On November 14 2013 04:50 Rickyvalle21 wrote: I tried the build out on on Star Station, which is a map just as good for it, and couldnt get it to work because of widow mine drop. Any tips on how to Approach this?
On November 14 2013 05:30 Nebuchad wrote: I tried it 4 times and I got destrooooooyed. I suck at the game obviously (platinum), and I can't seem to hit the timing correctly. Needs more practice than it might look like it does (or better fundamentals than mine in the first place).
Not much to say other than this allin is not quite as strong as other all-ins. Like Salvation said, the point is not to win with brute force, it's to mind game your opponent. That said, it might not be as viable a build in lower levels (although I think it still transitions out okay if you do at least SOME damage).
Dealing with widow mines is probably pretty tricky. If your opponent stays defensive with widow mines, the best response in my eyes is to just transition into robo/forge as soon as possible. If he's being aggressive with the widow mines...maybe look to duckdeok's game vs. Maru for some inspiration.
On November 14 2013 06:15 SalvationII wrote: Haha, nice writing you did here.. :D
The Mainpart of this build is not to win with brute force but with out-mindgaming your opponent and letting him play greedier and unsafer then against a 1-base all in. You don't expect a Toss to blink all in you when he sees a fast expand. My version is out of a 17 Nexus, which leads the terran into playing even more greedy, like 2 rax fast starport or even 3 CC. It hits at the same time with the same amount of stalkers, so I think playing this all in out of a 17 nexus mindfucks an opponent even more.
In the end it's a pretty solid all in for the ladder and even for tournaments.
EU-GM toss's opinion.
I believe duckdeok does a version off of (14 gate) 17 nexus in one of his games against Innovation. But yeah, the idea is similar and perhaps even stronger with a 17 nexus instead of a standard MSC expand. I'll make a special note of this in the OP.
On November 14 2013 07:12 AgamemnonSC2 wrote: I made an audio build for this, hope it helps!
NOTE: Not building the Zealot will result in better build order timing. Cancel Zealot if safe, or do not build it at all.
Thanks to IMBA Builds for the Replay.
Oh, and this is my first one. So any suggestions are welcome!
Thanks, man, sweet! I'll link this in the OP! As far as suggestions go, try not to sound like you're reading off a script as much. Other than that, great work!
On November 14 2013 06:15 SalvationII wrote: Haha, nice writing you did here.. :D
The Mainpart of this build is not to win with brute force but with out-mindgaming your opponent and letting him play greedier and unsafer then against a 1-base all in. You don't expect a Toss to blink all in you when he sees a fast expand. My version is out of a 17 Nexus, which leads the terran into playing even more greedy, like 2 rax fast starport or even 3 CC. It hits at the same time with the same amount of stalkers, so I think playing this all in out of a 17 nexus mindfucks an opponent even more.
In the end it's a pretty solid all in for the ladder and even for tournaments.
EU-GM toss's opinion.
I used to do this too but only in Wol when nexus first was viable. I would nexus first and follow up with quick blink obs or gateway all in and win the majority of the time. How are you going nexus first in the current map pool though? Even pros rarely nexus first on whirlwind and frost.
I think he means 14 gate -> 17 nexus. Nexus first is usually on 16.
1. Terran clearly misses what's going on, I just roll him 2. Terran knows what's going on, I try it anyway, do A LOT of damage with good micro and good map for this (star station), he dies to follow up push 3. Terran knows what's going on, I fake the pressure, he invests a ton in defense, meanwhile I had double forge and storm researching, he eventually I guess figures out what's happening and goes for a SCV all in, is met with storm archon chargelot blink stalker nexus cannon and gets absolutely rolled
On November 14 2013 11:02 Jer99 wrote: I can't wait to see this 100% of the time vs protoss on ladder
I actually think this is better than the 1-base version, because of the mind-gaming factor as well as the ability to transition out of it. I already defended 2 1-base Blink allins today, and it was much easier just because when you see that many early Stalkers and a Twilight, there's nothing else it can reasonably be, and from there the defense is pretty much mapped out for you (slight variation depending on maps). With this build, you have to be very sharp on the reactions and scouting. After all, Twilight on two bases can be fast Templar, DTs, Gateway defense of 3 bases with Charge/Blink, or this build. This variation is very sharp (as chess players would describe it).
On November 14 2013 17:49 NeThZOR wrote: Awesome build :D
On November 14 2013 21:47 NovemberstOrm wrote: Thanks for posting the build even though I don't play Protoss :D
On November 13 2013 15:35 Cyro wrote: <3
On November 13 2013 15:42 [CCSRAM] BaoQuan wrote: Nice write up!
On November 13 2013 17:11 NET wrote: Awesome. Thank you sir for the writeup.
On November 13 2013 18:29 JiYan wrote: nice writeup!
On November 14 2013 02:35 BronzeKnee wrote: Awesome writeup. But the proper name is the DuckFeok build.
On November 14 2013 06:59 ffadicted wrote: Sick build, I'm gonna def try this. I like the aggro-pressure style, I'm the type that loves playing a reactive style, so I approve 100% of this over a 1 base definite all-in.
No problem, thank you! I also want to note that I did a greedier version of this build in 2's and it is A GREAT build for 2's.
On November 16 2013 11:49 AgamemnonSC2 wrote: I wish I had mentioned this in the audio build:
Your forward probe should scout if there is an expansion or not. This is especially important in the lower/not pro leagues!!!
A one basing opponent can be beaten, you may need to defend for a bit.
On December 04 2013 12:33 eNtitY~ wrote: How do you defend reaper with 14 Gate -> 17 Nexus? Or am I just doing the order of the core/gas/pylon wrong?
Going for an early nexus like that unfortunately makes you vulnerable to reaper plays. The best way to deal with a reaper in those situations is to use a zealot or two and probes to distract the reaper long enough to get your MSC and a stalker out. It's not TOO bad if you lose a few probes (3-4) since you have an earlier nexus.
I was excited about this build mostly because the OP said that it looks standard and you can deny scouting so you can either do the all-in, or play something completely opposite like quick 3 nexus or robo standard. Then I watched the VODs vs Innovation and Maru... he commits to the build before being able to deny reaper scout.
vs Innovation: Reaper scouts it instantly. Innovation simply should have been prepared for both DT and blink. He wasn't ready for either.
vs Maru: No reaper, no scan. Maru really just didn't scout for it and still nearly won the game anyway. He saw blink when he lost the marines at the front and didn't put up more bunkers until it was too late.
2 base blink all-in is great, but expect people to scout it (reaper expands are so common) and for them to quickly learn how to deal with it properly. The build gets twilight council before a stalker is out, so there is no chance to deny a reaper. If there are other games in which he is able to deny the reaper scout, please post it. I imagine it's not this build though.
Could you modify this to get stalker (finished) -> MSC (finished) -> twilight council, or will that be too slow to get there before stim? I imagine that you don't need blink until you are near his base, so delaying it 20-30 seconds seems reasonable to deny scouting.
Put the twilight somewhere outside your base if you want to commit to all-in, remember he can always scan if his reaper dies without seeing anything (a lot of high level terrans will), or learn some light fake pressure transition out of this. Because of popularity of blink all-ins, terran will freak out and over-defend if he sees a twilight council tbh
On December 06 2013 06:45 ffadicted wrote: Put the twilight somewhere outside your base if you want to commit to all-in, remember he can always scan if his reaper dies without seeing anything (a lot of high level terrans will), or learn some light fake pressure transition out of this. Because of popularity of blink all-ins, terran will freak out and over-defend if he sees a twilight council tbh
If he overcommits I think the best answer will be to fake pressure and proceed to macro game.
On December 06 2013 06:45 ffadicted wrote: Put the twilight somewhere outside your base if you want to commit to all-in, remember he can always scan if his reaper dies without seeing anything (a lot of high level terrans will), or learn some light fake pressure transition out of this. Because of popularity of blink all-ins, terran will freak out and over-defend if he sees a twilight council tbh
This is a powerful enough build that the terran must scout and respond IMMEDIATELY in order to stop. As long as your timing is tight, you don't need to worry about having to try to be tricky. The other part to this build is the fact that you already have 38 probes total and a second nexus, so you can pressure and transition out of it much more reliably than a 1-base blink allin.
On December 06 2013 14:22 KingofGods wrote: Anybody else read the title "bs" as "bull s***" ?
That's the idea .
On December 09 2013 12:14 9-BiT wrote: This might prompt me to switch to protoss. I think I have lost all my dignity.
I think that the potential to snipe stim researching with this build is a huge factor in how successfully the build works. I usually hit with it as stim is nearing completion so I typically target researching tech labs before anything else.
I have been doing this build on mainly Akilon Wastes for over half a year now, it's a great build. When I saw Duckdeok use it I knew he was gonna smash the terrans, since it's just that flexible. I usually would continue probe production after the first 2 warpins (I'd hit with 9-11 stalkers, while building robo and 2 extra gasses). Snipe the tech lab's on the bar's first and then just continue to poke in with that group of units, while teching up to upgrades, storm and charge. If you research charge the moment you get into the base of the terran, any counterattack will get smashed by you, even IF you somehow lose the blink stalker army.
EPT
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