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On June 12 2013 18:04 vaderseven wrote:I was about to post a long rant but I don't want to pollute this thread more than it already has been. Some of you are awfully negative and if you are one, then read this spoiler. It blows my mind how irrational and spoiled some people are. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2013 04:18 vNmMasterT wrote:
TL strategy = protoss all-in/gimmick library On June 12 2013 05:28 FHC Nex wrote:
Another Protoss allin (the race that pretty much has all-in in its name) and its on front page on teamliquid? Well thanks for improving the game.
:| On June 12 2013 07:30 Thalandros wrote:
A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games. On June 12 2013 13:50 J.E.G. wrote:
Would it be possible to get something spotlighted besides protoss all-ins? On June 12 2013 15:55 TaShadan wrote:More allins? Thx  You guys are ungrateful and spoiled. You act like Team Liquid is paying these guys to go and write guides and they were feeling lazy (or hateful) and produced something subpar. The TL Strat forum highlighted guides are first written by volunteer, then edited by other volunteer, given graphics by another volunteer, put into html code by yet another volunteer, and finally posted. It takes a lot of effort at each level. It can take a team of 6 unpaid people many hours to produce a short guide that is of this quality. It is a fact that work on this guide started on May 14th on the writing side (Teoita and Alejandrisha are the writers here). A final draft (call this the working beta) is done around May 26th. Wo1food now steps in and starts to create the HTML which takes normal text and transforms it into the style that we have grown to appreciate from the TL Strat forum crew. He is done with that on June 6th. This takes a document that was 8931 characters and turns it into one that is 11776. During this time a fellow by the name of Naganis has created and finished the banner that you see at the top of the guide. On June 9th Teoita adds game analysis of 9 additional games to help flesh out the guide in a broader sense. Then, on June 11th, Monk steps in a creates a true final draft. This draft looks 99.99% like the finished form does. Hayl_Storm steps in and does a once over read looking for grammar and spelling issues. Six people, from three countries (USA, Canada, and Italy) worked for free for almost a month to produce you a high quality product and all you guys can do is complain about the choice of strategy that the writer(s) decided to focus on? Getting featured as a TL Strat forum writer isn't about following some series of rules in how you choose what to write about, its about producing accurate and usable content. If you freeloaders want something else to get spotlighted then open up some vods, grab your pen and paper, start taking notes and prepare to be surprised by the amount of work it takes. Like you all said, this is a article/guide on an all-in and, like I just said, it took a lot of effort from many people to get it complete and done. The article was based on eight vods and two sets of timings (stargate or no stargate). Now imagine the amount of increased effort and time it takes to create a guide on a style that has multiple deviations, many times the number of vods for sources, and isn't for the race that the writer plays. I cant believe how ungrateful some people can be. This is a work of passion by the people involved and if you can't say something nice, then go the heck away and don't post negative shit in the thread and rain on their parade. Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 17:40 Incognoto wrote:
It's very well written, I have to admit. How long did it take to write?
It would be nice to contact pro players and collaborate with them to continue to make great guides like this one. Read the spoiler. I actually break it down!
I honestly appreciate that people take the time to write an extended guide on how to do specific strategies, I really do. That doesn't take away however that many games will be one-sided (from either side) from now on, not just in custom/tourney games (Because pro's should already be doing this, stay ahead of the meta!), but also a LOT on ladder. Some variation would be nice (In the kind of strategy that's being put out there).
Again, I appreciate the work people do very much, doesn't mean I approve/like everything that's written.
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haha u can easily counter this 2base allin with muta tech.. gg wp
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On June 12 2013 18:26 Teoita wrote:
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too.
All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion.
Wasn't Naniwa's push from that time period also based around a variation of the +1 four gate stuff that was super popular at time time? Wasn't it also based on hitting specific timings that manipulated the standard zerg play of that time (early zealot poke to force zerglings which then have to face +1 zealots which force roaches all of which sets him back from hitting the needed drone count to support a switch to 3 base muta... which is when the colsi/zealot/sentry/prism attack hits)?
Both that build and this build are based on manipulating the standard current metagame, but that metagame has changed from then to now so both builds are completely different.
Stage 1 Naniwa - 2 Zealot poke to force more lings than normal
Stage 1 2/2/2 - Single zealot to block wall and stalker to deny scouting. No poke
Stage 2 Naniwa - +1 4 Gate Zealot pressure to punish ling count and force roaches. Helps build appear normal as this is standard meta.
Stage 2 2/2/2 - Stargate tech to appear normal, deny scouting, and do some harass OR fast robo tech in order to make next stage hit faster
Stage 3 Naniwa - 12 minute 2 Colsi, 8 Sentry, and mass +1 Zealot. Push timed to hit when a Zerg will finally be catching up in economy and attempting a transition to muta. Punishes the Zerg who is still on roach/ling and has not been pumping units.
Stage 3 2/2/2 - 11:30 push if Stargate and 9:50 if none, +1 attack, 2 colsi and 2 immortals, 8 Sentry. Push timed to hit before a zerg can transition from ling/hydra into ling/hydra/swarm host/viper/ultra.
Stage 1 and 2 are radically different. Naniwa's colsi push from that mlg was based on a very smart and assertive use of early zealots to force units while the 2/2/2 is based on a safety zealot and scout denying stalker. Naniwa cared much more about forcing units via direct map pressure while the 2/2/2 cares more about playing the cards close to the chest. Stage 2 for both styles is built around the most common 2 base plays of their time. The intent in stage 2 is totally different in Naniwas build when compared to the 2/2/2. Naniwa was keeping true to his theme of forcing units directly by putting the zerg in a reactive defensive mindset. The 2/2/2 is focused still on keeping information hidden and the main push veiled.
Stage 3 of each build is about hitting a timing when the Zerg is making a major mid game transition. Both the old and the new build feature ~8 Sentrys and 2 Colsi with supporting ground units. The way the protoss plays out the game leading to this attack and the exact composition of the attack are very different and reflect the changing times of the matchup.
To say its a revamp is weird. It fills a similar role in the arsenal of build orders for a toss player (that of a 2 base timing push designed to have an incredibly hard to deal with unit composition that hits during a transitional period for the zerg). Both builds allow the protoss to execute some control over the corners the zerg will feel safe in cutting in subsequent matches. You can not make the leap from that build to this one though. There is nothing about forcing extra lings, into counter lings hard while forcing roaches, into hitting a weakened (due to forced units) pre muta timing that should compare to playing a slightly passive fast expand into a standard style of teching while denying scouting and trying to suggest to the zerg you want to take a 3rd and then hitting him as he is transitioning to late game.
It is extremely reasonable to say that the protoss that first did this 2/2/2 build sat down with the goal of hitting a timing attack while trying to mask the appearance of trying to hit one until the last second. It is also reasonable to say that when Naniwa made his build up he sat down and thought of a way to force out units at several key timings when a Zerg would normally be powering while gearing up to hit a timing that hits before a big tech switch. No one trying to make the 2/2/2 would start with the Naniwa build and modify it till it was as seen in the vods in this guide.
Strategies are solutions to problems. Naniwa had a different problem than the one this build solves. Simple as that!
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On June 12 2013 18:44 Alejandrisha wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 18:24 Sakkreth wrote:On June 12 2013 12:56 NiHiLuSsc2 wrote:
only real basketball fans will actually get the magic joke in all its furor Not really, triple double how hard is to get that... But real basketball fans would know that then it should be actually called Oscar Robertson. And btw hate that it got published, I've been doing this already... Now zergs will know how to defend better as way more tosses will be doing this now. it's the magic johnson because 'triple double trouble' was one of his nicknames. one he got for having by far the most playoff triple doubles, at least since they started recording steals and blocks. chamberlain and russel probably had more than magic or robertson, but that doesn't matter because they weren't nicknamed 'triple double trouble.'
And oscar was named mr. Triple double and is the only player ever to average triple double for whole season.
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On June 12 2013 18:26 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:19 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote:
These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm.
b) They are done without a stargate as well.
c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too. All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion. The reason this works so well today is because people are trying to defend with Hydralisks and Zerglings. As noted in the weaknesses section, even considering any "optimizations" of 2 base Colossus builds, old mass Roach builds will roll over this. If that's the build i'm thinking about, i'm also pretty sure he disegned it to (blind) counter IM's roach/ling>muta build which Nestea and Losira were doing all the time, since Naniwa played Nestea at MLG and whatnot a bunch of times, so the reasoning behind the builds are different. I agree that old mass roach builds are really good vs this (although i have beaten people roach maxing simply because they were worse than me), but as posted in the intro, that's not a good reason to say the build isn't valid. edit: also at the people saying "I dont like this getting published, now people will know how to defend it": anyone watching sc2 would know this build exists. When it comes to 2base all-ins vs Z, it's less about knowing a build is coming and more about the execution on both sides. If you are the better player and know how to engage well, you will still beat him. Builds don't have to be secrets catching people off guard to be strong, all-ins included.
One of the good things about guides like these is that this build has counters but the counters also have counters. This is the essence of a strategy game. If, through this build/guide, more Protoss start using this all-in, then good zerg players will figure out that the old roach builds are still completely viable strategies that are good to know. This increases the overall diversity of the amount of strategies that can be used in the current meta game, which is actually a pretty good thing. Players with good overall knowledge and are capable of strategic scouting and decision making are the ones who will thrive whenever good guides like these are posted.
It's one of the reasons I love to browse the strategy section. Just so much game knowledge lying around everywhere. Even if some guides aren't "viable" at the highest level of play, once you figure out why that's the case, you improve your general knowledge of the game and yourself. Those guides are still great sources of information.
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I must say I love the write up lol
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Great guide and write up!
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I feel like on EU High Master Ladder, the zerg players are more roach ling focussed in the midgame or even mutas, so I dont feel not so confident to play this. First reason is, that they will check for your third, no matter what, so they should smell it, and when playing stargate to deny a overlordscout, they will send some lings. Also with a phoenix-opening, they will smell it when seeing no third and just produce roach ling, which can hold off any all in when its good positioned.
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I am Protoss player and this is a super build that works very often on ladder...however...if you are a zerg player...My advice for all Protoss match ups is: Drone, Drone, Drone...Scout, Scout, Scout, Add tech buildings, Drone, Drone, Drone, REACT...
The perfect game to illustrate this is Parting (the master of this build) V Soulkey (the master reactionary Zerg) GSL Round of 16 last season...
The correct reaction by the Zerg to this build is mass muta... Surprise Soulkey executes and wins...
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This is very similar to the WOL version just with some small changes. Quite nice build. Im pretty sure that im, gonna look more into it later
Thanks TL.
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Created both variations of the 2-2-2 inside the flowcharts now
Stargate 2-2-2: Stargate 2-2-2
2-2-2 no stargate: 2-2-2
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Anyone has a replay for this? At least Masters or High Dia level tia
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Great, metagame moved from 2base allin to 2base allin.
Fuck zvp, fuck the game.
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United States910 Posts
On June 12 2013 18:44 Thalandros wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 18:04 vaderseven wrote:I was about to post a long rant but I don't want to pollute this thread more than it already has been. Some of you are awfully negative and if you are one, then read this spoiler. It blows my mind how irrational and spoiled some people are. + Show Spoiler +On June 12 2013 04:18 vNmMasterT wrote:
TL strategy = protoss all-in/gimmick library On June 12 2013 05:28 FHC Nex wrote:
Another Protoss allin (the race that pretty much has all-in in its name) and its on front page on teamliquid? Well thanks for improving the game.
:| On June 12 2013 07:30 Thalandros wrote:
A part of me just dies when I read this. Why introduce more allins to the population of Starcraft? =( The game is sad enough already with the countless black and white games. On June 12 2013 13:50 J.E.G. wrote:
Would it be possible to get something spotlighted besides protoss all-ins? On June 12 2013 15:55 TaShadan wrote:More allins? Thx You guys are ungrateful and spoiled. You act like Team Liquid is paying these guys to go and write guides and they were feeling lazy (or hateful) and produced something subpar. The TL Strat forum highlighted guides are first written by volunteer, then edited by other volunteer, given graphics by another volunteer, put into html code by yet another volunteer, and finally posted. It takes a lot of effort at each level. It can take a team of 6 unpaid people many hours to produce a short guide that is of this quality. It is a fact that work on this guide started on May 14th on the writing side (Teoita and Alejandrisha are the writers here). A final draft (call this the working beta) is done around May 26th. Wo1food now steps in and starts to create the HTML which takes normal text and transforms it into the style that we have grown to appreciate from the TL Strat forum crew. He is done with that on June 6th. This takes a document that was 8931 characters and turns it into one that is 11776. During this time a fellow by the name of Naganis has created and finished the banner that you see at the top of the guide. On June 9th Teoita adds game analysis of 9 additional games to help flesh out the guide in a broader sense. Then, on June 11th, Monk steps in a creates a true final draft. This draft looks 99.99% like the finished form does. Hayl_Storm steps in and does a once over read looking for grammar and spelling issues. Six people, from three countries (USA, Canada, and Italy) worked for free for almost a month to produce you a high quality product and all you guys can do is complain about the choice of strategy that the writer(s) decided to focus on? Getting featured as a TL Strat forum writer isn't about following some series of rules in how you choose what to write about, its about producing accurate and usable content. If you freeloaders want something else to get spotlighted then open up some vods, grab your pen and paper, start taking notes and prepare to be surprised by the amount of work it takes. Like you all said, this is a article/guide on an all-in and, like I just said, it took a lot of effort from many people to get it complete and done. The article was based on eight vods and two sets of timings (stargate or no stargate). Now imagine the amount of increased effort and time it takes to create a guide on a style that has multiple deviations, many times the number of vods for sources, and isn't for the race that the writer plays. I cant believe how ungrateful some people can be. This is a work of passion by the people involved and if you can't say something nice, then go the heck away and don't post negative shit in the thread and rain on their parade. On June 12 2013 17:40 Incognoto wrote:
It's very well written, I have to admit. How long did it take to write?
It would be nice to contact pro players and collaborate with them to continue to make great guides like this one. Read the spoiler. I actually break it down! I honestly appreciate that people take the time to write an extended guide on how to do specific strategies, I really do. That doesn't take away however that many games will be one-sided (from either side) from now on, not just in custom/tourney games (Because pro's should already be doing this, stay ahead of the meta!), but also a LOT on ladder. Some variation would be nice (In the kind of strategy that's being put out there). Again, I appreciate the work people do very much, doesn't mean I approve/like everything that's written.
This build will contribute .001% to actual gameplay on the battlenet servers. Versions of this build already exist and are used by pros and on ladder. The number of people who will read about this build and execute it on ladder, which has over 500K players, is extremely low. The odds they'll do so each game is lower. The odds they'll do so against you are even yet lower. And in the event everyone started doing this all of the time, it has a counter -- do the old Stephano roach max, so you should have no problems beating it. Further if you think this build alone will shift the metagame on the ladder from an aggressive all-in build culture to a macro only one is for all of the above reasons extremely unlikely. Most people who don't all in aren't going to start exclusively all inning because of this and those that do, well, they were going to all in anyway so this guide doesn't change much of anything.
There's really no basis for your opinion and as a result it's stupid and arrogant to whine about a well written, funny and informative guide even if you're just expressing your honest opinion.
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On June 12 2013 22:50 shin_toss wrote:Anyone has a replay for this? At least Masters or High Dia level tia
I have one for the stargate version: http://drop.sc/342760
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I find it difficult to get my immortals out fast enough if I build my robo bay and gateway units on time without cutting probes. I must doing something else wrong...
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On June 12 2013 18:26 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2013 09:19 BronzeKnee wrote:On June 12 2013 08:28 Teoita wrote:
These newer colossus pushes are different because
a) They are far, far more optimized. People used to hit after 12 minutes (see Ace at the IEM he won in 2010), nowadays 10-11 is the norm.
b) They are done without a stargate as well.
c) They include immortals and/or a warp prism, which was never the case back then.
Let's be careful what we say here. On a rare occasion I still use Naniwa's 2 Base Colossus build that I used to use all the time(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=296450). It hits at 12 minutes, but it features some early Zealot harass followed up by 4 Gate Zealot harass, followed up by Warp Prism Zealot harass and then finally, the push. That old push also included a Warprism and was done without a Stargate too. All that harass potential to deny the third base and damage/delay the Zerg economy is often worth the one minute delay (though Naniwa's push comes without the 2 Immortals, but as hellokitty shows, those aren't key to the push). It is a far more complex build order and harder to execute, so to say this is some kind of optimization just isn't true. This build is just a back to the basics Colossus all-in, done in barebones fashion. The reason this works so well today is because people are trying to defend with Hydralisks and Zerglings. As noted in the weaknesses section, even considering any "optimizations" of 2 base Colossus builds, old mass Roach builds will roll over this. If that's the build i'm thinking about, i'm also pretty sure he disegned it to (blind) counter IM's roach/ling>muta build which Nestea and Losira were doing all the time, since Naniwa played Nestea at MLG and whatnot a bunch of times, so the reasoning behind the builds are different. I agree that old mass roach builds are really good vs this (although i have beaten people roach maxing simply because they were worse than me), but as posted in the intro, that's not a good reason to say the build isn't valid. edit: also at the people saying "I dont like this getting published, now people will know how to defend it": anyone watching sc2 would know this build exists. When it comes to 2base all-ins vs Z, it's less about knowing a build is coming and more about the execution on both sides. If you are the better player and know how to engage well, you will still beat him. Builds don't have to be secrets catching people off guard to be strong, all-ins included.
My point was that there were old 2 base Colossus builds out there that had a Warp Prism and weren't coming from a Stargate opening, and that this build wasn't some amazing optimization of any of those. It is just a barebones rush to 2 Immortals and 2 Colossus, and then an attack. It is working because people are using Hydralisks and Zerglings, which are terrible against Colossus, not because of any optimization. And that is why we see different variations working too (with 1 or 2 Immortals, with or without a Stargate), with the similarity being that the build has Colossus.
On June 12 2013 22:50 boxerfred wrote:
Great, metagame moved from 2base allin to 2base allin.
Fuck zvp, fuck the game.
I wonder what the Protoss winrate would be without all-ins...
I think if somehow all-ins were removed from the game, Protoss would suffer the most. That says a lot about how Protoss is designed, if we can't compete in macro games.
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On June 12 2013 22:50 boxerfred wrote:
Great, metagame moved from 2base allin to 2base allin.
Fuck zvp, fuck the game.
Yeah makes me happy that I dont ladder anymore.
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I killed someone doing this build with a burrowed roach (no speed) + speedling all-in off two base. Then I killed someone who played super greedy as Z with this build. I like the build itself.
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EPT
