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aloha!
http://drop.sc/349777
the protoss opens with 1 gate nexus. he cancels the zealot when he sees i didnt block with an ebay and has absolutely no units except the msc. he then goes for a forge, a robo and two more gates.
i open with a marauder expand and just cant pressure him because of the msc.because of the early upgrade and lack of units for such a long time i thought i can apply a lot of pressure but i cant find a way.
please only look at the opening, the rest of the replay is uninteresting because he laggs out at the end.
thanks 
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On July 20 2013 19:07 graNite wrote:aloha! http://drop.sc/349777the protoss opens with 1 gate nexus. he cancels the zealot when he sees i didnt block with an ebay and has absolutely no units except the msc. he then goes for a forge, a robo and two more gates. i open with a marauder expand and just cant pressure him because of the msc.because of the early upgrade and lack of units for such a long time i thought i can apply a lot of pressure but i cant find a way. please only look at the opening, the rest of the replay is uninteresting because he laggs out at the end. thanks
You can't. At best you can make him produce some stalks with a Reaper opening, but having 3 tech buildings with 4 units isn't even "greed" anymore in early game PvT HotS. You should change your opening by the way, Marauder expand is of no use in HotS and you will end up behind for nothing in all games (+ issues against proxy Stargates).
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I always move out with 2 marauders and a marine and kill every unit the protoss sends to my base (except msc ofc). I think it is a really great opener.
After that, as you saw i only build marines and can defend stargates.
do you think a 2rax pressure with marines and 1-2 marauders would be enough to break the protoss? maybe force out an overcharge and then hit after its gone?
//edit: i just cant accept its not possible. i mean he is expanding and teching and the damn msc makes him too safe :/
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On July 20 2013 19:26 graNite wrote:
do you think a 2rax pressure with marines and 1-2 marauders would be enough to break the protoss? maybe force out an overcharge and then hit after its gone?
//edit: i just cant accept its not possible. i mean he is expanding and teching and the damn msc makes him too safe :/
Welcome to HotS TvP. 2 rax is dead as well; sure you can force a PO, but then what? After PO is over, your window is gone since meanwhile he can chrono an Immortal and produce units.
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Watching the replay I can't really say that he was greedy. HOTS TvP is pretty ridiculous atm, I would say that to call a Protoss greedy he would have to go two nexus before gateway into one gate, core, double forge straight into twilight. This would be an opening which you upon scouting can punish and pick apart.
One blind all-in that can work vs a greedy toss would be going one base 3 rax stim with medivacs, pull scvs, flip a lot of coins and hope the toss does not scout, it can work even in high masters :/
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Wow I didnt think would get these responses... Really sad that P gets the expansion for free nowadays 
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The best thing is, if you want to go greedy yourself, protoss has a myriad of super powerful allins to kill you that are pretty hard to scout, being on 1 base or two.
Still, the best way to deal with what you describe is either to take a fast 3rd CC or power up a bit to deny his 3rd I guess.
I like a lot the 4m30 ebay build, into +1 push then 1/1 + vacs/stim push into 3rd. You can put quite a lot of pressure and force PO to make your 10mn push potentially deadly, plus the early ebay is useful to defend DTs or oracles. You can also go into factory first rather than double rax, if your need mines or want to do an early drop.
Anyway, marauder expand seems pretty pointless, as as you said he just has to wait for his msc to deny your pressure, and he shouldn't loose his units if he scouts. I'm pretty sure it would die to proxy stargates too, as it's already hard to have the marine numbers to defend it with 1 rax expand iirc. So you might as well spend your gas elsewhere or do a greedier opening :p
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Speaking as a protoss I can safely say that a 2 rax or a 1 marine 2 marauder push is by far the least threatening attack in tvp and so I would advise as the same as the others, change your opening to something like a reaper expand. Also I would recommend doing an engi block as it costs us 100 minerals and you barely 20 and delays our expo, plus with a reaper that zealot is worthless. You then get your expand safely and can cause economic damage instead.
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On July 20 2013 21:19 Kracen wrote:
Speaking as a protoss I can safely say that a 2 rax or a 1 marine 2 marauder push is by far the least threatening attack in tvp and so I would advise as the same as the others, change your opening to something like a reaper expand. Also I would recommend doing an engi block as it costs us 100 minerals and you barely 20 and delays our expo, plus with a reaper that zealot is worthless. You then get your expand safely and can cause economic damage instead.
Have to count the lost mining time for the scv used in the eng block though.
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In Hots the agressive options have decreased even more for terran. What you basically need to do right now kis to pressure him while expanding fast and then try to contain him on 2 bases for as long as possible. The only aggressive build which comes into my mind is a reactor expand into 1-1-1 widow mine drop, which can do some damage or at least contain him long enough to get your 3rd and upgrades faster. Otherwise the 1 rax fe is still good, but instead a lot of people just go for CC first, since they can´t threat a protoss anyways with a 1 rax fe.
In general getting a marauder after your tech lab and move out on the map can make is a good move, which might lead some protoss players to invest more in defense. What you should be focus on is to to reduce his map vision, which means killing forward pylons and observers whenever possible. This way he don´t have much information and might make wrong calls.
The way how I play TvP currently is to really just contain him with medivacs and take the control of the whole map, while waiting for my ghost tech and try to hit a good engagement at his 3rd or when he takes a 4th.
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On July 20 2013 21:48 Sianos wrote:
In Hots the agressive options have decreased even more for terran. What you basically need to do right now kis to pressure him while expanding fast and then try to contain him on 2 bases for as long as possible. The only aggressive build which comes into my mind is a reactor expand into 1-1-1 widow mine drop, which can do some damage or at least contain him long enough to get your 3rd and upgrades faster. Otherwise the 1 rax fe is still good, but instead a lot of people just go for CC first, since they can´t threat a protoss anyways with a 1 rax fe.
In general getting a marauder after your tech lab and move out on the map can make is a good move, which might lead some protoss players to invest more in defense. What you should be focus on is to to reduce his map vision, which means killing forward pylons and observers whenever possible. This way he don´t have much information and might make wrong calls.
The way how I play TvP currently is to really just contain him with medivacs and take the control of the whole map, while waiting for my ghost tech and try to hit a good engagement at his 3rd or when he takes a 4th.
Thank you for your response, I usually start dropping when i get my first medivacs, I will try to delay his additional bases more now.
CC first triggers too many allins in my opinion, that is the problem. Protoss can still go allin and kill me while he has nothing to worry about :'(
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I recently saw a stream in which the player did an aggressive opening that I felt was really good. The build went something like:
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Proxy factory @100 gas, near the other guy's natural
Reactor on barracks after 2 marines
CC @ 400 minerals
Widow mine production, rally widow mines to opponent's main. Only stop widow mine production once he has detection out.
Basically it's the same BO as an old-school reactor hellion expo, except you make marines and mines.
I feel like this is really good because:
1) It forces detection, and punishes any play that skips units. That means you can at least delay shenanigans like MSC+Blink all-ins, DT Rush and any kind of warpgate all-in.
2) You still have a decently-timed expansion which isn't too late.
3) You can potentially delay any late expansions after heavy tech with a burrowed widow mine. If he goes nexus first, you can still delay mining for quite a while.
4) Reactored barracks cranking out marines at home should still leave you with enough to hold any kind of early pressure.
Hope this helps, don't be too harsh on me though, I'm only high diamond/low masters.
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well, despite your bad marauder opening and your missing "gl hf" at start you werent behind after your expanded.
you had 28 workers and double mule, he had 31.
the problem was that you didnt produce workers constantly and were supply blocked for a long time, so some minutes later it was 42 workers against 30.
its not the matchup, just train your mechanics.
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On July 20 2013 21:55 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 21:48 Sianos wrote:
In Hots the agressive options have decreased even more for terran. What you basically need to do right now kis to pressure him while expanding fast and then try to contain him on 2 bases for as long as possible. The only aggressive build which comes into my mind is a reactor expand into 1-1-1 widow mine drop, which can do some damage or at least contain him long enough to get your 3rd and upgrades faster. Otherwise the 1 rax fe is still good, but instead a lot of people just go for CC first, since they can´t threat a protoss anyways with a 1 rax fe.
In general getting a marauder after your tech lab and move out on the map can make is a good move, which might lead some protoss players to invest more in defense. What you should be focus on is to to reduce his map vision, which means killing forward pylons and observers whenever possible. This way he don´t have much information and might make wrong calls.
The way how I play TvP currently is to really just contain him with medivacs and take the control of the whole map, while waiting for my ghost tech and try to hit a good engagement at his 3rd or when he takes a 4th. Thank you for your response, I usually start dropping when i get my first medivacs, I will try to delay his additional bases more now. CC first triggers too many allins in my opinion, that is the problem. Protoss can still go allin and kill me while he has nothing to worry about :'(
Well that´s the intention of going cc first. You are doing an extreme play, which forces a reaction from your opponent or he´ll play from behind. He has to either be more greedy or he has to do a lot of damage. A CC first even gives you a better economy to stop 1 base play. The only difficulties come from early game harass like proxy gateways or chronoboosted zealot/stalker aggression. But it´s possible to defend them with only a few losses, which makes CC first a good build to force some early wins if you don´t want to go into the late game. You have to scout the allins and react properbly as you would do with a 1 rax fe, so there isn´t much of a difference.
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On July 20 2013 22:58 cari-kira wrote:
well, despite your bad marauder opening and your missing "gl hf" at start you werent behind after your expanded.
you had 28 workers and double mule, he had 31.
the problem was that you didnt produce workers constantly and were supply blocked for a long time, so some minutes later it was 42 workers against 30.
its not the matchup, just train your mechanics.
did you read my first post?
i want to know how to solve the opening problem. i am by no means a gm player, i have my strengths and weaknesses. i am just annoyed by how the protoss is 100% safe :/
and missing "glhf", really? everyone can decide for themselves wether they talk in a game or not.
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Speaking from a P perspective, it isn't a greedy build what the P is doing. Honestly, bio is not what scares me as a P when I go for my default 1-gate FE build. It's widow mines, hellbats, banshees. People who go straight bio I can handle with no issue. We get the MSC out first because we pretty much know that Photon Overcharge will block most early aggression.
Widow mine/hellion/hellbat drops and banshee force me to make cannons in my mineral line and be vigilant with my observers and scouting. You also have the option for going for an all-in yourself, to which you have quite a lot.
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Problem is if you go 3rd CC, your upgrades are delayed and he might have 2-2 before you have 1-1 T_T
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Depending on the map you can open 1 rax expand into 1/1/1 pressure, after 2 tanks are done make sure you get out a medivac and then make a 2nd and 3rd barracks and swap the tech lab off the factory and start stim. While photon overcharge outranges tanks, you can actually find sweet spots where you can shoot their mineral mining probes and your tanks can't be hit. Besides this however there's very few ways to punish Protoss, opening into cloakshees might be okay but a lot of protosses are going a cannon each in mineral line or opening faster robo for the observer. Widow mines can be okay but get shut down for the above reason.
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Italy12246 Posts
Just saying, the Protoss doesnt get "the expansion for free" because of the msc. 1gate Fe played by a competent player was already safe vs everything in WoL.
That said, as dwf posted you cant really "punish" 1gate fe into robo/forge thanks to the mothership core. On the other hand, it's a very passive opener so as soon as you scout it (which you should if you reaper expand) you can just play greedier yourself, skipping bunkers and whatnot.
Also, the Protoss isnt necessarily safe vs everything, no matter what. WIdow mine drops with or without a hellion runby in the nat is still a scary build for example (if a little gimmicky).
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Hello, i don't think that's a greedy opening by the protoss. I think you'll just have to accept that the way that the matchup is played these days is different. Do you remember when marauders came with concussive shells and 2-rax was used in TvP every game? That seemed unfair at the very beginning also.
He is not able to abuse you unless you make some mistakes, and you are not able to abuse him unless he makes mistakes also.
Does this make the game more slow, stable and generally stale? not necessarily. It accelerates the game more quickly into the midgame if you let go of your options earlier in the game (aggressive rax openings are not one of them anymore)--and the midgame is where i'd argue that your options as terran increase greatly even when compared to a protoss. What are his basic options for transitioning at that point? twilight + twilight research/archives tech, robo + bay. These are his options, except for the fact that you usually control the pace of the game at 10:00.
Honestly, aim for the later-game if you know you can handle it, or aim for the midgame if you want to test their multitasking to the brink. If not, aim for the early game by forcing them to defend with multiple observers, or simply by holding an all-in.
If you want a general opening that will work in all games, it is to open economic with scouting, and there is always an e-bay block that you mentioned. It encourages strong play overall, rather than relying on 1-base timing attacks that were so frequent in the beta days. Honestly, protoss struggle against reaper cheese also as long as your control is good.
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On July 20 2013 19:26 graNite wrote:
I always move out with 2 marauders and a marine and kill every unit the protoss sends to my base (except msc ofc). I think it is a really great opener.
After that, as you saw i only build marines and can defend stargates.
do you think a 2rax pressure with marines and 1-2 marauders would be enough to break the protoss? maybe force out an overcharge and then hit after its gone?
//edit: i just cant accept its not possible. i mean he is expanding and teching and the damn msc makes him too safe :/
Do reaper expand, your build will die to proxy oracle every time, gas first widow mine drop into expand is your best bet to bypass msc and do damage.
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Is fast siege tank pressure viable at all? I got a bunker up and did it vs a P once and it worked out well enough, but I'm not high enough league to know if he was countering it properly.
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On July 21 2013 03:31 Gono wrote:
Is fast siege tank pressure viable at all? I got a bunker up and did it vs a P once and it worked out well enough, but I'm not high enough league to know if he was countering it properly.
I wouldn't recommend that. As a Protoss I play damn greedy (3:45 Nexus, MSC after Nexus) and never had problems against 1 or 2 base tank pushes. Photon overcharge just gives the protoss enough time to get the units to stop tank pushes.
As Teoita said, the most standard pressure builds at the moment in TvP are widow mine drops and hellion runbys/drops. Also, proxy factory with fast widow mines is also strong, but pretty cheesy.
I don't know why every terran wants to punish an early nexus - this isn't WoL anymore. Just play greedier yourself and try to get a massive economical lead then.
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On July 21 2013 04:42 Bahajinbo wrote:
As Teoita said, the most standard pressure builds at the moment in TvP are widow mine drops and hellion runbys/drops. Also, proxy factory with fast widow mines is also strong, but pretty cheesy.
I don't know why every terran wants to punish an early nexus - this isn't WoL anymore. Just play greedier yourself and try to get a massive economical lead then.
Because I like to be an aggressive player. Everyone says widow mine drops, I'm wondering why hellbats arn't recomended over mines, are they too late or something?
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Italy12246 Posts
After the nerf yeah they hit really late.
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I guess if you want to try to be really aggressive against a protoss you could do the 1/1/1 that people used in TvT in WoL and sometimes in HoTS. Instead of getting a banshee or raven you hit a bit earlier and use a viking for vision. If the P is agressive with MsC (2 stalker MsC poke, shoot tanks with MsC, use time warps to defend) you can try to snipe the MsC and prevent PO. It is pretty risky and requires you to try to snipe the MsC which might not happen if the P just used PO instantly, but possible. You can land the viking(s) you have after to help with the dps. To be honest though, it sort of relies on a mistake from the P, but it does work on certain maps where positioning tanks is pretty easy versus a ground army but where the air space is tough for P to defend against vikings providing vision (Sky Island comes to mind).
If you want to be more aggressive without an all-in you can try 13 or 15 gas expos where you get fast mine drops. Essentially you get a 1/1/1 set-up on two base to drop. If you scout an all in you just get a fast tank unless it is a robo all in. I think fantasy has done some hellion marine shenanigans into a 3OC style if you don't like drops, but I'm not really sure how he does this and it left him pretty vulnerable ( he got crushed in the games I saw him do it against one of his teammates)
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The best thing you can do is to not get supply blocked or anything, macro well. Then make 2 medivacs, pump vikings, and when you have like 6 pull all scv and just all in the fool.
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It is possible to somewhat punish such a fast expand by toss, but it is incredibly difficult and should not be attempted unless you're grandmaster/pro level. You can basically try to snipe sentries, MSC, stalkers, but you will have to manually target each one and micro marines incredible well and have insane multitasking.
If you watch someone like Innovation's TvP, once he sees an early nexus by protoss, he will often send 8-12 marines, along with mine and medivac if you went 1/1/1/ instead of the normal 3 rax openings. With these units, you try to snipe the MSC/sentries/stalkers ie. any gas heavy units. Ideally you manually target the MSC with mine, and you micro marines individually against stalkers.
There is no way for Terran to kill a nexus early game, and even sniping probes is difficult since toss only needs to press one button to make nexus invincible.
ps. Dont' go marauder expand, it's a terrible build and doesn't make sense. If you make marauders you need to attack with them, if you expand you want to save your gas for teching instead of army.
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On July 21 2013 19:18 Lock0n wrote:
It is possible to somewhat punish such a fast expand by toss, but it is incredibly difficult and should not be attempted unless you're grandmaster/pro level. You can basically try to snipe sentries, MSC, stalkers, but you will have to manually target each one and micro marines incredible well and have insane multitasking.
If you watch someone like Innovation's TvP, once he sees an early nexus by protoss, he will often send 8-12 marines, along with mine and medivac if you went 1/1/1/ instead of the normal 3 rax openings. With these units, you try to snipe the MSC/sentries/stalkers ie. any gas heavy units. Ideally you manually target the MSC with mine, and you micro marines individually against stalkers.
[...]
I think that statement is a bit off.
the idea of sending in a bunch of marines as early as possible is actually a really good way to keep the protoss honest and as long as you can micro somewhat decently you'll be just fine:
you want to go in the natuaral with a bunch of marines and force an overcharge (if he doesn't, try snipe sentries and /or probes for free basically),
when the overcharge goes down, try to run up the ramp, which should lead to him forcefield the ramp. if he doesn't: snipe sentries and or probes in the main.
if he does forcefield the ramp, retreat and come back later with more marines to force another PO but be aware of his units, cause the second time when u come with about 16 marines he should have more units himself.
Those pokes are by no means game-enders, yet it forces the toss to spend sentry and msc energy and will also punish any toss that is out of position or trying to be uber-greedy.
This should lead up to a much better position once the medvacs are out since the P shouldn't have 2 POs available.
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After watching the replay, my thoughts are that the way to 'punish' this sort of play (1 gate FE into heavy teching) is by using the fact that they are forced to play passively until the 10-12 minute mark to your advantage. This means that if you opened with a reaper expand instead of a marauder expand you can then go straight into 3cc and double engineering bay. You should be able to pull together a force that can still deny the protoss's third for a decent amount of time and go into a very strong mid game.
Whilst it is possible that you could punish the build with something incredibly aggressive such as a gas first widow mine drop/reactored hellion expand, you would have to do it blindly and even then you are not guaranteed to be successful because of the mothership core. So whilst the protoss expansion is not 100% safe as stated by Teoita, there is no 'set' way to deny them.
Also - saying glhf and gg is never a bad thing!
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from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right )
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On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right )
that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc...
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On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc...
When would that hit? And how is that gonna work?
I have rines and a bunker. I feel immortal.
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On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right )
This is exactly what axlav did to me. He looked like a normal expand when I scouted I played normal than BAM 3 gate robo with 1 immortal raped me so fast....
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On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc...
I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea.
It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans.
Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base.
First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great.
If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread.
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On July 22 2013 23:24 WonnaPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc... I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea. It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans. Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base. First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great. If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread.
i am open to other builds, that is why i created this thread. i wanted to know what i can do, how i can open against a protoss who is that greedy.
and as you saw, the general consensus is that the msc makes the protoss so safe for such a long time that there is no way to punish greedy (tech- and upgradewise) play.
i dont think i got into masters because of my other matchups or because i have perfect macro and/or micro to keep up with my bo that is not "decent" in your opinion. of course, like every bo it has its weaknesses.
what i meant in the quoted part is the punishment of the first expanison. a protoss can just go robo/stargate/blink allin and i dont think it is that easy to defend if you expanded as t. but as a terran it is not possible to do that.
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On July 22 2013 21:54 thezanursic wrote:
Make 3 CCs and prey!
Prey on them Protoss like eagles on bunnies!
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I would begin to shift your punishment paradigm more towards indirectly grabbing advantages that will make midgame punishment easier. His build is not very high up on the spectrum of greed, but it is greedy enough that you are garunteed a bit of early watch tower control and subsequently free scout paths into his unit comp as it grows.. Be thankful that you are capable of hitting the early midgame at full speed; being in the light about your opponents actions will allow you to maintain the tempo required to get your third early and contain him with a 2 reactor 1 tech lab setup. I know theDwf doesn't exactly agree that this infrastructure is ideal vs fast colossus plays but the dps output(which far exceeds 2 tech 1 reac) is normally high enough to contain until even after our third is completing(being a debt factor instead of an economic boost at this point). However, protoss cannot easily micro colossus to poke back marines enough to get out of his base. Even if he were able to move the terran army back, he cannot commit past a certain point because of the drop threat/chance that you go 5 rax instead of expanding/chance that he makes a tiny micro error and you shave off 300 minerals of zealots for nothing, hes probably just going to sac some econ at the end of the day. The more common HT play is less fortunate for him than even fast colossus because of your high marine count and his lack of storm at the time of your third going down.
TLDR, play for the faster third when you see these structures, not the kill.
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First of all, as a player who used to be beat GM protoss` with my marauder expo, I can say for sure, that marauder expo does not work in HoTs, and if your opponent is paying attention, he can just walk his msc over and start picking off scvs xD.
So here`s a build I recommend
10 depot
12 rax (constanly making marines)
16 orbital command
16 depot
when @400 minerals expand on the low ground
when @300 minerals make 2
~22 make 2 refineries
when you're third rax finishes make a tech lab, if you sense he's being super greedy or doing a stargae based all-in get combat shields first
get reactors on the 2 other rax
then when you have 100 gas get a factory and an engineering bay
start +1 weapons, and get a reactor on your factory and go for starport
This build is like the oldest standard Terran build, but if you adapt it properly you can put some pressure on.
What is most important, is that you scan at about 6:30, and check and see what you're opponent is doing. If they're being super greedy, then do as some of the other have said, and push out across the map with all your marines, your goal with this is to force out a PO and then pick off sentries, this will make your drops more effective, and when your medivacs arrive at 10:30, you might even be able to just push up the ramp and win. Sometimes I've scanned at 6:30 and seen protoss going for double forge into robo bay, this is a very scary build for Terran, because if you dont do any pressure they're going to have super early colossi, and you're going to have to try to do something with drops. That's why you need to do poking at 7 minutes if you can.
If you scan at 6:30, and don't think you'll be able to get any poke done, and they aren't all-ining you, stop everything and throw down a third CC
Some other advantages to this build is that its very easy to execute and doesn't require high apm.
As far as ingame advantages, you are getting an engineering bay for upgrades which is good, but also its available for defending oracles. you get a large number of marines to be able to attack at 10:30, which is a typical weak point for protoss, especially if they've invested heavily into tech.
Lemme know if something I said doesn't make sense or you have questions xD. ended up being large post
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On July 23 2013 01:15 Tuffy wrote:
First of all, as a player who used to be beat GM protoss` with my marauder expo, I can say for sure, that marauder expo does not work in HoTs, and if your opponent is paying attention, he can just walk his msc over and start picking off scvs xD.
I dont know how you exactly play the marauder expand, but do it this way:
when the barracks is done: marine, tech lab, marauder+cs, marauder
ill the push with these three units and i can kill every protoss unit that is on the map with some kiting.
after that, ill only build marines until i have medivacs (after expo, additional barracks etc)
i only get into trouble if they rush to the msc and send them over, but then i have 3 units in their base and can kill pylons while i get marines out.
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On July 23 2013 00:08 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 23:24 WonnaPlay wrote:On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc... I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea. It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans. Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base. First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great. If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread. i am open to other builds, that is why i created this thread. i wanted to know what i can do, how i can open against a protoss who is that greedy. and as you saw, the general consensus is that the msc makes the protoss so safe for such a long time that there is no way to punish greedy (tech- and upgradewise) play. i dont think i got into masters because of my other matchups or because i have perfect macro and/or micro to keep up with my bo that is not "decent" in your opinion. of course, like every bo it has its weaknesses.
what i meant in the quoted part is the punishment of the first expanison. a protoss can just go robo/stargate/blink allin and i dont think it is that easy to defend if you expanded as t. but as a terran it is not possible to do that.
Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy.
I understand that you think you can kill any unit on the map with 2 marauders and a marine, however your build as you described it (bar --> marine --> techlab+cs --> marauder, marauder) will 100% asways die to certain early aggressions.
It is impossible to hold proxy Oracle for example.
I think in general you lose to certain aggressive builds because of your opener. Because you focus so heavy on early gas into marauders and cs, your expand itself will be later, your factory will be later, your starport will be later.
Instead of focussing on punishing greedy protoss at the 7 minute mark, you should aim for the 10 minute mark.
You will notice once you change your focus, you will get alot more wins like this.
Killing the first few units on the map doesn't matter much, since alot of P builds do not even sent out units anymore.
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On July 23 2013 19:06 WonnaPlay wrote:
Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy.
Which ones?
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On July 23 2013 19:06 WonnaPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 00:08 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 23:24 WonnaPlay wrote:On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc... I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea. It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans. Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base. First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great. If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread. i am open to other builds, that is why i created this thread. i wanted to know what i can do, how i can open against a protoss who is that greedy. and as you saw, the general consensus is that the msc makes the protoss so safe for such a long time that there is no way to punish greedy (tech- and upgradewise) play. i dont think i got into masters because of my other matchups or because i have perfect macro and/or micro to keep up with my bo that is not "decent" in your opinion. of course, like every bo it has its weaknesses.
what i meant in the quoted part is the punishment of the first expanison. a protoss can just go robo/stargate/blink allin and i dont think it is that easy to defend if you expanded as t. but as a terran it is not possible to do that. Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy. I understand that you think you can kill any unit on the map with 2 marauders and a marine, however your build as you described it (bar --> marine --> techlab+cs --> marauder, marauder) will 100% asways die to certain early aggressions. It is impossible to hold proxy Oracle for example. I think in general you lose to certain aggressive builds because of your opener. Because you focus so heavy on early gas into marauders and cs, your expand itself will be later, your factory will be later, your starport will be later. Instead of focussing on punishing greedy protoss at the 7 minute mark, you should aim for the 10 minute mark. You will notice once you change your focus, you will get alot more wins like this. Killing the first few units on the map doesn't matter much, since alot of P builds do not even sent out units anymore.
I would like to know the 10-11 minutes builds as well. I have 2 medivacs ready (from a starport with a reactor) at 10 minutes with my build. I dont die to proxy oracle because if i dont see their tech and no expo aftrer scouting 2 gas i get an ebay.
I never said it is a problem that I lose games because of my opener. The marauders dont cost much gas (125 for techlab, 2 marauders and cs).
Did you watch the replay? If I aim for a push at the 10-11 minute mark only to punish what he did, i give him way to much time to get an advantage of that early tech and upgrade.
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I use a widow mine/hellion drop/driveby stuff with delayed CC (transition into normal bio, but they lose like 15+ probes most of the time, so it's no problem anymore), it's pretty gimmicky but a lot of fun and gets me a positive winrate in masters, whereas normal FE had me at like 10% winrate because it feels impossible to do anything as they calmly get deathballs for free.
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The style you're describing isn't necessarily greedy. It's super safe against almost anything, perhaps the only exception would be a blind 2 rax in the hopes the protoss skips both his zealot and stalker to get a faster robo. Protoss can safely get an earlier robo these days, but getting detection asap is a must nowadays. Considering that the fastest robo after nothing but a nexus + msc can be started at 4:40, and that a gas first build for proxy widow mines means 2 widow mines can be dropped at your mineral line before 6:00, even a 4:40 robo isn't fast enough forces protoss to buy time. If we're talking about a single widow mine, you can have one out as early as 4:40 iirc, which is pretty damn early. So, in a way, this style isn't "greedy"... it's actually one of the safest ones out there.
I think one of the most annoying things you can do is ebay block the protoss as early as possible and harass him with a reaper. Kill his probe and keep on kiting his zealot to slow him down as much as possible. If he is not careful enough and blindly cancels his zealot, it will suck for him. Either way, he will need to add a third pylon, change his build, and delay his nexus for quite a bit (like a whole minute) if you started your ebay block early enough.
By the way, have you tried that style where you get a super early ebay for a fast +1atk? Where you only get 2 barracks, but very early medivacs (I think you can hit the protoss at 9:30 or something, which can outright kill him if he gets a delayed colossus, hasn't warped in enough units, and his extra gates aren't up yet) and 1-1 ups by 11:00? It's very strong.
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Ebay block usually just means he builds the robo even quicker since protoss like the 2 assimilator 4 miners style. Good or bad? You decide!
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IMO with MSC theres very little you can do early game to punish a fast nexus, unless its nexus first then a reaper can do good damage.
Any 2-3 rax builds will see the protoss add another 2 gateways and hold with a little bit of micro and wind up a long way ahead.
If you're not comfortable macro'ing with multi-pronged harass to disrupt his macro through a longer game and want to finish the game earlier, the previously mentioned 10-11min timings with MMM + large SCV pulls are very powerful, hitting just before the protoss takes his 3rd usually with 1 collosus but no range and having a single medivac doing widow mine drops if you scout early immortals (because he'll have probably skimped on observers) otherwise hellions or marines depending on his composition.
Banshee openers are a bit more common now but i dont think they have the same punch/cost effectiveness and utility of factory based harass.
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On July 23 2013 21:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 19:14 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 19:06 WonnaPlay wrote:
Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy. Which ones? Mvp vs. SaSe from WCS Europe last season. That'll do the trick against a Protoss who is too tech heavy on two bases.
Irrelevant since Protoss can scout your Tanks and reactively not go Colossi + HTs on 2 bases; plus it would have to be done blindly before you know what Protoss is doing (Mvp didn't have this problem because he knew how SaSe plays PvT).
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I think we can summarize the thread now:
- Protoss is safe on 2 bases-
- If you want to play standard macro, the way to go is delaying his third with bio while getting a third.
- The own opening doesnt really matter as long as you can scout and identify what he is teching to because is going to be passive for a long time.
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On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mvp's build wasn't intended to be a killing blow, it only turned out that way because SaSe was trying to do absolutely everything on two bases. Against a more standard Protoss opening, I'm pretty confident that Mvp's build would still contain the Protoss and thus significantly delay the timing of the Protoss player's third base. In fact, I've had exactly that happen to me quite a few times; I've even lost a couple of times because I impatiently a-moved into the Tank line when I should waited for another Colossus or another round of units.
Mvp's build was a 2-bases bio/Tanks all-in, against a more standard Protoss opening correctly defending your Marine/Mine pressure and reacting to your Tank production you get completely rolled by his Zealots/Archons/Immortals charge when you first try to set up your contain.
On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand
On July 23 2013 21:21 Sated wrote:
If you open with a MSC expand then, even if you constantly make units from the Gateway, the units you'll have by the time Terran attacks are a Stalker and 2/3 Sentries. The scenario that gets me the most is when 4 Hellions are dropped into my main and 8 Marines run into my natural. Your units have to help defend the main because Photon Overcharge won't kill the Hellions quickly enough. Forcefields will have to be used by the Sentries, making them less useful vs. future aggression. This also makes it harder for you to scout with Hallucinations. Furthermore, pulling your units into the main leaves the natural undefended against Marines, which will force you to pull Probes. Ultimately, you're going to lose some Probes at the natural unless you're psychic, and you're going to lose some Probes in the main because 3 Hellions one-shot workers. Any additional damage dealt by forcing Probes to be pulled etc. is just a bonus for the Terran (and you probably will have to pull Probes vs. the Hellions). The amount of disruption caused will make any timing hit by the Terran in the near future very strong.
You should build Stalkers and not Sentries to deal with that kind of attack, this is most likely your problem. There is no Terran timing afterwards before Medivacs come. I don't know if you're talking about Marines/Hellions before or after expand but both can be defended fine with the few units you have when it comes.
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On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand
As someone already pointed out, you should have more than one Stalker. The Nexus cannon is good against slow-moving units, as it gets many more shots out before those units become an actual danger. So it is strong against marines (and marauders to some extend). Your ground units should cover the other possible attacking options for Terran, especially medivacs/hellions, so you should build more Stalkers.
What I am curious about is how good banshee openings (or double starports) fare in the current metagame (with cloak, preferebly, as Nexus cannon + Stalkers will just smash them otherwise). Do they hit too late that the early expand from Protoss already propelled them ahead enough? Why is hardly anyone doing them anymore? Are hellbats and widow mines just too shiny to not build?
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On July 25 2013 23:28 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand As someone already pointed out, you should have more than one Stalker. The Nexus cannon is good against slow-moving units, as it gets many more shots out before those units become an actual danger. So it is strong against marines (and marauders to some extend). Your ground units should cover the other possible attacking options for Terran, especially medivacs/hellions, so you should build more Stalkers. What I am curious about is how good banshee openings (or double starports) fare in the current metagame (with cloak, preferebly, as Nexus cannon + Stalkers will just smash them otherwise). Do they hit too late that the early expand from Protoss already propelled them ahead enough? Why is hardly anyone doing them anymore? Are hellbats and widow mines just too shiny to not build?
Banshees builds just seem to be worse than mine builds. Protoss pretty much gets detection every time anyway because it's very safe to go robo and colossi are still really good so banshee's usually just don't end up doing anything. Mines are much easier to mix in your build, are not as risky to tech too (teching to banshee often means you die if they do some gateway timing) and do quite well against no detection either. Sure mines don't do as much damage as banshee's in the absence of detection but overall do better for less cost.
PvT strategically is a total bore at the moment imo. MsC takes away almost any full on early terran aggression, basically there is just the 2-3 rax proxy that's it. Protoss has some all-ins as always which is fine i guess. For the most part it's just both expoing, T harassing with MMM and P defending. It's boring to watch because strategically the differences in PvT are very small compared to other matchups.
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On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:[...]I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand
What kind of opening do you go for? Right after you start your nexus, you can tweak things to be safer. If you open with double gas, you can go sentry --> robo --> stalker --> sentry before wg is finished (sentry before robo delays robo for about 20 seconds). At 6:30, you warp in 2 more stalkers. That's enough for a body block at your ramp, photon overcharge, and possibly 2-3 more units depending on how many gateways you have and when your opponent strikes (if it's not gas first, he probably won't be dropping before 7:00, which means you can reactively warp in 2 more stalkers if need be). I don't even see how you could need 3 gateways considering the fact that you will have at least 3 stalkers for base defense.
If you opened with a single geyser, you probably won't get a sentry before your robo, but you can still go robo --> stalker --> sentry. Then you warp in 2 more stalkers, and at 7:00ish, you can add 1-2 extra sentries depending on your priorities.
If you manage to pull probes away from his stuff without losing too many of them, you should be fine imo. After all, builds like the one you mentioned have to do some damage beacause the terran is sacrificing other things to make this work. Instead of thinking about what he has during this sort of aggression, think about what he probably will not have later because of it.
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On July 26 2013 00:04 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 22:44 TheDwf wrote:On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mvp's build wasn't intended to be a killing blow, it only turned out that way because SaSe was trying to do absolutely everything on two bases. Against a more standard Protoss opening, I'm pretty confident that Mvp's build would still contain the Protoss and thus significantly delay the timing of the Protoss player's third base. In fact, I've had exactly that happen to me quite a few times; I've even lost a couple of times because I impatiently a-moved into the Tank line when I should waited for another Colossus or another round of units. Mvp's build was a 2-bases bio/Tanks all-in, against a more standard Protoss opening correctly defending your Marine/Mine pressure and reacting to your Tank production you get completely rolled by his Zealots/Archons/Immortals charge when you first try to set up your contain. On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand On July 23 2013 21:21 Sated wrote:
If you open with a MSC expand then, even if you constantly make units from the Gateway, the units you'll have by the time Terran attacks are a Stalker and 2/3 Sentries. The scenario that gets me the most is when 4 Hellions are dropped into my main and 8 Marines run into my natural. Your units have to help defend the main because Photon Overcharge won't kill the Hellions quickly enough. Forcefields will have to be used by the Sentries, making them less useful vs. future aggression. This also makes it harder for you to scout with Hallucinations. Furthermore, pulling your units into the main leaves the natural undefended against Marines, which will force you to pull Probes. Ultimately, you're going to lose some Probes at the natural unless you're psychic, and you're going to lose some Probes in the main because 3 Hellions one-shot workers. Any additional damage dealt by forcing Probes to be pulled etc. is just a bonus for the Terran (and you probably will have to pull Probes vs. the Hellions). The amount of disruption caused will make any timing hit by the Terran in the near future very strong. You should build Stalkers and not Sentries to deal with that kind of attack, this is most likely your problem. There is no Terran timing afterwards before Medivacs come. I don't know if you're talking about Marines/Hellions before or after expand but both can be defended fine with the few units you have when it comes. Then I'm mistakingly memorising Mvp's build as something that it wasn't. In any case, I've had people do more macro oriented Tank openings against me and they still contain pretty well. They're definitely better than MMM-type contains because those contains can be shut down by good Forcefields and a single Colossus, which isn't true of a Tank-based contain. Of course, you have to commit more into a Tank-based contain, but I think that it can be worth it... and there is always the chance of catching a Protoss off-guard and doing more damage than you intend. Saying that a flood of Chargelots/Archons/Immortals will be waiting for you is erroneous. If the Protoss doesn't get Sentries early on (which you advise against doing), they won't get to scout your base until after they've chosen to build a Colossus Den. Which is it? Get Sentries for scouting so you don't get contained by Tanks, or get Stalkers so you don't die to Hellions? EDIT: Of course, I am very biased because my PvT has an awful win-rate at the moment, so I hate seeing Terrans whine about it. If Terrans are so universally sure that TvP is awful, why can't I stomp everyone? /sadzealot
You can't play Tank contain into a normal third (in his games against SaSe, Mvp built its third at like 13' or 14+' and it was mostly here for the decoration, he had already won before), it just doesn't work; you need to invest everything in the contain to get a strong grip. In macro play Tanks are only used to defend certain all-ins when opening fast expand into 1-1-1.
I didn't say you shouldn't get Sentries, I said you shouldn't have only one stalk when the Marine/Hellion attack hits [edit: reread what I wrote, sorry I worded it poorly]. But what are your Terran opponents doing, 1-1-1 before or after expand? Both variants exist, and obviously you'll have less units against the first one.
Assuming a standard 5'20 robo, you can send your first obs while leaving the second one to defend at home against a possible Mine drop. The first obs you sent will see the first Tanks. Even if you choose the Colossus path, you're not bound to be hopelessly contained, when he moves out you can move out yourself to meet him on the map (slightly ahead of your natural) and slow down his progress by forcing Siege, then you can poke with ranged Colossi to kill SCVs building bunks, etc.
Maybe post a replay if you have one of this kind of loss so we avoid incomprehension issues.
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^ This is true. It's pretty unusual not to see tanks coming. I think any tank push can be stopped by skipping forges to get gates earlier, slowing down the terran across the map, and maybe using photon overcharge. Immortals are also pretty handy imo. At least that's what I do when I see a tank push, maybe it's not impossible to squeeze in a single forge and/or a twilight in the process... but like TheDwf said, you can't do a tank push and macro behind it like you would with a regular medivac timing.
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It difficult to punish a natural expansion, but usually they will be out in the open to defend a third and drops + main army aggression can pull them apart.
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On July 21 2013 02:10 Teoita wrote:
Just saying, the Protoss doesnt get "the expansion for free" because of the msc. 1gate Fe played by a competent player was already safe vs everything in WoL.
In WOL you could still kill a few probes and sentries with a poke of pure marines, just microing them and avoding being scouted by the protoss.
Now the protoss is totally safe from everything terran can throw at him...and this allows protoss to blow gas previously spent on sentries on totally retarded build orders like 1 stalker/msc straight into dt drop..or double forge into 3-3 zealot at 13 minutes.
As if tvp late game wasnt already "asymmetrical balanced" blizz gave free defense for ppl who keep 6 stalkers in hold near the edge of the base and call it multitasking.
Terran imba.
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EPT
