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On July 20 2013 19:26 graNite wrote:
I always move out with 2 marauders and a marine and kill every unit the protoss sends to my base (except msc ofc). I think it is a really great opener.
After that, as you saw i only build marines and can defend stargates.
do you think a 2rax pressure with marines and 1-2 marauders would be enough to break the protoss? maybe force out an overcharge and then hit after its gone?
//edit: i just cant accept its not possible. i mean he is expanding and teching and the damn msc makes him too safe :/
Do reaper expand, your build will die to proxy oracle every time, gas first widow mine drop into expand is your best bet to bypass msc and do damage.
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Is fast siege tank pressure viable at all? I got a bunker up and did it vs a P once and it worked out well enough, but I'm not high enough league to know if he was countering it properly.
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On July 21 2013 03:31 Gono wrote:
Is fast siege tank pressure viable at all? I got a bunker up and did it vs a P once and it worked out well enough, but I'm not high enough league to know if he was countering it properly.
I wouldn't recommend that. As a Protoss I play damn greedy (3:45 Nexus, MSC after Nexus) and never had problems against 1 or 2 base tank pushes. Photon overcharge just gives the protoss enough time to get the units to stop tank pushes.
As Teoita said, the most standard pressure builds at the moment in TvP are widow mine drops and hellion runbys/drops. Also, proxy factory with fast widow mines is also strong, but pretty cheesy.
I don't know why every terran wants to punish an early nexus - this isn't WoL anymore. Just play greedier yourself and try to get a massive economical lead then.
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On July 21 2013 04:42 Bahajinbo wrote:
As Teoita said, the most standard pressure builds at the moment in TvP are widow mine drops and hellion runbys/drops. Also, proxy factory with fast widow mines is also strong, but pretty cheesy.
I don't know why every terran wants to punish an early nexus - this isn't WoL anymore. Just play greedier yourself and try to get a massive economical lead then.
Because I like to be an aggressive player. Everyone says widow mine drops, I'm wondering why hellbats arn't recomended over mines, are they too late or something?
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Italy12246 Posts
After the nerf yeah they hit really late.
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I guess if you want to try to be really aggressive against a protoss you could do the 1/1/1 that people used in TvT in WoL and sometimes in HoTS. Instead of getting a banshee or raven you hit a bit earlier and use a viking for vision. If the P is agressive with MsC (2 stalker MsC poke, shoot tanks with MsC, use time warps to defend) you can try to snipe the MsC and prevent PO. It is pretty risky and requires you to try to snipe the MsC which might not happen if the P just used PO instantly, but possible. You can land the viking(s) you have after to help with the dps. To be honest though, it sort of relies on a mistake from the P, but it does work on certain maps where positioning tanks is pretty easy versus a ground army but where the air space is tough for P to defend against vikings providing vision (Sky Island comes to mind).
If you want to be more aggressive without an all-in you can try 13 or 15 gas expos where you get fast mine drops. Essentially you get a 1/1/1 set-up on two base to drop. If you scout an all in you just get a fast tank unless it is a robo all in. I think fantasy has done some hellion marine shenanigans into a 3OC style if you don't like drops, but I'm not really sure how he does this and it left him pretty vulnerable ( he got crushed in the games I saw him do it against one of his teammates)
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The best thing you can do is to not get supply blocked or anything, macro well. Then make 2 medivacs, pump vikings, and when you have like 6 pull all scv and just all in the fool.
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It is possible to somewhat punish such a fast expand by toss, but it is incredibly difficult and should not be attempted unless you're grandmaster/pro level. You can basically try to snipe sentries, MSC, stalkers, but you will have to manually target each one and micro marines incredible well and have insane multitasking.
If you watch someone like Innovation's TvP, once he sees an early nexus by protoss, he will often send 8-12 marines, along with mine and medivac if you went 1/1/1/ instead of the normal 3 rax openings. With these units, you try to snipe the MSC/sentries/stalkers ie. any gas heavy units. Ideally you manually target the MSC with mine, and you micro marines individually against stalkers.
There is no way for Terran to kill a nexus early game, and even sniping probes is difficult since toss only needs to press one button to make nexus invincible.
ps. Dont' go marauder expand, it's a terrible build and doesn't make sense. If you make marauders you need to attack with them, if you expand you want to save your gas for teching instead of army.
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On July 21 2013 19:18 Lock0n wrote:
It is possible to somewhat punish such a fast expand by toss, but it is incredibly difficult and should not be attempted unless you're grandmaster/pro level. You can basically try to snipe sentries, MSC, stalkers, but you will have to manually target each one and micro marines incredible well and have insane multitasking.
If you watch someone like Innovation's TvP, once he sees an early nexus by protoss, he will often send 8-12 marines, along with mine and medivac if you went 1/1/1/ instead of the normal 3 rax openings. With these units, you try to snipe the MSC/sentries/stalkers ie. any gas heavy units. Ideally you manually target the MSC with mine, and you micro marines individually against stalkers.
[...]
I think that statement is a bit off.
the idea of sending in a bunch of marines as early as possible is actually a really good way to keep the protoss honest and as long as you can micro somewhat decently you'll be just fine:
you want to go in the natuaral with a bunch of marines and force an overcharge (if he doesn't, try snipe sentries and /or probes for free basically),
when the overcharge goes down, try to run up the ramp, which should lead to him forcefield the ramp. if he doesn't: snipe sentries and or probes in the main.
if he does forcefield the ramp, retreat and come back later with more marines to force another PO but be aware of his units, cause the second time when u come with about 16 marines he should have more units himself.
Those pokes are by no means game-enders, yet it forces the toss to spend sentry and msc energy and will also punish any toss that is out of position or trying to be uber-greedy.
This should lead up to a much better position once the medvacs are out since the P shouldn't have 2 POs available.
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After watching the replay, my thoughts are that the way to 'punish' this sort of play (1 gate FE into heavy teching) is by using the fact that they are forced to play passively until the 10-12 minute mark to your advantage. This means that if you opened with a reaper expand instead of a marauder expand you can then go straight into 3cc and double engineering bay. You should be able to pull together a force that can still deny the protoss's third for a decent amount of time and go into a very strong mid game.
Whilst it is possible that you could punish the build with something incredibly aggressive such as a gas first widow mine drop/reactored hellion expand, you would have to do it blindly and even then you are not guaranteed to be successful because of the mothership core. So whilst the protoss expansion is not 100% safe as stated by Teoita, there is no 'set' way to deny them.
Also - saying glhf and gg is never a bad thing!
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from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right )
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On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right )
that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc...
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On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc...
When would that hit? And how is that gonna work?
I have rines and a bunker. I feel immortal.
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On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right )
This is exactly what axlav did to me. He looked like a normal expand when I scouted I played normal than BAM 3 gate robo with 1 immortal raped me so fast....
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On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc...
I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea.
It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans.
Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base.
First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great.
If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread.
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On July 22 2013 23:24 WonnaPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc... I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea. It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans. Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base. First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great. If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread.
i am open to other builds, that is why i created this thread. i wanted to know what i can do, how i can open against a protoss who is that greedy.
and as you saw, the general consensus is that the msc makes the protoss so safe for such a long time that there is no way to punish greedy (tech- and upgradewise) play.
i dont think i got into masters because of my other matchups or because i have perfect macro and/or micro to keep up with my bo that is not "decent" in your opinion. of course, like every bo it has its weaknesses.
what i meant in the quoted part is the punishment of the first expanison. a protoss can just go robo/stargate/blink allin and i dont think it is that easy to defend if you expanded as t. but as a terran it is not possible to do that.
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On July 22 2013 21:54 thezanursic wrote:
Make 3 CCs and prey!
Prey on them Protoss like eagles on bunnies!
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I would begin to shift your punishment paradigm more towards indirectly grabbing advantages that will make midgame punishment easier. His build is not very high up on the spectrum of greed, but it is greedy enough that you are garunteed a bit of early watch tower control and subsequently free scout paths into his unit comp as it grows.. Be thankful that you are capable of hitting the early midgame at full speed; being in the light about your opponents actions will allow you to maintain the tempo required to get your third early and contain him with a 2 reactor 1 tech lab setup. I know theDwf doesn't exactly agree that this infrastructure is ideal vs fast colossus plays but the dps output(which far exceeds 2 tech 1 reac) is normally high enough to contain until even after our third is completing(being a debt factor instead of an economic boost at this point). However, protoss cannot easily micro colossus to poke back marines enough to get out of his base. Even if he were able to move the terran army back, he cannot commit past a certain point because of the drop threat/chance that you go 5 rax instead of expanding/chance that he makes a tiny micro error and you shave off 300 minerals of zealots for nothing, hes probably just going to sac some econ at the end of the day. The more common HT play is less fortunate for him than even fast colossus because of your high marine count and his lack of storm at the time of your third going down.
TLDR, play for the faster third when you see these structures, not the kill.
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First of all, as a player who used to be beat GM protoss` with my marauder expo, I can say for sure, that marauder expo does not work in HoTs, and if your opponent is paying attention, he can just walk his msc over and start picking off scvs xD.
So here`s a build I recommend
10 depot
12 rax (constanly making marines)
16 orbital command
16 depot
when @400 minerals expand on the low ground
when @300 minerals make 2
~22 make 2 refineries
when you're third rax finishes make a tech lab, if you sense he's being super greedy or doing a stargae based all-in get combat shields first
get reactors on the 2 other rax
then when you have 100 gas get a factory and an engineering bay
start +1 weapons, and get a reactor on your factory and go for starport
This build is like the oldest standard Terran build, but if you adapt it properly you can put some pressure on.
What is most important, is that you scan at about 6:30, and check and see what you're opponent is doing. If they're being super greedy, then do as some of the other have said, and push out across the map with all your marines, your goal with this is to force out a PO and then pick off sentries, this will make your drops more effective, and when your medivacs arrive at 10:30, you might even be able to just push up the ramp and win. Sometimes I've scanned at 6:30 and seen protoss going for double forge into robo bay, this is a very scary build for Terran, because if you dont do any pressure they're going to have super early colossi, and you're going to have to try to do something with drops. That's why you need to do poking at 7 minutes if you can.
If you scan at 6:30, and don't think you'll be able to get any poke done, and they aren't all-ining you, stop everything and throw down a third CC
Some other advantages to this build is that its very easy to execute and doesn't require high apm.
As far as ingame advantages, you are getting an engineering bay for upgrades which is good, but also its available for defending oracles. you get a large number of marines to be able to attack at 10:30, which is a typical weak point for protoss, especially if they've invested heavily into tech.
Lemme know if something I said doesn't make sense or you have questions xD. ended up being large post
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EPT
