This is a guide about opening stargate with phoenix in PvZ. I want to go over why I think opening stargate is the best if you want to go to a macro game in PvZ. I will also go over 2 build orders, explain how to use phoenix, what to scout for and how to get a 3rd base up and running. For this guide I will be focusing on FFE only because the timings are much easier. I will also only cover opening with 4-5 phoenix into adding a robo and going for the 3rd. Because this guide is purely about how to play a macro from a phoenix opener, I recommend taking a look at the 2-2-2 build. I highly recommend learning that build order and mixing it up in your play.
Please be aware that I'm still learning this build and I will keep this guide updated (especially the replay section).
Build overview
First I want to write a bit on why I think stargate openers (phoenix openers specifically) are the best.
A very important part of it is denying zergs from having map vision. At least map vision with overlords. Once the zerg scouts you going for phoenix, they will immediately rally all their overlords to somewhere in their own base. This makes it impossible for them to scout you until they get a overseer or overlord speed, you will also get to kill all the overlord they've already sent out. With the infestor being out of the meta-game to counter phoenix, you will have a much easier time keeping your phoenix alive. This also means you can scout much easier without having to worry about (burrowed) infestors chain-fungaling your phoenix.
When you open phoenix you are safe against all early/mid-game muta openers. Having 4-5 phoenix out when your opponent spawns 15 mutas is incredibly useful and will give you the time you need to get proper anti-muta tech out. Next on the list of why phoenix are awesome is harassment. When you open phoenix you already force 6 spores (assuming your opponent has 3 bases). If they get any less, you can pick off drones very easily.
The overlord spread of a zerg facing phoenix
I want to answer the first questions many of you may have. How much damage should I strive towards doing with my phoenix. The answer is my opinion is doing 1k resources worth of damage is the bare minimum. Of course if you're in some of the lower leagues this may be difficult to pull off and could cause problems with your macro. Don't worry, once you get the hang of using phoenix you will find time in between macro cycles to control the phoenix.
When you scout your opponent's base first with the phoenix there's a couple of things you have to look for. Firstly, check his lair timing. A normal zerg opener vs FFE would be double gas at 6:00. This would allow the zerg to have his lair done at 8:20 if he would go lair with his first 100 gas. Something more common would be to get ling speed first (sometimes even an upgrade too), this would result in the lair being done around 8:50. So if you see a lair being complete (or near completion) around 8:20 or earlier, you know you're dealing with early tech. In the current meta-game this mean either fast hydra's to be aggressive or fast muta's. You may encounter unorthodox builds like fast swarmhost pushes or fast roach speed. So don't count those out. The timing of the robo will deal very well with all of this, I will discuss that later.
If the lair is going to complete at 8:50 or later you have to do more scouting. First thing you want to know is if the zerg is getting any upgrades. If it's a single evo chamber it's probably missile attack. This can either be for hydra's or locust (swarm hosts). A zerg having more than 4 queens (assuming he's still on 3 bases) is a good indicator that it may be swarmhost play. Make sure you check with he phoenix if swarmhosts are actually being made, it could also be fast ultras.
Looking at the lair timing, gas timings and the amount of queens is one thing, but actually seeing the tech units is another. Zerg can fool you by putting down multiple lair tech building but only build one of them. This is why it's important to always keep your phoenix around your opponent's base. Even when he has hydra's out, you will have to try and scout more. If you would retreat with your phoenix, you wouldn't find out if the zerg is making more hydra's to attack or just making drones behind it. Keeping phoenix around your opponent's base is even more important when the zerg is going mutas or is only making speedlings and you're unsure what tech he's going for.
Where will your phoenix be when the mutas pop out?
I'm sorry if the paragraph written above doesn't explain exactly how you should deal with swarmhost play or fast ultra's. This guide is about getting your 3rd up after opening with phoenix. I'm not going over late-game unit compositions either, I will however include many replays of macro games where you can take a look at. If you have any specific questions , please ask them.
The most important part is knowing if there's an attack coming and what units will be in the attack. Against a roach heavy (or normal roach/hydra) composition, I recommend getting 1 or 2 immortals before starting colossus production. I don't recommend making a single voidray to deal with roaches since hydras are so common in the current meta-game. You can of course go for a voidray heavy composition, players like MacSed like adding in lots of voidrays to their colossus/zealot army. But going for a single voidray to defend your 3rd against roaches, which was very common in WoL, is not worth is anymore unless you're 100% sure the zerg isn't following his push up with hydras. Heavy roach/ling pressure into mutas is something that can happen. This is another reason to keep your phoenix alive and actively scout with them.
Playing vs a passive zerg
This is something that can be annoying, especially if the zerg is just making drones and you aren't quite sure what tech he may throw at you. Even with phoenix out, a zerg suddenly making 20 mutas can cost you the game. Fortunately we have the msc now. Use this unit to put aggression on your opponent if you see him not having a lot of units. Then just recall after you've done damage.
You can also use the robo to make a warp prism while you wait for your robo bay to finish.
Build order
Now the build order for this build is quite simple but getting everything in time is very important.
Standard macro opener
(open with a normal FFE) 26 zealot (optional) 31 pylon 35 stargate 35 sentry 37 2x gas 39 pylon 43 pylon 47 1st phoenix (then just continue making them till you have 4-5) 49 sentry 51 robo (6:50) 59 sentry 59 3x gateway & +1 attack
Here is where you scout your opponent and decide if it's necessary to make immortals, get a quick robo bay and figure out how fast you can take your 3rd. Normally you want your 3rd in-between 10 and 11 minutes. On maps where it's hard to take a 3rd (like star station) it can be as late as 12 minutes, but on maps like akilon wastes you really want it at 10:00. With both build orders you want to get the msc after your 4th phoenix.
Opener with 4gate pressure
(open with a normal FFE) 26 pylon (mandatory this time, you want to use this to sneak out a probe for proxy pylons. I also recommend trying to keep your scouting probe somewhere on the map.) 36 3rd gas 36 stargate 41 sentry 43 pylon 46 4th gas 46 +1 attack 48 1st phoenix (then just continue making them till you have 4-5) 54 3x gates 60 robo (7:55)
I don't recommend using chronoboost on the warpgate or +1 attack. This makes the pressure too obvious and will probably result in the zerg being more cautious about proxy pylons. Note the difference in robo timings. If we go back to the zerg timings now, we can see that a fast lair would finish at 8:20. This would allow the zerg to have hydras out at 9:33. With the standard macro opener you would have a colossus out at 9:45 (with 3 chronoboosts on the robo), this would be well before any hydras can reach your base. But with the 4gate pressure you will only be able to get a colossus out at 10:50. This is quite a difference. You may run into trouble if your opponent holds your 4gate pressure with some roaches or lings, then adds hydras to his army and attacks you. So try scouting a bit earlier with the phoenix you're going for the 4gate pressure. Don't forget not to over commit to the pressure, you will have to warp in units to take your 3rd base too.
Tips & comments on the build
- If a queen injects, the hold position on it is lost and you can lure it out of spore crawler range again.
- Make sure to target the queen once you lift it up with the phoenix if there are overlords nearby. You don't want to waste any phoenix shots on the overlords causing you to use 2 lifts to kill 1 queen.
- If you have to defend your 3rd against speedling heavy army compositions, make sure to place your army in between your nexus and the minerals.
How to not position your army against speedlings
- Even though phoenix counter mutas pretty well (especially with the range upgrade). I advice making some cannons to defend your mineral line in case the zerg uses corruptors to fend off the mutas.
Sending phoenix out right away vs pooling up to 4-5
One isn't necessarily better than the other, both have their advantages.
Advantages of sending phoenix out right away - Can kill overlords right away and prevent your next tech path to be scouted - You will arrive at your opponent's base quicker with 2-3 phoenix and can start killing drones faster - Can scout earlier with phoenix - The zerg may put up spores quicker
Advantages of pooling up to 4-5 phoenix - May be able to get one or multiple queens - Your opponent will have anticipated the possibility of other builds for a longer time - The chances that the zerg's overlords aren't rallied properly is pretty significant.
In this game my 4gate pressure didn't do a lot of damage and I lost a lot of sentries trying to defend my 3rd. This is why I went for a timing with immortals, sentries and zealots. Fortunately for me, my opponent had a lot of supply wasted in corruptors.
In this game my 4gate failed completely and my phoenix didn't do a lot of harassment. Due to my opponent being over agressive and not teching fast enough, I was able to do a blink timing.
My opponent wanted to open mutas but after he saw my spire he decided to get some corruptors first to protect his mutas while they would do harassment. The delay on the mutas caused the zerg to make his build very inefficient because he had to add lots of spines. This gave me a pretty good lead. This game shows the importance of using warp prisms vs a zerg that uses static defense in the front of his base and the importance of having cannons vs muta/corruptor harassment.
Nothing particularly special happens in this game when it comes to opening phoenix. I still thought it would be a good replay to include since I deal with mass swarmhost turtle style very well.
In this game my opponent went for a pretty weird opener. He made a bunch of corruptors to deal with the phoenix and tried putting on some aggression with a ton of roaches. I went immortal heavy, skipped colossus and headed up towards storm in responds. This game shows well how important scouting with the phoenix all game long is.
In this game my opponent went for mutas even though I opened phoenix. I didn't see the spire (well I did scout it but I didn't actually see it). If my phoenix weren't at his base to scout the mutas the game would've been over very fast. Instead the game went on and I got my anti-muta tech eventually.
Liquid.HerO doing the standard macro opener vs Scarlett. He chose to be aggressive vs the swarmhost heavy style from scarlett. Even the fake nexus was a bit late in my opinion, but I think HerO was a bit thrown off by what scarlett was doing since he was playing so aggressive.
I’m JayPower. 20 years old and from the Netherlands. I play Protoss at a grandmaster level. My stream: http://www.twitch.tv/jaypower/. I stream my ladder games with commentary over there. I interact a lot with viewers and try to maintain a positive atmosphere that focuses on improving.
My twitter: https://twitter.com/JayPowerSC2. I don't tweet a whole lot. I mostly use it to update my followers on the content that I make and when I stream.
My website: http://jaypowersc2.com/. The site is still in the making and is lacking updates. Soon it will be completed.
Please give me feedback on the guide. I really do appreciate any feedback, so please give me suggestions on how I can improve. Any questions about the guide are welcome too, I will try to answer them as soon as possible.
Decent guide, the key with phoenix though is that they pretty much fit into everything. Phoenix with proper control just pay themselves back if you take the value of denying them scouting into it. As for the macro game, I actually prefer expanding much faster with it. A common response to phoenix play is just droning up heavily knowing that most other pushes are delayed a little bit and a quick third works great agianst that. Especially on the bigger maps a quick third is just really safe, following up with voidrays makes you safe against pretty much all aggression and you can take the third before robo basically. A quick third with a cannon walled in and a faster msc easily defends speedling aggression and roach/ling aggression or hydra/ling aggression can be held with just msc,zealots and voids if the map is big enough.
Nice guide, I'm also a big stargate & phoenix fan in PvZ. Especially because the muta techswitch is a big threat right now. In macro games, phoenixes are also amazing for picking queens up & denying map vision. Especially the queen lifts are sometimes very rewarding in a long game.
Also, it's pretty nice you posted guides for build orders, I have to check that. I usually go for stargate behind 3 gate pressure (Alicia style) and then tech up for some phoenixes or just mass voids.
So I know you said you're just gonna cover macro games, and I made about this same post in the 2-2-2 thread where I guess it belongs, but as you linked it I'll assume you've used it a little.
I know this is a bad question to ask, but how much damage should I be striving to do with phoenix if I'm going to be doing the 2-2-2? If I'm trying to play macro and have to do ~1k damage, what kind of damage do I have to do to justify a 2 minute delay in an all-in?
On July 13 2013 10:44 Hossinaut wrote: So I know you said you're just gonna cover macro games, and I made about this same post in the 2-2-2 thread where I guess it belongs, but as you linked it I'll assume you've used it a little.
I know this is a bad question to ask, but how much damage should I be striving to do with phoenix if I'm going to be doing the 2-2-2? If I'm trying to play macro and have to do ~1k damage, what kind of damage do I have to do to justify a 2 minute delay in an all-in?
Thanks!
For the 2-2-2 you want to focus more on doing the build order properly and moving out in-time. I struggle too sometimes doing 500+ damage with that build cause you can't afford to have your build delayed at all. So I would say focus on the build and use the phoenix to scout.
Thanks for the guide, man! I've been looking to open this way in PvZ for a while now, but I've been floundering in the timings a bit. This very clearly lays out some key timings and gives a good general idea of how to use phoenix, which is nice. I've been wiping the floor with zergs since learning this (except in rare cases against a really powerful ling/hydra timing).
I have one question though: I know that some people like to go up to mass phoenix/zealot and be very aggressive in the midgame; is there a particular composition or scenario where you would want to change things up a bit and deviate from robo-based play based on your scouting? Or is this just a stylistic divergence point where you get a twilight instead of robo?
solid opener. Do you ever play without sentries if you go into third after something like gate pressure? On more open maps like star station I feel sentries are not that great in combination with the phoenix style, it's really hard to use forcefield well there and you spend a lot of valuable gas on them. On maps like star station I just like to go sentryless and focus more on upgrades for the zealots instead with faster charge. Sentryless play can be weak against roach-ling pressure but by going some voids and immortals with the gas i'm saving I feel you can hold that off. Nice thing about skipping sentries is that your army becomes much easier to micro so you get much more out of your phoenixes, voids and immortals which is usually a bit much to micro all together. Phoenix lifting requires lots of attention and immortals/voids really need to target roaches but often autotarget other stuff which is hard to correct if you're also trying to FF effectively. Basically the build is the same as you do in the VOD but without sentries behind it and instead void production and a quicker council for +2 and eventually charge. Kiting speedroaches can be handled by just positioning your voids well and using your phoenix while you should be having charge if he goes for a ling/hydra push. Eventually get colossi too but not as fast as the traditional sentry style because you can't protect them as well but immortals do great with the faster upgrades anyway. I'm not sure it as effective as the traditional way to play but it's fun to change it up and especially quite effective if you know your opponent is more a fan of ling-ultra or ling-muta.
I'm interested in this because I'm a zerg player and feel phoenix openings are the easiest to deal with.
I always open +1 melee +1 carapace against protoss even before Lair and Roach speed. If I scout phoenix openings I can defend efficiently with queens and lings. I make whatever lings I need to defend gateway pressure, sometimes making none at all and go right up to 80+ drones upon scouting phoenixes, hatch 4, Macrohatch, additional queens, spores, Lair then a spire. I then do a mass ling pressure at the third that rarely fails to do damage. I get all my gases during this time. Sometimes I add roaches depending on their unit composition. Base trade scenarios are rarely a good idea against mass lings. The huge gas pool means I can get out mass mutas or transition into mass swarm hosts. Even if phoenix production is resumed you can add corrupter's. Muta ling often cannot defeat a zerg army straight up but they are excellent in base trades and can buy you time to get into a dominant economic position with mass spines and additional bases with drones distributed evenly.
I'm not saying all this to rebuke you because you play at a higher level than me. I just wanted to know how you deal against this sort of reaction so I can get an idea of what protosses are doing wrong.
solid opener. Do you ever play without sentries if you go into third after something like gate pressure? On more open maps like star station I feel sentries are not that great in combination with the phoenix style, it's really hard to use forcefield well there and you spend a lot of valuable gas on them. On maps like star station I just like to go sentryless and focus more on upgrades for the zealots instead with faster charge. Sentryless play can be weak against roach-ling pressure but by going some voids and immortals with the gas i'm saving I feel you can hold that off. Nice thing about skipping sentries is that your army becomes much easier to micro so you get much more out of your phoenixes, voids and immortals which is usually a bit much to micro all together. Phoenix lifting requires lots of attention and immortals/voids really need to target roaches but often autotarget other stuff which is hard to correct if you're also trying to FF effectively. Basically the build is the same as you do in the VOD but without sentries behind it and instead void production and a quicker council for +2 and eventually charge. Kiting speedroaches can be handled by just positioning your voids well and using your phoenix while you should be having charge if he goes for a ling/hydra push. Eventually get colossi too but not as fast as the traditional sentry style because you can't protect them as well but immortals do great with the faster upgrades anyway. I'm not sure it as effective as the traditional way to play but it's fun to change it up and especially quite effective if you know your opponent is more a fan of ling-ultra or ling-muta.
I haven't tried taking a 3rd without sentries. I prefer having support from sentries though when I'm dealing with ling / roach (+ hydra sometimes) pushes. Even if I would have charge, I think having a forcefield wall behind the roaches so they can't kite is useful. Guardian shield is also good to have. I personally stepped away from making a voidray after the phoenix to secure my 3rd. I think hydra plays are so common that I don't like the investment anymore. This is at least when you're only going to make 1 voidray. When you want to transition into a colossus + voidray heavy army, I would definitely start making voidray at that point in the game. The main focus of this guide was to get your 3rd up, I think most things after that are stylistic choices.
On August 01 2013 13:07 eburnsdaniel wrote: I'm interested in this because I'm a zerg player and feel phoenix openings are the easiest to deal with.
I always open +1 melee +1 carapace against protoss even before Lair and Roach speed. If I scout phoenix openings I can defend efficiently with queens and lings. I make whatever lings I need to defend gateway pressure, sometimes making none at all and go right up to 80+ drones upon scouting phoenixes, hatch 4, Macrohatch, additional queens, spores, Lair then a spire. I then do a mass ling pressure at the third that rarely fails to do damage. I get all my gases during this time. Sometimes I add roaches depending on their unit composition. Base trade scenarios are rarely a good idea against mass lings. The huge gas pool means I can get out mass mutas or transition into mass swarm hosts. Even if phoenix production is resumed you can add corrupter's. Muta ling often cannot defeat a zerg army straight up but they are excellent in base trades and can buy you time to get into a dominant economic position with mass spines and additional bases with drones distributed evenly.
I'm not saying all this to rebuke you because you play at a higher level than me. I just wanted to know how you deal against this sort of reaction so I can get an idea of what protosses are doing wrong.
I think your analysis is very biased into the zerg's favor. Defending +1 zealot 4gate pressure with lings is very effecient for the protoss. So those "whatever lings you need to defend gateway pressure" are going to be quite some lings. How are you going to do counter pressure with just speedlings? Sure 1/1 lings are pretty good vs +1 zealots. Proper simcity and 2-4 forcefields will make sure the speedling won't be able to attack a whole lot though. I also don't get the muta transition after that. How are mutas going to do anything when the protoss has 4-5 phoenix out and a stargate up? It seems like you're relying on the protoss to lose his phoenix' or the protoss not attacking you which will allow you to bank 15k+ and dump that all in mutas.
I have a different kind of question about this strategy than most, do you feel like player are beginning to "predict" that you will go into a robotics afterwards following your phoenix? What do you think of strategies that do not transition into Collosus but instead begin upgrading air, adding another phoenix for stargate and making constant immortals instead of collosus? I have seen some P make it work with good micro lifting the hYdralisks and killing them with phoenixes/archons and dealing with the roaches with immortals chargelots and archons. Do you think that the robotics followup is a superior transition after phoenixes or can one go into templar/zealot tech and still have a decent timing lined up after 3nex?Thanks, i play both Z and P so this is very helpful to me
On August 02 2013 16:04 c0sm0naut wrote: I have a different kind of question about this strategy than most, do you feel like player are beginning to "predict" that you will go into a robotics afterwards following your phoenix? What do you think of strategies that do not transition into Collosus but instead begin upgrading air, adding another phoenix for stargate and making constant immortals instead of collosus? I have seen some P make it work with good micro lifting the hYdralisks and killing them with phoenixes/archons and dealing with the roaches with immortals chargelots and archons. Do you think that the robotics followup is a superior transition after phoenixes or can one go into templar/zealot tech and still have a decent timing lined up after 3nex?Thanks, i play both Z and P so this is very helpful to me
Interesting questions! I'm not really sure what most zerg player think my follow-up is. When I play vs them I have a feeling they scout with being agressive. The phoenix can make it difficult to get an overseer across the map to scout. Usually they poke around with some speedlings around my 3rd or flood my with ling / roach / hydra and try to break me. I think the robo followup is the most solid transition, not necessarily the the superior. Airtoss seems ridiculously strong cause of the new voidray but can cause some more hiccups in the early/mid-game. Maybe I'm saying this because I've been doing phoenix openers into 3rd base with a robo behind it since WoL and it was my favorite build by far.
What's a good composition to have around 10-11 minutes, while taking the third. 3-4 sentries, 1 immortal, some zealots? Sometimes I don't have enough fire power and get overwhelmed. I was thinking of adding stalkers, but they seem too inefficient for their cost.
On August 20 2013 03:02 Kinon wrote: What's a good composition to have around 10-11 minutes, while taking the third. 3-4 sentries, 1 immortal, some zealots? Sometimes I don't have enough fire power and get overwhelmed. I was thinking of adding stalkers, but they seem too inefficient for their cost.
tone of zealots 2-3 sentry no immortal should be able to stop most zerling pushes . if you see a big roach attack just make 1-2 voidray
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