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aloha!
http://drop.sc/349777
the protoss opens with 1 gate nexus. he cancels the zealot when he sees i didnt block with an ebay and has absolutely no units except the msc. he then goes for a forge, a robo and two more gates.
i open with a marauder expand and just cant pressure him because of the msc.because of the early upgrade and lack of units for such a long time i thought i can apply a lot of pressure but i cant find a way.
please only look at the opening, the rest of the replay is uninteresting because he laggs out at the end.
thanks 
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On July 20 2013 19:07 graNite wrote:aloha! http://drop.sc/349777the protoss opens with 1 gate nexus. he cancels the zealot when he sees i didnt block with an ebay and has absolutely no units except the msc. he then goes for a forge, a robo and two more gates. i open with a marauder expand and just cant pressure him because of the msc.because of the early upgrade and lack of units for such a long time i thought i can apply a lot of pressure but i cant find a way. please only look at the opening, the rest of the replay is uninteresting because he laggs out at the end. thanks
You can't. At best you can make him produce some stalks with a Reaper opening, but having 3 tech buildings with 4 units isn't even "greed" anymore in early game PvT HotS. You should change your opening by the way, Marauder expand is of no use in HotS and you will end up behind for nothing in all games (+ issues against proxy Stargates).
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I always move out with 2 marauders and a marine and kill every unit the protoss sends to my base (except msc ofc). I think it is a really great opener.
After that, as you saw i only build marines and can defend stargates.
do you think a 2rax pressure with marines and 1-2 marauders would be enough to break the protoss? maybe force out an overcharge and then hit after its gone?
//edit: i just cant accept its not possible. i mean he is expanding and teching and the damn msc makes him too safe :/
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On July 20 2013 19:26 graNite wrote:
do you think a 2rax pressure with marines and 1-2 marauders would be enough to break the protoss? maybe force out an overcharge and then hit after its gone?
//edit: i just cant accept its not possible. i mean he is expanding and teching and the damn msc makes him too safe :/
Welcome to HotS TvP. 2 rax is dead as well; sure you can force a PO, but then what? After PO is over, your window is gone since meanwhile he can chrono an Immortal and produce units.
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Watching the replay I can't really say that he was greedy. HOTS TvP is pretty ridiculous atm, I would say that to call a Protoss greedy he would have to go two nexus before gateway into one gate, core, double forge straight into twilight. This would be an opening which you upon scouting can punish and pick apart.
One blind all-in that can work vs a greedy toss would be going one base 3 rax stim with medivacs, pull scvs, flip a lot of coins and hope the toss does not scout, it can work even in high masters :/
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Wow I didnt think would get these responses... Really sad that P gets the expansion for free nowadays 
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The best thing is, if you want to go greedy yourself, protoss has a myriad of super powerful allins to kill you that are pretty hard to scout, being on 1 base or two.
Still, the best way to deal with what you describe is either to take a fast 3rd CC or power up a bit to deny his 3rd I guess.
I like a lot the 4m30 ebay build, into +1 push then 1/1 + vacs/stim push into 3rd. You can put quite a lot of pressure and force PO to make your 10mn push potentially deadly, plus the early ebay is useful to defend DTs or oracles. You can also go into factory first rather than double rax, if your need mines or want to do an early drop.
Anyway, marauder expand seems pretty pointless, as as you said he just has to wait for his msc to deny your pressure, and he shouldn't loose his units if he scouts. I'm pretty sure it would die to proxy stargates too, as it's already hard to have the marine numbers to defend it with 1 rax expand iirc. So you might as well spend your gas elsewhere or do a greedier opening :p
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Speaking as a protoss I can safely say that a 2 rax or a 1 marine 2 marauder push is by far the least threatening attack in tvp and so I would advise as the same as the others, change your opening to something like a reaper expand. Also I would recommend doing an engi block as it costs us 100 minerals and you barely 20 and delays our expo, plus with a reaper that zealot is worthless. You then get your expand safely and can cause economic damage instead.
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On July 20 2013 21:19 Kracen wrote:
Speaking as a protoss I can safely say that a 2 rax or a 1 marine 2 marauder push is by far the least threatening attack in tvp and so I would advise as the same as the others, change your opening to something like a reaper expand. Also I would recommend doing an engi block as it costs us 100 minerals and you barely 20 and delays our expo, plus with a reaper that zealot is worthless. You then get your expand safely and can cause economic damage instead.
Have to count the lost mining time for the scv used in the eng block though.
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In Hots the agressive options have decreased even more for terran. What you basically need to do right now kis to pressure him while expanding fast and then try to contain him on 2 bases for as long as possible. The only aggressive build which comes into my mind is a reactor expand into 1-1-1 widow mine drop, which can do some damage or at least contain him long enough to get your 3rd and upgrades faster. Otherwise the 1 rax fe is still good, but instead a lot of people just go for CC first, since they can´t threat a protoss anyways with a 1 rax fe.
In general getting a marauder after your tech lab and move out on the map can make is a good move, which might lead some protoss players to invest more in defense. What you should be focus on is to to reduce his map vision, which means killing forward pylons and observers whenever possible. This way he don´t have much information and might make wrong calls.
The way how I play TvP currently is to really just contain him with medivacs and take the control of the whole map, while waiting for my ghost tech and try to hit a good engagement at his 3rd or when he takes a 4th.
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On July 20 2013 21:48 Sianos wrote:
In Hots the agressive options have decreased even more for terran. What you basically need to do right now kis to pressure him while expanding fast and then try to contain him on 2 bases for as long as possible. The only aggressive build which comes into my mind is a reactor expand into 1-1-1 widow mine drop, which can do some damage or at least contain him long enough to get your 3rd and upgrades faster. Otherwise the 1 rax fe is still good, but instead a lot of people just go for CC first, since they can´t threat a protoss anyways with a 1 rax fe.
In general getting a marauder after your tech lab and move out on the map can make is a good move, which might lead some protoss players to invest more in defense. What you should be focus on is to to reduce his map vision, which means killing forward pylons and observers whenever possible. This way he don´t have much information and might make wrong calls.
The way how I play TvP currently is to really just contain him with medivacs and take the control of the whole map, while waiting for my ghost tech and try to hit a good engagement at his 3rd or when he takes a 4th.
Thank you for your response, I usually start dropping when i get my first medivacs, I will try to delay his additional bases more now.
CC first triggers too many allins in my opinion, that is the problem. Protoss can still go allin and kill me while he has nothing to worry about :'(
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I recently saw a stream in which the player did an aggressive opening that I felt was really good. The build went something like:
12 rax
13 gas
15 OC
Proxy factory @100 gas, near the other guy's natural
Reactor on barracks after 2 marines
CC @ 400 minerals
Widow mine production, rally widow mines to opponent's main. Only stop widow mine production once he has detection out.
Basically it's the same BO as an old-school reactor hellion expo, except you make marines and mines.
I feel like this is really good because:
1) It forces detection, and punishes any play that skips units. That means you can at least delay shenanigans like MSC+Blink all-ins, DT Rush and any kind of warpgate all-in.
2) You still have a decently-timed expansion which isn't too late.
3) You can potentially delay any late expansions after heavy tech with a burrowed widow mine. If he goes nexus first, you can still delay mining for quite a while.
4) Reactored barracks cranking out marines at home should still leave you with enough to hold any kind of early pressure.
Hope this helps, don't be too harsh on me though, I'm only high diamond/low masters.
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well, despite your bad marauder opening and your missing "gl hf" at start you werent behind after your expanded.
you had 28 workers and double mule, he had 31.
the problem was that you didnt produce workers constantly and were supply blocked for a long time, so some minutes later it was 42 workers against 30.
its not the matchup, just train your mechanics.
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On July 20 2013 21:55 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2013 21:48 Sianos wrote:
In Hots the agressive options have decreased even more for terran. What you basically need to do right now kis to pressure him while expanding fast and then try to contain him on 2 bases for as long as possible. The only aggressive build which comes into my mind is a reactor expand into 1-1-1 widow mine drop, which can do some damage or at least contain him long enough to get your 3rd and upgrades faster. Otherwise the 1 rax fe is still good, but instead a lot of people just go for CC first, since they can´t threat a protoss anyways with a 1 rax fe.
In general getting a marauder after your tech lab and move out on the map can make is a good move, which might lead some protoss players to invest more in defense. What you should be focus on is to to reduce his map vision, which means killing forward pylons and observers whenever possible. This way he don´t have much information and might make wrong calls.
The way how I play TvP currently is to really just contain him with medivacs and take the control of the whole map, while waiting for my ghost tech and try to hit a good engagement at his 3rd or when he takes a 4th. Thank you for your response, I usually start dropping when i get my first medivacs, I will try to delay his additional bases more now. CC first triggers too many allins in my opinion, that is the problem. Protoss can still go allin and kill me while he has nothing to worry about :'(
Well that´s the intention of going cc first. You are doing an extreme play, which forces a reaction from your opponent or he´ll play from behind. He has to either be more greedy or he has to do a lot of damage. A CC first even gives you a better economy to stop 1 base play. The only difficulties come from early game harass like proxy gateways or chronoboosted zealot/stalker aggression. But it´s possible to defend them with only a few losses, which makes CC first a good build to force some early wins if you don´t want to go into the late game. You have to scout the allins and react properbly as you would do with a 1 rax fe, so there isn´t much of a difference.
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On July 20 2013 22:58 cari-kira wrote:
well, despite your bad marauder opening and your missing "gl hf" at start you werent behind after your expanded.
you had 28 workers and double mule, he had 31.
the problem was that you didnt produce workers constantly and were supply blocked for a long time, so some minutes later it was 42 workers against 30.
its not the matchup, just train your mechanics.
did you read my first post?
i want to know how to solve the opening problem. i am by no means a gm player, i have my strengths and weaknesses. i am just annoyed by how the protoss is 100% safe :/
and missing "glhf", really? everyone can decide for themselves wether they talk in a game or not.
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Speaking from a P perspective, it isn't a greedy build what the P is doing. Honestly, bio is not what scares me as a P when I go for my default 1-gate FE build. It's widow mines, hellbats, banshees. People who go straight bio I can handle with no issue. We get the MSC out first because we pretty much know that Photon Overcharge will block most early aggression.
Widow mine/hellion/hellbat drops and banshee force me to make cannons in my mineral line and be vigilant with my observers and scouting. You also have the option for going for an all-in yourself, to which you have quite a lot.
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Problem is if you go 3rd CC, your upgrades are delayed and he might have 2-2 before you have 1-1 T_T
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Depending on the map you can open 1 rax expand into 1/1/1 pressure, after 2 tanks are done make sure you get out a medivac and then make a 2nd and 3rd barracks and swap the tech lab off the factory and start stim. While photon overcharge outranges tanks, you can actually find sweet spots where you can shoot their mineral mining probes and your tanks can't be hit. Besides this however there's very few ways to punish Protoss, opening into cloakshees might be okay but a lot of protosses are going a cannon each in mineral line or opening faster robo for the observer. Widow mines can be okay but get shut down for the above reason.
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Italy12246 Posts
Just saying, the Protoss doesnt get "the expansion for free" because of the msc. 1gate Fe played by a competent player was already safe vs everything in WoL.
That said, as dwf posted you cant really "punish" 1gate fe into robo/forge thanks to the mothership core. On the other hand, it's a very passive opener so as soon as you scout it (which you should if you reaper expand) you can just play greedier yourself, skipping bunkers and whatnot.
Also, the Protoss isnt necessarily safe vs everything, no matter what. WIdow mine drops with or without a hellion runby in the nat is still a scary build for example (if a little gimmicky).
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Hello, i don't think that's a greedy opening by the protoss. I think you'll just have to accept that the way that the matchup is played these days is different. Do you remember when marauders came with concussive shells and 2-rax was used in TvP every game? That seemed unfair at the very beginning also.
He is not able to abuse you unless you make some mistakes, and you are not able to abuse him unless he makes mistakes also.
Does this make the game more slow, stable and generally stale? not necessarily. It accelerates the game more quickly into the midgame if you let go of your options earlier in the game (aggressive rax openings are not one of them anymore)--and the midgame is where i'd argue that your options as terran increase greatly even when compared to a protoss. What are his basic options for transitioning at that point? twilight + twilight research/archives tech, robo + bay. These are his options, except for the fact that you usually control the pace of the game at 10:00.
Honestly, aim for the later-game if you know you can handle it, or aim for the midgame if you want to test their multitasking to the brink. If not, aim for the early game by forcing them to defend with multiple observers, or simply by holding an all-in.
If you want a general opening that will work in all games, it is to open economic with scouting, and there is always an e-bay block that you mentioned. It encourages strong play overall, rather than relying on 1-base timing attacks that were so frequent in the beta days. Honestly, protoss struggle against reaper cheese also as long as your control is good.
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EPT
