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I see a lot of people here saying you can't allow Protoss to get there.
The question is: how do you do that?
I mean, in WoL, when Z had the stronger lategame composition, Protoss had the advantage of faster tech allowing him a lot of deadly 2/3 base pushes with immortal/colossi respectively.
What does Zerg have to disturb the protoss? Protoss now is in better tech from start to finish.
How do you do damage to a turtling protoss?
Also, this seems very unfair balance in lower leagues.
While in WoL protoss had a pretty good chance of preventing infestor/broodlord by simply macroing 3 bases and a-moving a colossus deathball, the same can't be said here. Zerg requires insane APM to put pressure on protoss because he never gets this intermediate timing when he can just a-move and crush before skytoss deathball.
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Hyrda viper is really the only thing that has come close to beating me as a skytoss player, but then you would really have to be careful of ht, carrier and tempest snipes. If you can delay their third and stave off any potential harrassment, then I'd say you're in a good spot, which means roaches to snipe the third and stop any +1 4 gates that are really fun to do  hydra swarm host can work decently well, but I've heard that takes a lot of gas. Overall, I would say make delaying their third and fourth bases as much as possible your top priority, since skytoss takes a ton of gas and keep up with those upgrades! I know we get to chrono ours, but attacking with 0/0 corruptors is just not going to work.
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If you're talking just Carrier Voidrays...
Void rays seem to be countered pretty easily with upgraded mutas. Considering how much cheaper mutas are, they trade pretty well. I understand infestors have been nerfed, but infested terrans are still pretty good vs fungaled void rays combined with mutas which do bounce damage and take forever and a day to be killed with void rays. I've seen several pro games where ~12 charged void rays (3000 mins, 1800 gas 48 supply) get LOLd by ~20 mutas (2000 min, 2000 gas, 40 supply). Carriers can then be finished off with corrupters and fungal the interceptors going in.
If the protoss is smart and adds HT, it gets really gross watching zerg try to engage that. It's funny that HT were never used vs Zerg in WoL and now without any HT buff, it's such a scary unit to deal with.
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To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it.
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I've never seen a game where Zerg went Hydra/Viper and beat mass carrier (6+) with voids and HT and won without the protoss massively fucking up the engagement. If for some reason the protoss sits on their army and allows you to slowly pull away 1-2 units at a time and kill them, you can do it. However people are figuring this out and just A-moving their ball over yours with time warp and it's instant GG. I'd love to see a replay of anyone beating 6+ Carriers, voidrays and HT vs any Zerg army where the protoss actually used time warp/feedback and had at least decent control. I still to this day have not seen it work unless the protoss colossally fucks up their control or does not use their abilities well. If anyone out there actually has a replay of a protoss hitting money time warps, storms and feedbacks (aka playing well) while also using solid positioning but still losing, I'd pay to see it.
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On April 01 2013 06:13 Mr. Nefarious wrote:
I've never seen a game where Zerg went Hydra/Viper and beat mass carrier (6+) with voids and HT and won without the protoss massively fucking up the engagement. If for some reason the protoss sits on their army and allows you to slowly pull away 1-2 units at a time and kill them, you can do it. However people are figuring this out and just A-moving their ball over yours with time warp and it's instant GG. I'd love to see a replay of anyone beating 6+ Carriers, voidrays and HT vs any Zerg army where the protoss actually used time warp/feedback and had at least decent control. I still to this day have not seen it work unless the protoss colossally fucks up their control or does not use their abilities well. If anyone out there actually has a replay of a protoss hitting money time warps, storms and feedbacks (aka playing well) while also using solid positioning but still losing, I'd pay to see it.
You have to realize the weakness of mass air + only templar support.
Swarmhosts/ultras will kill the templar and they won't be able to feedback/storm when their dead. Carriers/voids don't kill ultra and swarmhost locusts fast enough so you clear the templar then abduct and get an easy win.
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You can always go the route of taking the whole map, making 70 mutalisks and 300 spore crawlers, and base trading the Protoss, if they start making phoenixes just add some corruptors to your muta flock to chase them off
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vs non-carrier builds use blades composition (i like more queens than hydras but thats a personal thing, if you have the gas, why not).
once carrier are involved which can kill your viper before abducting in a cost efficient way you need queens, corruptors and infestors with 15-20 SHs and spores. stop building viper and hydras at that point. 2 queens and 1 infestor is the same supply and pretty much same cost as 3 hydras and vs carriers involved the queen infestor (fungal interceptors is huge) corruptor comp deals far better with them than viper hydra.
On April 01 2013 06:28 Xequecal wrote:
You can always go the route of taking the whole map, making 70 mutalisks and 300 spore crawlers, and base trading the Protoss, if they start making phoenixes just add some corruptors to your muta flock to chase them off
if this is not a troll: HT, carrier and cannons rape mutas...so you dont want to do this even if you could support 70 mutas and 300 spores ^^
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On April 01 2013 06:11 blade55555 wrote:
To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it.
Blade, I've seen a lot of vids from your stream during and after the BETA and I know you have pretty high APM.
The question I'd like to ask you is this: do you think a lower APM Zerg can play hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively?
If we compare this to WoL PvZ, the standard way for a P to play was to push with colossi before broodlord tech.
This is something a plat player can do, even if he lacks the APM to add warp prism/DT harass into the mix.
However, in HotS ZvP, the strats that counter turtle toss seem to be way more APM intensive than those that counter turtle Zerg in WoL.
I don't really see how someone with lower APM than masters level can hope for a fair fight. Sure, a plat toss will be slower to max, but he'll get there. What can a plat Zerg realistically do in the meantime? No plat guy can use hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively without penalizing his macro heavily.
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On April 01 2013 06:29 Decendos wrote:
if this is not a troll: HT, carrier and cannons rape mutas...so you dont want to do this even if you could support 70 mutas and 300 spores ^^
Yes, I know carriers rape mutas. That's why you wait for them to move out, and base trade him when his carriers aren't in his base. Cannons are not effective against large muta swarms, and the spore crawlers are just there to slow his air army down and ensure you kill his base faster than he can kill yours.
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Simple.. you beat protoss before they get up to carrier/voidray mass
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On April 01 2013 07:15 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 06:29 Decendos wrote:
if this is not a troll: HT, carrier and cannons rape mutas...so you dont want to do this even if you could support 70 mutas and 300 spores ^^ Yes, I know carriers rape mutas. That's why you wait for them to move out, and base trade him when his carriers aren't in his base. Cannons are not effective against large muta swarms, and the spore crawlers are just there to slow his air army down and ensure you kill his base faster than he can kill yours.
10 cannons + 2 HT per base deal with 70 mutas very easily or stall long enough for the carriers to arrive. also he has recall. and carrier range covers at least 3 bases. just dont do that style you mentioned  he even can attack with half his carrier and keep half at home if he sees you only have mutas
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In a unit tester I've found that if you have an upgrade advantage then you can beat maxed out carrier void ray with maxed out corruptor. Unfortunately this was in WoL and I don't know how things were changed in HOTS
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Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
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On April 01 2013 06:32 Azoryen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 01 2013 06:11 blade55555 wrote:
To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it. Blade, I've seen a lot of vids from your stream during and after the BETA and I know you have pretty high APM. The question I'd like to ask you is this: do you think a lower APM Zerg can play hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively? If we compare this to WoL PvZ, the standard way for a P to play was to push with colossi before broodlord tech. This is something a plat player can do, even if he lacks the APM to add warp prism/DT harass into the mix. However, in HotS ZvP, the strats that counter turtle toss seem to be way more APM intensive than those that counter turtle Zerg in WoL. I don't really see how someone with lower APM than masters level can hope for a fair fight. Sure, a plat toss will be slower to max, but he'll get there. What can a plat Zerg realistically do in the meantime? No plat guy can use hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively without penalizing his macro heavily.
I can't speak for blade, but I play at mid-high master level on NA server. My average APM is 240 I believe, often spiking much higher during battles. I don't spam whatsoever, so my APM is very low in the beginning, so my actual during combat is probably closer to 280ish, with spikes of 300+.
With that said, I still find that style of play very difficult. It is effective for sure, just watch some of Blade's replays, but I still struggle with it at times. You have to be very active with your swarmhosts, babysitting them constantly, as it is pretty easy to lose all of them. Throw that in with the viper micro, and I personally would say that this is not a strategy for new players.
Still, I don't feel like I have ever failed this playstyle due to my APM. In my honest opinion, my APM is high enough that it will never be what's holding me back, even if I were playing professionally. It's my own stupidity, poor decision making, and lack of attentiveness that causes my failures. I would say if you have 100+ APM and you use it well, you can pull off this playstyle. I just need to get used to it and practice this new playstyle, as it is very different from WoL zerg.
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On April 01 2013 18:05 shadymmj wrote:
Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
you havent actually tested this, havent you? hydras get raped by carriers even if carriers are 2/0 and hydras 3/3.
test it...it is laughable how insanely hard hydras get destroyed even with this huge upgrade advantage, oncreep and on open space. try this offcreep and with space carriers can hide and P wont lose anything literally. but even in a perfect scenario carriers rape hydras so hard. btw your test of "just a-move hydras and let them kill interceptors"....oncreep 45 hydras vs 15 carrier....12 carrier survive lol.
--> you need corruptor and especially you need infestor to fungal interceptor or you will lose horribly.
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No, you don't need corruptors. The unit composition blade suggested works well. For one, you can find plenty of replays on it already, but I can personally vouch for it. Yes, I even admitted to having problems with it sometimes, but it can, and certainly does, work well.
You have to abuse the immobility of the carriers. They are slow. Sure, if you a-move into it, you lose. So here is what you need to do: Don't a-move into a massive ball of carriers. Use vipers to pick one or two out and kill it, then fall back. Pick another one or two out, kill it, then fall back. Rinse and repeat until you receive a gg.
Also, if they have 15 carriers, they aren't going to have a ground army, which is why it's repeatedly been said to get some lings, ultra, and swarmhosts. Abuse the protoss's lack of mobility and lack of a ground army and you'll be just fine. Carriers =/= instant win.
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On April 01 2013 19:09 roadrunner343 wrote:
No, you don't need corruptors. The unit composition blade suggested works well. For one, you can find plenty of replays on it already, but I can personally vouch for it. Yes, I even admitted to having problems with it sometimes, but it can, and certainly does, work well.
You have to abuse the immobility of the carriers. They are slow. Sure, if you a-move into it, you lose. So here is what you need to do: Don't a-move into a massive ball of carriers. Use vipers to pick one or two out and kill it, then fall back. Pick another one or two out, kill it, then fall back. Rinse and repeat until you receive a gg.
Also, if they have 15 carriers, they aren't going to have a ground army, which is why it's repeatedly been said to get some lings, ultra, and swarmhosts. Abuse the protoss's lack of mobility and lack of a ground army and you'll be just fine. Carriers =/= instant win.
this was a test to simply show to the guy that suggested just a-move hydras and kill interceptors doesnt work...at all!
in a real game i suggested going blades comp vs VRs and once he adds carrier you should add infestors, queens and corruptors instead of hydra + viper. thats what i said. and no there arent any replays because blade simply kills his opponents before they get carriers ^^
basically all i was saying is blades comp works very nice but since carrier are able to kill viper before they can get in range to abduct and hydras are horrible vs carrier you need something else than his comp vs carrierheavy compositions. not more and not less.
oh and to your immobility argument: carriers are way faster than SHs and they can fly so can abuse terrain.
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My bad on the misenterpretation of your post. At least we can both agree that a-moving isn't the way to beat skytoss.
Still, my mobility point stands. Obviously comparing SH to Carriers is silly, we're comparing the entire army here. Your swarmhosts won't be attacking the carriers anyways. Your hydras + vipers + ultra + lings will have far more mobility and you will be able to pick the Protoss apart. Use the lings for runbys and the swarmhosts to attack bases/ground army, and retreat to safety behind your army if need be. The zerg army as a whole will be far more mobile than an army of 15 carriers.
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It's pretty tough to deal with and I think void rays are going to receive a slight nerf in an upcoming patch, but, as others have said, Ultras to chase off Templar/Colossi (with some support from 8-12 swarm hosts) plus hydra-viper to actually kill the air army works quite well. You don't have to win overwhelmingly or anything either, if you mutually annihilate each others armies, a roach-hydra remax (you'll almost always be able to keep some vipers and swarm hosts alive) will roll over the Toss, unless he has 20+ Stargates  .
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EPT
