I have been discussing with my friends a lot lately how Mech is going to be played out in all matchups and who is forcing the static defense vs Tank/Raven dota nonsense that happens more often then not.
My opinion is that it is the Swarm Host mainly, because In my experience, attacking with Mech into Vipers, Swarm Hosts, Ultralisks or Mass Muta is extremly difficult unless something weird happens in my favor early game.
Maybe if I had Flash's execution, I would try some timings, but in my case, I can only win with mech (vs static D) by playing like this:
I was not initially going to play like this, usually I will drop few Hellbats or even Thors to snipe far away expos, force some movements, attack here and there, since against Swarm Hosts you can actually move around map with few units (otherwise a suicide move with mech). I also go for quick banshees and push SH out before creep and crawlers get there from time to time. But this guy seemed like he wanted the cheap win.
Feel free to critise my gameplay or anything really. Hopefully some reasonable discussion can happen here (no high hopes though).
Note that I have been playing defensive Mech from the day 1 of SC2 and I was always meching in all matchups, even TvP in WoL. But recently I just recieve insane amount of hate, mostly because of my style of play. I don't play like this in all matchups, TvT is by far the most interesting matchup, TvP is really fun to play mech too. It is really hard and rewarding, but TvZ seems rather silly.
only switch to air works, and works great, see strelok
personally im gm eu mech terran and i have problems vs SH only when i lost the midgame and i dont have good economy and creep is right under my base
without air it is almost impossible to deal with them, they are killing any ground pushes (and they are weak vs Z in general, but vs SH are just impossible), you are just losing 10-15% of your army while dealing 0 damage each locust wave, then muta on your several thors (mass thors can't do anything vs sh) -> dead
but with good to-air builds it is pretty OK
about your replay: its not flash execution its flash mindgames and preparing vs > some zergs <
1) i dont like your opening you are playing blindly it sometimes can work but it is just bad in general
2) you dont have any possibilites to scout anything
OK, you are placing 3rd CC with 2 tanks (smth like safe, but really not), and then ? what will u do? you even dont know does zerg have 3rd or not
play something like that: no gas cc -> +2 gas -> fac+reactor, lab on rax -> 4 hellions -> (first two scouts 3rd about 6:30 mark) -> THEN place 3rd!!! OR move tank to lab and prepare for push!
there are also reapers openings but i dont like them personally, because they are map-dependant (akilon, yeonsu OK, while on whirlwind they're terrible and on belshir they're bad, etc)
also vs gas you should wall your natural asap just 30 lings (pretty popular thing on NA server) and you are dead check pool speed timing then add +110 seconds to your clock on the left and have a >full wall< on this timing vs extra-early gases you can even do not make first 2 hellions, just fast wall
3) Then you dont know any of z transitions muta ? roaches ? roaches drop? SH? fast hive? mass roach push? mass banes ? what ?
do 2nd fac -> armory+starport -> make hellbat drop -> make another hellbat drop while chasing your first hellions now you know lair timing, transition, his units (roaches = no muta, pure lings = maybe muta or bane push, etc etc), etc and you can prepare
4) bad build i have 3 tanks and 4 factories at 9:20 (that are ready to make thors OR tanks), and 5rd is placed on 9:30, also 2 medivacs and viking in production
5) late 3rd if z is passive 3rd with +2 gases should be on 10:30 MAX 11:30 mark
6) 4rd is ok but personally i have 150+/200 and starports for air switch at this timing you have 120 because of everything late
so ............. take a good build watch strelok! good luck
and it is not insult! im just saying that directly
On October 21 2013 06:26 Val_ wrote: only switch to air works, and works great, see strelok
personally im gm eu mech terran and i have problems vs SH only when i lost the midgame and i dont have good economy and creep is right under my base
without air it is almost impossible to deal with them, they are killing any ground pushes, you are just losing 10-15% of your army while dealing 0 damage each locust wave, then muta on your several thors (mass thors can do anything vs sh) -> dead
but with good to-air builds it is pretty OK
Did you watch the replay? He sat on 3 factories for 20 minutes, and had double techlab starports already running before hive was up.
He managed to push back a 24-host swarm forest and take a 5th with about 16 - 18 tanks.
Eventually, his opponent got bored and left by the 30 minute mark. He had more than a dozen fully-juiced ravens with 3/3 viking support by then.
I guess Zergs don't feel comfortable sauron'ing Terrans due to mines and hellbats being stupid, so they just spam hosts in the lategame and wait until the other guy leaves.
No i closed the replay on 14:30 mark because game is already lost, i saw "flash execution" in the post and made a suppose about "flash push" like vs losira excuse me
Such situation after that mark will never happen with a good build
On October 21 2013 06:39 Val_ wrote: ok now about replay
1) i dont like your opening you are playing blindly it sometimes can work but it is just bad in general and it is not insult!, im just saying that directly
2) you dont have any possibilites to scout anything
OK, you are placing 3rd CC with 2 tanks (smth like safe, but really not), and then ? what will u do? you even dont know does zerg have 3rd or not
play something like that: no gas cc -> +2 gas -> fac+reactor, lab on rax -> 4 hellions -> (first two scouts 3rd about 6:30 mark) -> THEN place 3rd!!! OR move tank to lab and prepare to push!
3) Then you dont know any of z transitions muta ? roaches ? roaches drop? SH? fast hive? mass roach push? mass banes ? what ?
do 2nd fac -> armory+starport -> make hellbat drop -> make another hellbat drop while chasing your first hellions now you know lair timing, transition, his units (roaches = no muta, pure lings = maybe muta or bane push, etc etc), etc and you can prepare
4) bad build i have 3 tanks and 4 factories at 9:20 (that are ready to make thors OR tanks), and 5rd is placed on 9:30
5) late 3rd if z is passive 3rd with +2 gases should be on 10:30 MAX 11:30 mark
6) 4rd is ok but personally i have 150+/200 and starports for air switch at this timing you have 120 because of everything late
so ............. take a good build watch strelok! good luck
Thanks, I really appreciate your comments.. I'm going to try to play a bit more active. I'm really trying to make 2 Armory build work, so that is why my production lacks. Do you think it is worth it? Anyways, thanks a lot.
edit: Also, how do you fight Hydra/Roach/Vipers with mech?
edit: Also, how do you fight Hydra/Roach/Vipers with mech?
ok question is pretty complicated
Direct answer 1) You should have at least: 6 vikings (not a lot more) + 3-4 ravens (4 is perfect, 0 is bad but ok) + hellbats + tanks Vikings can snipe vipers but they also can dont let them go away or spam more then 1 cloud (1st cloud = you just lost your hellbats, 2nd cloud = you are dead)
Also you should place your tanks the "chess" way (like 1 cloud touches only 1-2 tanks) It is pretty hard to do on some maps / pretty hard to do fast / but you should try to do it when it is possible
Also if you have thor+tank-based composition just dont fight under the cloud, just go back a bit and let roaches and hydra (but in general it is used vs ultras) move to this cloud (lol) while every unit in your army is able to shoot
im just dont care a lot about them because of my build/style (watch strelok) im making a perfect composition vs this+im passive and it is pretty easy to def it just dont work vs me
it is pretty old and contain a lot of mistakes (including opening) because i have been improved a lot since then (for example my previous post contain things that replay does not contain) but you can see vs vipers at 15+ min mark there
please do not try to copy it !!! i do not want to give you a wrong direction by this replay better watch strelok
Some lyrics about fundamentals 2)when im pushing i have 4 ravens + mass vikings (6+,depends of z composition) + mass banshees with cloak + tanks and a bit hellions
There is a problem with ground only armies vs vipers: Imagine You are on Belshir, you took 3 bases, you are playing ground-only and now you want to took 4rd or push
You move out -> zerg goes to your third by another way 1)You can go back... but you are doing timing push! 1a)You can lose your 3rd (on a terrible map like yeonsu) even before you are back 1b)Z can attack your army while your tanks are clumped, becahse you were moving ASAP to your 3rd 2)You can go to Z..and your attack now is an allin because you lost your 3rd
On October 21 2013 07:04 Val_ wrote: ok question is again pretty complicated
Direct answer 1) You should have at least: 6 vikings (not a lot more) + 3-4 ravens + hellbats + tanks Vikings can snipe vipers but they also can dont let them go away or spam more then 1 cloud (1st cloud = you just lost your hellions, 2nd cloud = you are dead)
Also you should place your tanks the "chess" way (like 1 cloud touches only 1-2 tanks) It is pretty hard to do on some maps / pretty hard to do fast / but you should try to do it when it is possible
Also if you have thor+tank-based composition just dont fight under the cloud, just go back a bit and let roaches and hydra (but in general it is used vs ultras) move to this cloud (lol) while every unit in your army is able to shoot
im just dont care a lot about them because of my build/style (watch strelok) im making a perfect composition vs this+im passive and it is pretty easy to def it just dont work vs me
it is pretty old and contain a lot of mistakes (including opening) because i have been improved a lot since then (for example my previous post contain things that replay does not contain) but you can see vs vipers at 15+ min mark there
please do not try to copy it !!! i do not want to give you a wrong direction by this replay better watch strelok
Some lyrics about fundamentals 2)when im pushing i have 4 ravens + mass vikings (6+,depends of z composition) + banshees with cloak + tanks and a bit hellions
There is a problem with ground only armies vs vipers: Imagine You are on Belshir, you took 3 bases, you are playing ground-only and now you want to took 4rd or push
You move out -> zerg goes to your third by another way 1)You can go back... but you are doing timing push! 1a)You can lose your 3rd (on a terrible map like yeonsu) even before you are back 1b)Z can attack your army while your tanks are clumped, becahse you were moving ASAP to your 3rd 2)You can go to Z..and your attack now is an allin because you lost your 3rd
Allright thanks again,
I believe Happy today played similarly to what you describe vs Nerchio. I've been watching that replay, but this style seems very demanding and I'm not sure I have APM and multitasking at GM level. So I'm used to play more Tank/Thor heavy compositions then Hellbat/Tank + drops, etc.. I might give it a shot, will see.
The real issue is I can't read Zergs properly and I have problems reading their tech timings and switches. So I ended up playing a bit more passively with faster upgrades and more bulky unit composition.
You are definitely right about moving out of Clouds, but beter players seem to abduct also when they see I'm not sieged. I guess I still need few Vikings/Ravens. Do you deploy few PDDs to buy time to siege? Would you actually siege before battle? I guess not?
I know Strelok is very good mech player, his mechanics and execution overall is adorable. :-)
With ground only armies, I'd actually have some Widow Mines with me, but I don't like to play pure ground.
Either get a bunch of ravens and vikings and push forward with tanks and pdds inbetween locust waves or transition to pure skyterran. The former works the best usually since bcs are garbage
having to play super ultra turtly shouldnt even be the way to make mech work Since those mega hard counters zerg has u cannont even roll out when u are maxed.. not to mention TvP... thats so unfortunate (
On October 22 2013 21:50 Phaenoman wrote: having to play super ultra turtly shouldnt even be the way to make mech work Since those mega hard counters zerg has u cannont even roll out when u are maxed.. not to mention TvP... thats so unfortunate (
As it stands right now, playing turtle mech is the most reliable way SOLELY because of the Swarm Host and the Viper. If anybody watched Strelok's stream this morning, there was an AWESOME TvZ on belshir where neither side made HOTS units, it was one of the best games I've seen so far as well, the zerg was very good and Strelok played brilliantly.
It's funny because wasn't the Swarm Host meant to avoid turtling when all it does is the very opposite for both players in every matchup.
The swarm host was supposed to break turtles, but Mech is forced to turtle because of the swarm host alone, mostly, at least until a very decent Raven count is established.
On October 22 2013 22:33 SC2Toastie wrote: The swarm host was supposed to break turtles, but Mech is forced to turtle because of the swarm host alone, mostly, at least until a very decent Raven count is established.
And if Zerg did not have SH then terran could turtle into super mech-air superball that would just roll over zerg as Z air is really bad versus viking/raven/BC. Part of the problem lies in bad desingn imo.
Bad maps play more of a role in 'easy turtling' for Mech. You need 4/5 bases to get said composition which on some maps is too easy to hold. On the other hand; the zone control of Mech is not that strong. Problem lies in the Siege Tank being a shitty unit. More powerful tanks would force SH repositioning and create a very positional mechanic and action shifting from front to front quickly
Thank you all guys for nice and matured discussion, I've been asking my Zerg opponents not to build Swarm Hosts, otherwise we will end up in 45 min game and I will win most likely and it is way better lol.. :D
On October 22 2013 23:18 SC2Toastie wrote: I don't find asking opponente not to use a certain tool is good for the game, but well, if it works for you.......:-)!
I'm testing new builds playing unranked currently facing master opponents, they are nice to me.. :-)
The swarm hosts causes u to play defencive u say? It's more like Swarm hosts is the route u tech when u play vs a turtling mech terran. U know how hard it is to beat a late game mech / skytoss army without SH / brood lords?? Also attacking into mech is very hard, mech is very good for defencive play. Yes u can do some roach / hydra / viper timings but that's kinda risky and most pro's don't want to take this risk when there is a better option which is to sit and camp himself with SH.
I think u can find some similarities with terran mech and turtle zerg. actually I would go as far as comparing brood lord / swarm host play with mech play. Bio / mine / medivac with muta / ling bane.
Mech and SH / Brood Lord play is both slow high power army which is good in straight up fights but both lacks the mobility of the other stylistic option.
On October 22 2013 23:19 llIH wrote: Do strelok play mech TvP too?
Very well, actually!
Mech vs Protoss works, but it's really hard to get a grasp on, because so much stuff can just kill you flat out. Among 'mechers' except Strelok I've recently seen Raven before Ghost. 3 Factory (2R1T) 2 Starport (2T) as the third gets established.
On October 22 2013 23:19 llIH wrote: Do strelok play mech TvP too?
Very well, actually!
Mech vs Protoss works, but it's really hard to get a grasp on, because so much stuff can just kill you flat out. Among 'mechers' except Strelok I've recently seen Raven before Ghost. 3 Factory (2R1T) 2 Starport (2T) as the third gets established.
On October 22 2013 23:19 llIH wrote: Do strelok play mech TvP too?
Very well, actually!
Mech vs Protoss works, but it's really hard to get a grasp on, because so much stuff can just kill you flat out. Among 'mechers' except Strelok I've recently seen Raven before Ghost. 3 Factory (2R1T) 2 Starport (2T) as the third gets established.
Awesome. Will look for his stream!
Check his Vods, I believe there are really good mech games right now. He is currently like rank 3 GM.
On October 22 2013 23:57 Siggeh wrote: The swarm hosts causes u to play defencive u say? It's more like Swarm hosts is the route u tech when u play vs a turtling mech terran. U know how hard it is to beat a late game mech / skytoss army without SH / brood lords?? Also attacking into mech is very hard, mech is very good for defencive play. Yes u can do some roach / hydra / viper timings but that's kinda risky and most pro's don't want to take this risk when there is a better option which is to sit and camp himself with SH.
Well in WoL there were some mech timings you could do. No there is nothing, because every aggresive move is shut down hardcore with Vipers and defensive play is shut down with Swarm Hosts. So you either need to turtle and slowly take base after base while accumulating Ravens, or allin with 2/3 base mech push (ala Flash). Since I don't like gimmicky "allin" strategies, I have no choice but turtle. I refuse to play bio, because I find it very stressful and harsh to my hands (I actually work as developer and I play drums in a band as my hobby so my hands take quite a beating every day).
On October 22 2013 23:57 Siggeh wrote: The swarm hosts causes u to play defencive u say? It's more like Swarm hosts is the route u tech when u play vs a turtling mech terran. U know how hard it is to beat a late game mech / skytoss army without SH / brood lords?? Also attacking into mech is very hard, mech is very good for defencive play. Yes u can do some roach / hydra / viper timings but that's kinda risky and most pro's don't want to take this risk when there is a better option which is to sit and camp himself with SH.
The entire idea of Siege Tanks is to be a powerful positional, defensive tool. They aren't that strong, but en masse, at least this they do. You shouldn't attack into mech, wait it out, pull it out of position, but being flabbergasted because you can't attack in there is weird.
On October 23 2013 00:00 Siggeh wrote: I think u can find some similarities with terran mech and turtle zerg. actually I would go as far as comparing brood lord / swarm host play with mech play. Bio / mine / medivac with muta / ling bane.
Mech and SH / Brood Lord play is both slow high power army which is good in straight up fights but both lacks the mobility of the other stylistic option.
They're not similar, courtesy of the production mechanics and Speed of the zerg supportive army.
EPT
excuse me 
Since those mega hard counters zerg has u cannont even roll out when u are maxed.. not to mention TvP... thats so unfortunate 
