improve with this poisonous mindset. Even if he hasn't played any games and you're just chatting, he has such an ego that he looks for excuses not to work on the things he should - simply put, doesn't give a damn.
If you like the idea of watching replays with other people and that kind of stuff, feel free to add me (vitusk8@hotmail.com).
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You say this is not a troll and to just hear you out, but then you don't actually say anything apart from listing how much dmg the unit does. Like, how do you imagine using them? At what time? etc
Anyway, the answer is try it yourself and write down the experience, or ask in the simple questions thread.
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Stalkers > Mines. They out range them. Easy as that. And if the protoss was to go Blink then you would have a really serious issue. If they take it on a bit later then you have ranged collosi to contend with or HT with storm which can just lay down 2-3 and demolish a bunch of mines or more.
I feel in the end though that you would be too susceptible to Protoss harassment. Play it too safe and you will lose control of the map very easily, play it too aggressive and you will get demolished by simple drops/oracle play. I don't think it would be possible to work out a 'perfect balance'. Your composition lacks any cutting edge to beat an enemy army, mines are more harassment/defensive units. They don't scale well against the big scale armies which is what the protoss will be creating right from the start.
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EPT
