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Hey guys! My name is Gabriel a.k.a Sandshrew. I'm a 15y/o high master swedish terran player on EU. And I'm currently playing for EchO Gaming. So today I'm going to be talking about how to scout in TvP. This is a huge issue that many people are having since they don't know what to scout, and how to scout it.
So down below I have the different scenarios you can be put in when reaper scouting or SCV scouting. I would suggest going for a Reaper FE since there are so many possibilities for protoss player these days. I suggest watching Day[9]'s daily on DeMusliM's TvP build here:
http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-583-demuslim-tvp/
Or my write-up of the build here:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1mPXaarHqcnzsdL3voI4RniDghU_tB-ynCgy0Oo1k_O8
So let's get started with the different scenarios!
If the protoss has...
1 gas (3 workers in it): + Show Spoiler +Gateway expo (expansion will be started around 3:50-4:10, will vary depending on if toss chronos units). If there is ALOT of energy left on the nexus, be prepared for warpgate aggression. But if he chronos the nexus (has low energy) it will probably be eco play. It's standard to chrono the gateway to get zealot/stalker out. And one chrono on the cybernetics core is also pretty standard. So don't get intimidated by that! If the protoss doesn’t have his nexus down at 3:50-4:10, confirm that he expo’d at 4:50-5:10 with an SCV or reaper. If he doesn't, it will either be a 4 gate at the front, but it's always possible for the protoss to go for a 4 gate drop! If it's a 4 gate drop the robo will come down at around 4:30 usually. And very often proxied! So right after you see that he has no expo by 5:00, check proxy locations (the pylon usually comes down around 4min), and if you see a robo just build two bunkers at the front and a bunker or two in your main = ez hold  Beware though. After they expand, there is still a possibility of them going for aggression (2 base 4 gate aggression for example). So if you open reaper, scout for proxy pylons and/or go into his main and check his gateway count. Standard right now is 1 gate expo into 1 gate robo. So if you scout that, it's completely standard. If you scout any tech patterns after expanding it's probably okay. But if you scout a Twilight Council, beware of DT drops of 2 base!
2 gas (2 workers in each): + Show Spoiler +Probably a mothership core expo. This is very, very common. But beware of them adding 2 workers on the gases when you leave so they'll have 3 on each. As always, confirm that he expo’d at around 5:30-5:40 incase he put 3 guys in each gas after you left! Also, a standard mothership core timing is 4:15min~. That's around the same time as the stalker pops The core also usually starts building before the stalker. Same applies here as in 1 gas expo, beware of any gateway aggression after expo, or DT drops! Scout it with a reaper incase you opened with one Otherwise scan around 6min. Gateway aggression after this kind of expo with double gas is very, very rare though! So I wouldn't really worry about it
2 gas (3 workers in each) w/ fast mothership core: + Show Spoiler +This is most likely a blink stalker all in! The other option is for them to go into sentry expo. If you suspect blink stalker all in, then build bunkers at edges of your base, and lift your nat into your main if you want to be extra safe! If you open reaper expo, should go back and scout the protoss natural at around 5:30 to confirm an expo. If there isn’t any, it will be a blink stalker all in. You can also check his natural with an SCV.
2 gas (3 workers in each) w/ delayed mothership core: + Show Spoiler +This is a very heavy tech build. This can indicate DT drop, Proxy robo all in or Stargate play. Scout around with a reaper, marine or scv to find proxy tech! If he saves up alot of chrono, then it's probably not a DT drop. This is due to that the dark shrine can't be chrono boosted! And if he decides to use chrono for a DT drop, it's for the robo. I've never seen it used on the gates in this instance. This doesn’t 100% mean it’s an all in, just because it’s possible to expo behind a proxy oracle for example.
Counting pylons: + Show Spoiler +Another really important thing to do is to count pylons inside the protoss base. When he starts his stalker his 3rd pylon should be on the way. If it's not inside his base, it's probably proxied. When the stalker is finished the 3rd pylon needs to be DONE inside his base!
If no expo at 5:30, it's most likely an all-in!
Thank you for reading my guide! I did it for you guys, so hopefully you'll learn something ^^
DISCLAIMER: Protoss players MIGHT mindgame you into thinking they're going one build, but in reality they're doing something completely else. Beware of that! Keep scouting
People that contributed to this guide:
vhapter [TL]
Axolotl777 [Reddit]
Cheers!
- EchO.Sandshrew
If you have any questions you can contact me at Sandshrew.139 @ EU
My twitter
My stream
My team's twitter
Poll: Did you find this useful?Yes (248) 93% A little (12) 4% No (8) 3% 268 total votes Your vote: Did you find this useful? (Vote): Yes
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A warp prism 4-gate doesn't require double gas by the way. The only difference is you generally chrono wg 3 times instead of 4 and make a robo at about 4:30 at the terran's third or somewhere close. A proxy pylon will typically be built at about 4 minutes with this strategy.
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Nice guide, basic things but always useful. Thanks !
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On May 05 2013 04:09 vhapter wrote:
A warp prism 4-gate doesn't require double gas by the way. The only difference is you generally chrono wg 3 times instead of 4 and make a robo at about 4:30 at the terran's third or somewhere close. A proxy pylon will typically be built at about 4 minutes with this strategy.
Oh ok cool thanks. I didn't know that actually. I'll put it in the guide! Thanks for contributing
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This is excellent. thank you
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great, now i can actually understand what my reaper sees!
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Great now i have a reason to scout!
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On May 06 2013 02:04 MHT wrote:
Great now i have a reason to scout!
That's always good! xd
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nice! thanks for the tips, it'll be useful
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Can't a delayed core be blink stalker allin too? I'm pretty sure ive seen it on Demu's stream when the core basically just comes there in time for vision and possibly 1 slow-thingie. Think it was Nony that did it.
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May be a dumb question, what is a fast/delay MSC?
What should be the standard timing for it to be out?
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I think that you accidently put smiles into "2 gas (2 workers in each)."
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Nice guide! And I like your new name  // Your m8 Piiika!
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On May 07 2013 17:21 Dark.EX wrote:
I think that you accidently put smiles into "2 gas (2 workers in each)."
Nah, I'm just a happy kid :D
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On May 07 2013 17:42 Pikachu. wrote:Nice guide! And I like your new name // Your m8 Piiika!
<3 I like your name too ;3
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On May 07 2013 17:16 stoppersur wrote:
May be a dumb question, what is a fast/delay MSC?
What should be the standard timing for it to be out?
A fast MSC is when they start it right after the cyber finishes. It will finish around 4:20~
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On May 06 2013 04:27 Zarahtra wrote:
Can't a delayed core be blink stalker allin too? I'm pretty sure ive seen it on Demu's stream when the core basically just comes there in time for vision and possibly 1 slow-thingie. Think it was Nony that did it.
That was probably mindgames. You really want that 2nd Time Warp. But ofc, delayed core indicates tech, and blink is also a tech :D But as I said, it's very uncommon to go blink all in of a delayed MSC. But as always, there are some people that do it other ways ^^
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On May 07 2013 22:13 ImVirus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 17:21 Dark.EX wrote:
I think that you accidently put smiles into "2 gas (2 workers in each)." Nah, I'm just a happy kid :D
Oh, okay.
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Good guide thx bro.
Toos bad toss has so many openings including allins, 2 bases all in and macro play, when terran has only 1 or 2 and macro play only...
You have to scout AND defend perfectly, because among the 10ish allins protoss can do, some of them are very difficult to hold, even if you know its coming...
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On May 07 2013 22:15 ImVirus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2013 17:16 stoppersur wrote:
May be a dumb question, what is a fast/delay MSC?
What should be the standard timing for it to be out? A fast MSC is when they start it right after the cyber finishes. It will finish around 4:20~
Don't forget you can tell if a MSC is building from the nexus animation. You should always be able to scout long enough to see if he starts it right after the core (both with reaper or scv).
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This still assumes your opponent has any idea what they are doing though. I'm in masters and I couldn't tell you how much gas I use for any of my builds.
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2 gas 4gate is possible, but almost non-existent this days ;O
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Is this guide still true or metagame changed?
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The metagame has changed as far as gas timings are concerned. Protoss will always be going 2 gas geysers in TvP now, so you can't base anything off of that. Everything else is somewhat correct, I think?
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It's a question of whether they have 2 on each gas or 3. 3 on each gas is an indication of tech before expansion (if they even expand) while 2 on each is an indication that the tech comes after expansion.
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On July 17 2013 16:22 Dark.EX wrote:
The metagame has changed as far as gas timings are concerned. Protoss will always be going 2 gas geysers in TvP now, so you can't base anything off of that. Everything else is somewhat correct, I think?
I still see plenty of 1 geyser openings. Problem is that still a quite wide range of options after that.
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On July 17 2013 23:46 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2013 16:22 Dark.EX wrote:
The metagame has changed as far as gas timings are concerned. Protoss will always be going 2 gas geysers in TvP now, so you can't base anything off of that. Everything else is somewhat correct, I think? I still see plenty of 1 geyser openings. Problem is that still a quite wide range of options after that.
I haven't seen any at the pro level or in my own TvP's. Odd.
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Heres a scouting question for you from a game last night:
Toss opens GW, Cyber followed by Twilight and 2 more gateways. I scan him as his other gateways are popping and see the twilight researching, with no expansion down. Blink all-in right? So I throw down some bunkers in my base on the high ground, I get two tanks, and get ready. The attack doesn't come, and new scouting reveals no nexus, 6 gates plus a DT shrine. So now its time to throw down a few turrets. STILL no attack at the 12 minute mark, and now his composition reveals that he has stopped stalkers and has a ton of zealots, so its going to be zealot archon, right? Time to get the ghost academy down and some hellbats...
The end result was that he ended up with basically a pure gateway force while my tech was all over the damn place, with my mining and build disrupted. Not sure what I really should have done here, since a lot of my problems were a direct result of my scouting... had I simply gone ahead with my original build I would have smashed him, but when you spot a researching twilight at 5 minutes I don't really see how you can do anything other than gear up to defend the high ground, and when I see all those zealots and no DT harass I kind of have to assume he researched charge (which is what he was actually researching when I scanned) and is using the DT shrine to pump archones. How would you play in this situation?
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On July 18 2013 01:16 rikter wrote:
Heres a scouting question for you from a game last night:
Toss opens GW, Cyber followed by Twilight and 2 more gateways. I scan him as his other gateways are popping and see the twilight researching, with no expansion down. Blink all-in right? So I throw down some bunkers in my base on the high ground, I get two tanks, and get ready. The attack doesn't come, and new scouting reveals no nexus, 6 gates plus a DT shrine. So now its time to throw down a few turrets. STILL no attack at the 12 minute mark, and now his composition reveals that he has stopped stalkers and has a ton of zealots, so its going to be zealot archon, right? Time to get the ghost academy down and some hellbats...
The end result was that he ended up with basically a pure gateway force while my tech was all over the damn place, with my mining and build disrupted. Not sure what I really should have done here, since a lot of my problems were a direct result of my scouting... had I simply gone ahead with my original build I would have smashed him, but when you spot a researching twilight at 5 minutes I don't really see how you can do anything other than gear up to defend the high ground, and when I see all those zealots and no DT harass I kind of have to assume he researched charge (which is what he was actually researching when I scanned) and is using the DT shrine to pump archones. How would you play in this situation?
I don't get it, toss was only on one base? Something is missing here? We're you on one base too? What was your build exactly?
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Heres how it went down: I open 1 rax 1expand, and when my scv pokes back in around 415 or so it is denied. The scan reveals the extra barracks finishing and twilight researching, and he has no expansion up. My response is to prepare to hold what sure looks like a blink all-in, so I delay the starport in order to get a tank out, and throw some bunkers on the high ground. I cut SCVs to put the money into units/bunkers.
Come the 8 minute mark he still hasnt attacked, still has no expo and has added on more gateways and the dark shrine. From what I see of his composition it is mostly stalkers plus a few sentries. Come 10 minutes with STILL no attack, no DT harass, I scan and see he is just getting an expo up and that his composition is now overwhelmingly zealots. From here I figure that he is using the DTs for archons...and zealot archon requires Hellbats/Ghosts, not the marauder heavy composition I had been powering in response to the blink i thought was coming.
Basically I would up pinning myself back in my base and tech switching until this guy who was behind became ahead due to my fractured composition and delays from trying to respond appropriately to what I was seeing.
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I open a lot with a 2 or 3 rax opening. allow you to scout very well, deny proxy pylon and put pressure on if the protoss is greedy. the only problem is blink stalker a little bit hard to pull but overall it's very efficient and disturb a lot protoss plan.
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On July 18 2013 03:17 SSVnormandy wrote:
I open a lot with a 2 or 3 rax opening. allow you to scout very well, deny proxy pylon and put pressure on if the protoss is greedy. the only problem is blink stalker a little bit hard to pull but overall it's very efficient and disturb a lot protoss plan.
The issue here is that I scouted him maybe a little too well; the toss all-ins are so strong and so varied that you really cant just ignore it, and each requires its own specific response. The cost of him putting up structures he didnt need right away pales in comparison to the cost of me delaying a starport and other units to make tanks and high ground bunkers etc, and the various tech switches only put me farther behind, while his composition eventually normalized.
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So basically even after you scout the toss gas timings, you have no defiinitve idea of what build he is doing. The only real indicator IMO is an expo.
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We need a new TvP scouting guide for HotS!
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On July 18 2013 03:27 SoniC_eu wrote:
So basically even after you scout the toss gas timings, you have no defiinitve idea of what build he is doing. The only real indicator IMO is an expo.
More or less yes but that's also everything you wanna know. If you see no expo at 5:40 don't expand yourself until it's "safe" but keep building SCVs so when you finally float your expo down to your natural you can saturate it immediately.
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On July 18 2013 03:27 SoniC_eu wrote:
So basically even after you scout the toss gas timings, you have no defiinitve idea of what build he is doing. The only real indicator IMO is an expo.
You get an idea of what he is NOT doing as well as what he could be doing. Chrono boost usage (saving? on his core?), the amount of probes mining gas, whether he is building a msc core right away or not, his pylon count/timing vs nexus timing vs amount of units before both, among other things, tell you a story. I think terran players should actually study most protoss openings so they can better understand them. Even seeing a nexus doesn't stop the protoss from going stargate, dts, or whatever, but you can rule early all ins and a few things (a blink all-in is pretty unlikely because it's much weaker).
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EPT
