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On July 23 2013 01:15 Tuffy wrote:
First of all, as a player who used to be beat GM protoss` with my marauder expo, I can say for sure, that marauder expo does not work in HoTs, and if your opponent is paying attention, he can just walk his msc over and start picking off scvs xD.
I dont know how you exactly play the marauder expand, but do it this way:
when the barracks is done: marine, tech lab, marauder+cs, marauder
ill the push with these three units and i can kill every protoss unit that is on the map with some kiting.
after that, ill only build marines until i have medivacs (after expo, additional barracks etc)
i only get into trouble if they rush to the msc and send them over, but then i have 3 units in their base and can kill pylons while i get marines out.
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On July 23 2013 00:08 graNite wrote:Show nested quote +On July 22 2013 23:24 WonnaPlay wrote:On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc... I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea. It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans. Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base. First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great. If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread. i am open to other builds, that is why i created this thread. i wanted to know what i can do, how i can open against a protoss who is that greedy. and as you saw, the general consensus is that the msc makes the protoss so safe for such a long time that there is no way to punish greedy (tech- and upgradewise) play. i dont think i got into masters because of my other matchups or because i have perfect macro and/or micro to keep up with my bo that is not "decent" in your opinion. of course, like every bo it has its weaknesses.
what i meant in the quoted part is the punishment of the first expanison. a protoss can just go robo/stargate/blink allin and i dont think it is that easy to defend if you expanded as t. but as a terran it is not possible to do that.
Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy.
I understand that you think you can kill any unit on the map with 2 marauders and a marine, however your build as you described it (bar --> marine --> techlab+cs --> marauder, marauder) will 100% asways die to certain early aggressions.
It is impossible to hold proxy Oracle for example.
I think in general you lose to certain aggressive builds because of your opener. Because you focus so heavy on early gas into marauders and cs, your expand itself will be later, your factory will be later, your starport will be later.
Instead of focussing on punishing greedy protoss at the 7 minute mark, you should aim for the 10 minute mark.
You will notice once you change your focus, you will get alot more wins like this.
Killing the first few units on the map doesn't matter much, since alot of P builds do not even sent out units anymore.
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On July 23 2013 19:06 WonnaPlay wrote:
Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy.
Which ones?
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On July 23 2013 19:06 WonnaPlay wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 00:08 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 23:24 WonnaPlay wrote:On July 22 2013 18:30 graNite wrote:On July 22 2013 18:21 unknown soldier wrote:
from a low toss point CC first is not a real good opener if he goes for 1 gate fe as he can simply drop the idea of FE and add two gates and go kill your units and it is game over (this is what i do maybe those terrains dont do it right ) that is the problem. and it does not work the other way round beause of the msc... I feel that you are too much stuck in your head with the Protoss not punishable idea. It is actually extremely hard to punish greedy terrans. Alot of the times Terrans have their 3rd CC running (in their base) long before a P even thinks about taking a 3rd base. First focus on getting a decent, instead of throwing ideas out of the window, because you keep saying your marauder opener is great. If you truly would open your mind up to other build orders, you would not be so defensive here in this thread. i am open to other builds, that is why i created this thread. i wanted to know what i can do, how i can open against a protoss who is that greedy. and as you saw, the general consensus is that the msc makes the protoss so safe for such a long time that there is no way to punish greedy (tech- and upgradewise) play. i dont think i got into masters because of my other matchups or because i have perfect macro and/or micro to keep up with my bo that is not "decent" in your opinion. of course, like every bo it has its weaknesses.
what i meant in the quoted part is the punishment of the first expanison. a protoss can just go robo/stargate/blink allin and i dont think it is that easy to defend if you expanded as t. but as a terran it is not possible to do that. Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy. I understand that you think you can kill any unit on the map with 2 marauders and a marine, however your build as you described it (bar --> marine --> techlab+cs --> marauder, marauder) will 100% asways die to certain early aggressions. It is impossible to hold proxy Oracle for example. I think in general you lose to certain aggressive builds because of your opener. Because you focus so heavy on early gas into marauders and cs, your expand itself will be later, your factory will be later, your starport will be later. Instead of focussing on punishing greedy protoss at the 7 minute mark, you should aim for the 10 minute mark. You will notice once you change your focus, you will get alot more wins like this. Killing the first few units on the map doesn't matter much, since alot of P builds do not even sent out units anymore.
I would like to know the 10-11 minutes builds as well. I have 2 medivacs ready (from a starport with a reactor) at 10 minutes with my build. I dont die to proxy oracle because if i dont see their tech and no expo aftrer scouting 2 gas i get an ebay.
I never said it is a problem that I lose games because of my opener. The marauders dont cost much gas (125 for techlab, 2 marauders and cs).
Did you watch the replay? If I aim for a push at the 10-11 minute mark only to punish what he did, i give him way to much time to get an advantage of that early tech and upgrade.
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I use a widow mine/hellion drop/driveby stuff with delayed CC (transition into normal bio, but they lose like 15+ probes most of the time, so it's no problem anymore), it's pretty gimmicky but a lot of fun and gets me a positive winrate in masters, whereas normal FE had me at like 10% winrate because it feels impossible to do anything as they calmly get deathballs for free.
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The style you're describing isn't necessarily greedy. It's super safe against almost anything, perhaps the only exception would be a blind 2 rax in the hopes the protoss skips both his zealot and stalker to get a faster robo. Protoss can safely get an earlier robo these days, but getting detection asap is a must nowadays. Considering that the fastest robo after nothing but a nexus + msc can be started at 4:40, and that a gas first build for proxy widow mines means 2 widow mines can be dropped at your mineral line before 6:00, even a 4:40 robo isn't fast enough forces protoss to buy time. If we're talking about a single widow mine, you can have one out as early as 4:40 iirc, which is pretty damn early. So, in a way, this style isn't "greedy"... it's actually one of the safest ones out there.
I think one of the most annoying things you can do is ebay block the protoss as early as possible and harass him with a reaper. Kill his probe and keep on kiting his zealot to slow him down as much as possible. If he is not careful enough and blindly cancels his zealot, it will suck for him. Either way, he will need to add a third pylon, change his build, and delay his nexus for quite a bit (like a whole minute) if you started your ebay block early enough.
By the way, have you tried that style where you get a super early ebay for a fast +1atk? Where you only get 2 barracks, but very early medivacs (I think you can hit the protoss at 9:30 or something, which can outright kill him if he gets a delayed colossus, hasn't warped in enough units, and his extra gates aren't up yet) and 1-1 ups by 11:00? It's very strong.
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Ebay block usually just means he builds the robo even quicker since protoss like the 2 assimilator 4 miners style. Good or bad? You decide!
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IMO with MSC theres very little you can do early game to punish a fast nexus, unless its nexus first then a reaper can do good damage.
Any 2-3 rax builds will see the protoss add another 2 gateways and hold with a little bit of micro and wind up a long way ahead.
If you're not comfortable macro'ing with multi-pronged harass to disrupt his macro through a longer game and want to finish the game earlier, the previously mentioned 10-11min timings with MMM + large SCV pulls are very powerful, hitting just before the protoss takes his 3rd usually with 1 collosus but no range and having a single medivac doing widow mine drops if you scout early immortals (because he'll have probably skimped on observers) otherwise hellions or marines depending on his composition.
Banshee openers are a bit more common now but i dont think they have the same punch/cost effectiveness and utility of factory based harass.
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On July 23 2013 21:12 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2013 19:14 TheDwf wrote:On July 23 2013 19:06 WonnaPlay wrote:
Actually there are extremely powerfull 10-11 minutes pushes right now that can easily cripple Protoss players that go too tech heavy. Which ones? Mvp vs. SaSe from WCS Europe last season. That'll do the trick against a Protoss who is too tech heavy on two bases.
Irrelevant since Protoss can scout your Tanks and reactively not go Colossi + HTs on 2 bases; plus it would have to be done blindly before you know what Protoss is doing (Mvp didn't have this problem because he knew how SaSe plays PvT).
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I think we can summarize the thread now:
- Protoss is safe on 2 bases-
- If you want to play standard macro, the way to go is delaying his third with bio while getting a third.
- The own opening doesnt really matter as long as you can scout and identify what he is teching to because is going to be passive for a long time.
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On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mvp's build wasn't intended to be a killing blow, it only turned out that way because SaSe was trying to do absolutely everything on two bases. Against a more standard Protoss opening, I'm pretty confident that Mvp's build would still contain the Protoss and thus significantly delay the timing of the Protoss player's third base. In fact, I've had exactly that happen to me quite a few times; I've even lost a couple of times because I impatiently a-moved into the Tank line when I should waited for another Colossus or another round of units.
Mvp's build was a 2-bases bio/Tanks all-in, against a more standard Protoss opening correctly defending your Marine/Mine pressure and reacting to your Tank production you get completely rolled by his Zealots/Archons/Immortals charge when you first try to set up your contain.
On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand 
On July 23 2013 21:21 Sated wrote:
If you open with a MSC expand then, even if you constantly make units from the Gateway, the units you'll have by the time Terran attacks are a Stalker and 2/3 Sentries. The scenario that gets me the most is when 4 Hellions are dropped into my main and 8 Marines run into my natural. Your units have to help defend the main because Photon Overcharge won't kill the Hellions quickly enough. Forcefields will have to be used by the Sentries, making them less useful vs. future aggression. This also makes it harder for you to scout with Hallucinations. Furthermore, pulling your units into the main leaves the natural undefended against Marines, which will force you to pull Probes. Ultimately, you're going to lose some Probes at the natural unless you're psychic, and you're going to lose some Probes in the main because 3 Hellions one-shot workers. Any additional damage dealt by forcing Probes to be pulled etc. is just a bonus for the Terran (and you probably will have to pull Probes vs. the Hellions). The amount of disruption caused will make any timing hit by the Terran in the near future very strong.
You should build Stalkers and not Sentries to deal with that kind of attack, this is most likely your problem. There is no Terran timing afterwards before Medivacs come. I don't know if you're talking about Marines/Hellions before or after expand but both can be defended fine with the few units you have when it comes.
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On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand
As someone already pointed out, you should have more than one Stalker. The Nexus cannon is good against slow-moving units, as it gets many more shots out before those units become an actual danger. So it is strong against marines (and marauders to some extend). Your ground units should cover the other possible attacking options for Terran, especially medivacs/hellions, so you should build more Stalkers.
What I am curious about is how good banshee openings (or double starports) fare in the current metagame (with cloak, preferebly, as Nexus cannon + Stalkers will just smash them otherwise). Do they hit too late that the early expand from Protoss already propelled them ahead enough? Why is hardly anyone doing them anymore? Are hellbats and widow mines just too shiny to not build?
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On July 25 2013 23:28 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand As someone already pointed out, you should have more than one Stalker. The Nexus cannon is good against slow-moving units, as it gets many more shots out before those units become an actual danger. So it is strong against marines (and marauders to some extend). Your ground units should cover the other possible attacking options for Terran, especially medivacs/hellions, so you should build more Stalkers. What I am curious about is how good banshee openings (or double starports) fare in the current metagame (with cloak, preferebly, as Nexus cannon + Stalkers will just smash them otherwise). Do they hit too late that the early expand from Protoss already propelled them ahead enough? Why is hardly anyone doing them anymore? Are hellbats and widow mines just too shiny to not build?
Banshees builds just seem to be worse than mine builds. Protoss pretty much gets detection every time anyway because it's very safe to go robo and colossi are still really good so banshee's usually just don't end up doing anything. Mines are much easier to mix in your build, are not as risky to tech too (teching to banshee often means you die if they do some gateway timing) and do quite well against no detection either. Sure mines don't do as much damage as banshee's in the absence of detection but overall do better for less cost.
PvT strategically is a total bore at the moment imo. MsC takes away almost any full on early terran aggression, basically there is just the 2-3 rax proxy that's it. Protoss has some all-ins as always which is fine i guess. For the most part it's just both expoing, T harassing with MMM and P defending. It's boring to watch because strategically the differences in PvT are very small compared to other matchups.
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On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:[...]I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand
What kind of opening do you go for? Right after you start your nexus, you can tweak things to be safer. If you open with double gas, you can go sentry --> robo --> stalker --> sentry before wg is finished (sentry before robo delays robo for about 20 seconds). At 6:30, you warp in 2 more stalkers. That's enough for a body block at your ramp, photon overcharge, and possibly 2-3 more units depending on how many gateways you have and when your opponent strikes (if it's not gas first, he probably won't be dropping before 7:00, which means you can reactively warp in 2 more stalkers if need be). I don't even see how you could need 3 gateways considering the fact that you will have at least 3 stalkers for base defense.
If you opened with a single geyser, you probably won't get a sentry before your robo, but you can still go robo --> stalker --> sentry. Then you warp in 2 more stalkers, and at 7:00ish, you can add 1-2 extra sentries depending on your priorities.
If you manage to pull probes away from his stuff without losing too many of them, you should be fine imo. After all, builds like the one you mentioned have to do some damage beacause the terran is sacrificing other things to make this work. Instead of thinking about what he has during this sort of aggression, think about what he probably will not have later because of it.
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On July 26 2013 00:04 Sated wrote:Show nested quote +On July 25 2013 22:44 TheDwf wrote:On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:
I'm pretty sure Mvp's build wasn't intended to be a killing blow, it only turned out that way because SaSe was trying to do absolutely everything on two bases. Against a more standard Protoss opening, I'm pretty confident that Mvp's build would still contain the Protoss and thus significantly delay the timing of the Protoss player's third base. In fact, I've had exactly that happen to me quite a few times; I've even lost a couple of times because I impatiently a-moved into the Tank line when I should waited for another Colossus or another round of units. Mvp's build was a 2-bases bio/Tanks all-in, against a more standard Protoss opening correctly defending your Marine/Mine pressure and reacting to your Tank production you get completely rolled by his Zealots/Archons/Immortals charge when you first try to set up your contain. On July 25 2013 19:49 Sated wrote:I see that not a single Terran has addressed my post about Hellion/Marine multi-pronged pressure. It's really, really effective against me, so I'd love to see a Terran produce replays were such a build doesn't - at the very least - deny the Protoss from mining their expansion for a while. I'd be very surprised if anyone can produce a replay were there aren't any Probe kills, or there aren't any Probes pulled away from mining for a significant amount of time. I actually hope I'm wrong, because I'd really like to know how a single Photon Overcharge and a handful of Gateway units (usually a Stalker and a couple of Sentries) can defend one base from Hellions and another base from Marines. I lose to that sort of stuff so much when I open 20 Nexus MSC Expand On July 23 2013 21:21 Sated wrote:
If you open with a MSC expand then, even if you constantly make units from the Gateway, the units you'll have by the time Terran attacks are a Stalker and 2/3 Sentries. The scenario that gets me the most is when 4 Hellions are dropped into my main and 8 Marines run into my natural. Your units have to help defend the main because Photon Overcharge won't kill the Hellions quickly enough. Forcefields will have to be used by the Sentries, making them less useful vs. future aggression. This also makes it harder for you to scout with Hallucinations. Furthermore, pulling your units into the main leaves the natural undefended against Marines, which will force you to pull Probes. Ultimately, you're going to lose some Probes at the natural unless you're psychic, and you're going to lose some Probes in the main because 3 Hellions one-shot workers. Any additional damage dealt by forcing Probes to be pulled etc. is just a bonus for the Terran (and you probably will have to pull Probes vs. the Hellions). The amount of disruption caused will make any timing hit by the Terran in the near future very strong. You should build Stalkers and not Sentries to deal with that kind of attack, this is most likely your problem. There is no Terran timing afterwards before Medivacs come. I don't know if you're talking about Marines/Hellions before or after expand but both can be defended fine with the few units you have when it comes. Then I'm mistakingly memorising Mvp's build as something that it wasn't. In any case, I've had people do more macro oriented Tank openings against me and they still contain pretty well. They're definitely better than MMM-type contains because those contains can be shut down by good Forcefields and a single Colossus, which isn't true of a Tank-based contain. Of course, you have to commit more into a Tank-based contain, but I think that it can be worth it... and there is always the chance of catching a Protoss off-guard and doing more damage than you intend. Saying that a flood of Chargelots/Archons/Immortals will be waiting for you is erroneous. If the Protoss doesn't get Sentries early on (which you advise against doing), they won't get to scout your base until after they've chosen to build a Colossus Den. Which is it? Get Sentries for scouting so you don't get contained by Tanks, or get Stalkers so you don't die to Hellions? EDIT: Of course, I am very biased because my PvT has an awful win-rate at the moment, so I hate seeing Terrans whine about it. If Terrans are so universally sure that TvP is awful, why can't I stomp everyone? /sadzealot
You can't play Tank contain into a normal third (in his games against SaSe, Mvp built its third at like 13' or 14+' and it was mostly here for the decoration, he had already won before), it just doesn't work; you need to invest everything in the contain to get a strong grip. In macro play Tanks are only used to defend certain all-ins when opening fast expand into 1-1-1.
I didn't say you shouldn't get Sentries, I said you shouldn't have only one stalk when the Marine/Hellion attack hits [edit: reread what I wrote, sorry I worded it poorly]. But what are your Terran opponents doing, 1-1-1 before or after expand? Both variants exist, and obviously you'll have less units against the first one.
Assuming a standard 5'20 robo, you can send your first obs while leaving the second one to defend at home against a possible Mine drop. The first obs you sent will see the first Tanks. Even if you choose the Colossus path, you're not bound to be hopelessly contained, when he moves out you can move out yourself to meet him on the map (slightly ahead of your natural) and slow down his progress by forcing Siege, then you can poke with ranged Colossi to kill SCVs building bunks, etc.
Maybe post a replay if you have one of this kind of loss so we avoid incomprehension issues.
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^ This is true. It's pretty unusual not to see tanks coming. I think any tank push can be stopped by skipping forges to get gates earlier, slowing down the terran across the map, and maybe using photon overcharge. Immortals are also pretty handy imo. At least that's what I do when I see a tank push, maybe it's not impossible to squeeze in a single forge and/or a twilight in the process... but like TheDwf said, you can't do a tank push and macro behind it like you would with a regular medivac timing.
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EPT
