Before HOTS, carriers weren't much of an issue against infestor/corruptor composition as you can fungal the carriers, use corruption and focus fire one by one to take them out.
With the voidrays being so potent in HOTS, going corruptors is pretty much impossible now.
Previously, in a game I played, I tried to handle it by using vipers/hydras in a guerilla warfare like style, pulling and picking the carriers off one by one until my opponent only has a handful number of carriers left. This hasn't been working out so well as my vipers gets in range of the interceptors, so by the time I'm done pulling maybe 4 carriers, I would've lost all my 6 vipers. The situation gets worse if the opponent mixes in high templars to feedback my vipers.
So I'd like to get everyone's input about the practical strategies used to counter carrier/voidray late-late game composition. Some examples from professional players would be nice.
I understand that a better way of handling this would be: Don't let the opponent get that. For the sake of argument, let's just assume that the opponent was able to amass voidrays/carriers somehow because he/she was more awesome than JD/Flash/Life/Parting/MVP combined.
Mass overseer to contaminate all the Stargates duh! Noob, L2Zerg.
Seriously though... As a Protoss player, the best tactics I've seen against this mass Void/Carrier strategy is a combination of aggressive Corrupter use (rushing in and sniping carriers/voids as they spawn from SG's when they're most likely to be exposed), best time is obviously pre critical mass, as you can generally over commit to corrupters with a fast spire and hit them as they're turtling, especially since most Protoss players going for that 100% air rely on defense defense defense and don't harass much. And using Vipers to pull out units one by one pre-engagement to buy time and to whittle down forces, rather than relying on many pulls mid-engagement, but it seems you've not been having the best time with that tactic (perhaps trying to flank with corrupters to draw away interceptor fire? or some other such crafty tactic to get you Vipers in range?). Hydras do an ok job against Voids, but with upgrades and some micro the +2 base armor on the Carriers, plus their raw DPS is enough to make them trade pretty well with the Hydras in a head on fight (not to mention that by the time Protoss takes an engagement he probably has 2/3 Colossi and/or storm support which both WRECK Hydras). I've never faced it, and I've never seen it pulled off really well, but Queen's might just be the key to making the AA of Zerg work. Like I said though, I've never actually seen that done properly or to a great enough measure to counter the Protoss.
Tempests will really mess with all of this IMO because if the Protoss is able to get a money amount of them up they will zone out absolutely any hope of whittling away the fleet with Viper/Corrupter/Queen/Hydra. At that point in the game though maybe a complaint about balance, a QQ to Blizzard to reintroduce Scourge, and a gg are all you can do :/
Also trying to win without ever fighting them head on has worked in my experience. I.e. mass harass (lings, mutas, and sometimes Nydus) and mass expanding as you will need a mega-economy to trade multiple times with Protoss lategame as Void/Carrier and even better, later comps are insanely cost-effective against just about anything Zerg has even in a super Zerg favored engagement. However, Protoss' ability to turtle extremely hard with cannon walls is pretty strong in the hands of a smart player. Maybe some super smart Zergs (looking at you Leenock) will find a money number of Swarm Hosts/Broodlords to siege the Protoss with at different locations to try and weaken them without taking up too much supply from the all-important AA force and drone count. Theory crafting a bit here, but I think maybe a few (7-10?) banelings to bust cannons/walls with ling/Locust surprise attacks would be really effective, especially since on most maps these days past 3 bases you open up 2-3 more attack paths with every base you take and the Protoss can't have his cost efficient mega fleet everywhere at once.
IMO, it definitely feels like the Zerg has to straight up out-play the Protoss in this situation. :/ Which is unfortunate because it's definitely possible to get yourself into this situation while still outplaying them all game long in some cases, then still lose to the Protoss' megadeathball.
I don't know of any HotS pro-level games that are worth looking at, maybe some WhiteRa VODs on Husky's channel lol? Give it a month or two and I bet we'll start to see Voids/Carriers as often as we saw BLs in WoL at the end, so basically any PvZ longer than 12 minutes.
Skytoss right now just reminds me of Dragonball Z: Bad guy (Zerg) let's Goku rage and charge up for 5 episodes unharrassed while monologuing, then Goku goes Super Saiyan N+1 (where N is the level attained previous final battle) and/or charges a Spirit Bomb for 12 episodes and destroys the bad guy. Why didn't the bad guy just keep fighting while they had Goku doing nothing?!?!?!
Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
I have found this out today, my mass Hydra doesn't really work all the time, must have been lucky before. So yeah, my previous post should be disregarded.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
agree if he doesnt have carrier. if he has carrier and immortals vs ultras it gets insanely hard and i have yet to see a pro game where Z wins vs that comp. i know you got a lot of replays vs mass voidray but do you have any vs comps with say 7 carriers or so? would really like to see that.
just did a little test with 21 hydras vs 7 carrier. a-move carrier and focus fire with hydras on creep. 5 carriers survived ^^ like i said hydras are so terrible overall and especially vs carrier. i dont know why P player go VR only then VR + carrier is so incredibly much stronger.
gets a bit better but not much then viper abduct first. and this is without HT or viper focusfire from carrier ^^. i know its just a test but my point stands: with carrier involved hydras start to suck even more! ^^
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
agree if he doesnt have carrier. if he has carrier and immortals vs ultras it gets insanely hard and i have yet to see a pro game where Z wins vs that comp. i know you got a lot of replays vs mass voidray but do you have any vs comps with say 7 carriers or so? would really like to see that.
just did a little test with 21 hydras vs 7 carrier. a-move carrier and focus fire with hydras on creep. 5 carriers survived ^^ like i said hydras are so terrible overall and especially vs carrier. i dont know why P player go VR only then VR + carrier is so incredibly much stronger.
These tests are kind of meaningless because that is not a real battle that would ever occur.
I think Blade is kind of right, the composition he stated is probably the best but it requires a lot of patience and micro so maybe not easy peesy =)
Also, any kind of roach push around 10:00 will really delay a toss going skytoss. In some instances you can even snipe the nexus/cybercore/ kill 10+ workers which really sets the toss back. You can then expand to your 4th and trade with the toss to burn their gas on sentries.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
agree if he doesnt have carrier. if he has carrier and immortals vs ultras it gets insanely hard and i have yet to see a pro game where Z wins vs that comp. i know you got a lot of replays vs mass voidray but do you have any vs comps with say 7 carriers or so? would really like to see that.
just did a little test with 21 hydras vs 7 carrier. a-move carrier and focus fire with hydras on creep. 5 carriers survived ^^ like i said hydras are so terrible overall and especially vs carrier. i dont know why P player go VR only then VR + carrier is so incredibly much stronger.
gets a bit better but not much then viper abduct first. and this is without HT or viper focusfire from carrier ^^. i know its just a test but my point stands: with carrier involved hydras start to suck even more! ^^
So, you are comparing a Carrier worth 450/250 vs 3 Hydra's worth 300/150 and the Carriers win? That's just outragous! I do note that the carrier and the three hydra's have the same supply count of 6, so in a maxed out scenario, it should be kinda tough for the Zerg.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
agree if he doesnt have carrier. if he has carrier and immortals vs ultras it gets insanely hard and i have yet to see a pro game where Z wins vs that comp. i know you got a lot of replays vs mass voidray but do you have any vs comps with say 7 carriers or so? would really like to see that.
just did a little test with 21 hydras vs 7 carrier. a-move carrier and focus fire with hydras on creep. 5 carriers survived ^^ like i said hydras are so terrible overall and especially vs carrier. i dont know why P player go VR only then VR + carrier is so incredibly much stronger.
gets a bit better but not much then viper abduct first. and this is without HT or viper focusfire from carrier ^^. i know its just a test but my point stands: with carrier involved hydras start to suck even more! ^^
So, you are comparing a Carrier worth 450/250 vs 3 Hydra's worth 300/150 and the Carriers win? That's just outragous! I do note that the carrier and the three hydra's have the same supply count of 6, so in a maxed out scenario, it should be kinda tough for the Zerg.
so its about supply in lategame yet you come with cost? i never cried about carriers winning, i just said hydras suck hardcore vs them and HT immo carrier voidray + some support like archons or colossus is close to unbeatable if not unbeatable.
blades unit comp is pretty good vs non-carrier builds though. but with 6-8 of them involved...well dont go hydras ^^
5 gas bases + MASS infestor (spend literally all your gas on infestors) is the only real answer. Spam fungal everywhere to get rid of all the interceptors and prevent the void rays from ever getting in range to attack anything.
This doesn't really work once Protoss gets HT but even on 3 bases you don't have enough gas to get VR/Carrier/HT and upgrades. Against the most common 3 base turtle into VR/Carrier it works just fine.
I know that this isn't the answer you want to hear and requested that no one answer this way, but you truly cannot let protoss get to that point. Its a fact. In general, Protoss has the strongest units but it takes them longer to obtain them. Obviously if you let them get to the point where they have an army consisting of their top 5 strongest units (void rays, carriers, colossus, archons, hts...maybe tempests), you're not going to stand much of a chance unless you can out-micro them by a gigannntic margin which in most cases won't be possible unless you're playing someone way below your skill level. A top tier, maxed out Protoss army is going to be stronger than all other compositions. Thats the nature of Protoss. To capitalize on their weakness, you must harass them while they try to obtain this master composition and punish them early before its out so that your macro advantage can outweigh their unit composition advantage when the time comes for the main battle. Maybe you don't win the initial engagement but your ability to reinforce your army should be what allows you to win the second or third time around (especially the way zerg works, being able to instantly remax vs a half maxed Protoss army after the initial battle) You definitely have to rely on having a stronger economy and not letting the Protoss player freely expand and build an economy superior to yours. I don't see many other feasible ways to take that Protoss composition on and expect to win the battle and be able to continue to push and win the game.
There is a critical mass that you can't beat. Hydras don't live long enough, corruptors get owned by void rays, queens are clumsy and slow off creep, spores are nice but have to be on creep and by the time you finish chaining enough fungals together to do some damage your support is gone and everything escapes with 1 health left.
So yes there is a point where you just can't kill airtoss. But airtoss is slow moving and can't really risk moving around a lot before they reach that critical mass. It's also extremely expensive. What's stopping the zerg from taking 4 bases and researching drop? I think there is a pretty big timing window for the zerg to do terrible terrible damage.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
With all due respect Mr. Blade, I'm having a rather difficult time accepting that simply going hydra/viper will easily win you the game against Carrier/Voidray composition. As you correctly noted, mixing in high templars makes it harder to play for Zerg because vipers can be easily feedbacked but just to reduce the scope of the variables here, let's just assume that we're dealing with mass carriers/voidrays.
If you could, I'd like to ask you to provide some details on how you would personally deal against the forementioned composition. At least from my own games against GM level players this seemed very difficult to deal with because carriers simply have much higher dps than Hydras and trying to pull few carriers will get your vipers killed, which then the rest of the protoss air just marches in and kills your army.
I personally came with only one conclusion about this matter: you should exploit the mobility of the protoss air army. Indeed, I have tried to mix in nydus worms to hit toss's natural while he is marching towards my base but this strategy also comes with several deficiencies in my opinion: 1)Mothership core can recall the army to defend asap when needed and 2)At the end of the day, you still have the deathball to deal with.
I don't believe this is unbeatable, but I'm inclined to think that you should be severely ahead than protoss in terms of bases and resources banked in order to be able to deal with it properly.
fungal vs interceptors seems like the only thing really works head on vs void ray carrier fleet right now as it dramatically decreases the DPS output of the skytoss fleet so hydras may have a chance. mutas and hydras suck cuz they dont have enough HP, vipers help a bit when the carrier count is low but the new carrier leash range thingy allows a good protoss with a big enough fleet to pick off vipers from a mile away(launch interceptors at hydras in 8 range and any viper within 14 range is vulnerable to focus fire). good concave is important as well, it gives more surface area to a hydra based zerg army so they can focus down carriers and not shoot at interceptors The only solid thing i can think of for a late game zerg to win vs skytoss is mobility play, try and mix in ultra/ling to both harass(skytoss is slow and vulnerable to that) and take out templars in a fight. nydus worms can be useful(you can build multiple worms at once with multiple nydus networks and their costs shouldnt really be a problem in the late game) in catching skytoss fleets out of position. skytoss army is extremely gas intensive and expensive to replace so constant harassment followed by a 300 food push may work. force a fight somewhere far away from your own bases so as the skytoss fleet is slowly flying to counter attack you can replace with whatever unit you feel appropriate after damaging the fleet in the first fight one more thing, good overlord spread/burrow ling placement for spotting is very important. I myself have great success vs zergs with stargate openings that scared away overlords with a mid game involving diversionary gateway forces running around the map while the fleet sneaks behind expansions and snipes it with charged void rays then recall out. the thing about skytoss is its a flying deathball that can attack from whatever angles they want. zerg needs be the one determining where and when to fight so my general advice will be aggressive mobility play dont forget upgrades too, each armor reduces carrier attack damage substantially(each interceptor attack twice so armor is reduced two times). perhaps deny enemy upgrades with speed overseers contaminate will work?
I see a lot of people here saying you can't allow Protoss to get there. The question is: how do you do that?
I mean, in WoL, when Z had the stronger lategame composition, Protoss had the advantage of faster tech allowing him a lot of deadly 2/3 base pushes with immortal/colossi respectively.
What does Zerg have to disturb the protoss? Protoss now is in better tech from start to finish. How do you do damage to a turtling protoss?
Also, this seems very unfair balance in lower leagues. While in WoL protoss had a pretty good chance of preventing infestor/broodlord by simply macroing 3 bases and a-moving a colossus deathball, the same can't be said here. Zerg requires insane APM to put pressure on protoss because he never gets this intermediate timing when he can just a-move and crush before skytoss deathball.
Hyrda viper is really the only thing that has come close to beating me as a skytoss player, but then you would really have to be careful of ht, carrier and tempest snipes. If you can delay their third and stave off any potential harrassment, then I'd say you're in a good spot, which means roaches to snipe the third and stop any +1 4 gates that are really fun to do hydra swarm host can work decently well, but I've heard that takes a lot of gas. Overall, I would say make delaying their third and fourth bases as much as possible your top priority, since skytoss takes a ton of gas and keep up with those upgrades! I know we get to chrono ours, but attacking with 0/0 corruptors is just not going to work.
Void rays seem to be countered pretty easily with upgraded mutas. Considering how much cheaper mutas are, they trade pretty well. I understand infestors have been nerfed, but infested terrans are still pretty good vs fungaled void rays combined with mutas which do bounce damage and take forever and a day to be killed with void rays. I've seen several pro games where ~12 charged void rays (3000 mins, 1800 gas 48 supply) get LOLd by ~20 mutas (2000 min, 2000 gas, 40 supply). Carriers can then be finished off with corrupters and fungal the interceptors going in.
If the protoss is smart and adds HT, it gets really gross watching zerg try to engage that. It's funny that HT were never used vs Zerg in WoL and now without any HT buff, it's such a scary unit to deal with.
To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it.
I've never seen a game where Zerg went Hydra/Viper and beat mass carrier (6+) with voids and HT and won without the protoss massively fucking up the engagement. If for some reason the protoss sits on their army and allows you to slowly pull away 1-2 units at a time and kill them, you can do it. However people are figuring this out and just A-moving their ball over yours with time warp and it's instant GG. I'd love to see a replay of anyone beating 6+ Carriers, voidrays and HT vs any Zerg army where the protoss actually used time warp/feedback and had at least decent control. I still to this day have not seen it work unless the protoss colossally fucks up their control or does not use their abilities well. If anyone out there actually has a replay of a protoss hitting money time warps, storms and feedbacks (aka playing well) while also using solid positioning but still losing, I'd pay to see it.
On April 01 2013 06:13 Mr. Nefarious wrote: I've never seen a game where Zerg went Hydra/Viper and beat mass carrier (6+) with voids and HT and won without the protoss massively fucking up the engagement. If for some reason the protoss sits on their army and allows you to slowly pull away 1-2 units at a time and kill them, you can do it. However people are figuring this out and just A-moving their ball over yours with time warp and it's instant GG. I'd love to see a replay of anyone beating 6+ Carriers, voidrays and HT vs any Zerg army where the protoss actually used time warp/feedback and had at least decent control. I still to this day have not seen it work unless the protoss colossally fucks up their control or does not use their abilities well. If anyone out there actually has a replay of a protoss hitting money time warps, storms and feedbacks (aka playing well) while also using solid positioning but still losing, I'd pay to see it.
You have to realize the weakness of mass air + only templar support.
Swarmhosts/ultras will kill the templar and they won't be able to feedback/storm when their dead. Carriers/voids don't kill ultra and swarmhost locusts fast enough so you clear the templar then abduct and get an easy win.
You can always go the route of taking the whole map, making 70 mutalisks and 300 spore crawlers, and base trading the Protoss, if they start making phoenixes just add some corruptors to your muta flock to chase them off
vs non-carrier builds use blades composition (i like more queens than hydras but thats a personal thing, if you have the gas, why not).
once carrier are involved which can kill your viper before abducting in a cost efficient way you need queens, corruptors and infestors with 15-20 SHs and spores. stop building viper and hydras at that point. 2 queens and 1 infestor is the same supply and pretty much same cost as 3 hydras and vs carriers involved the queen infestor (fungal interceptors is huge) corruptor comp deals far better with them than viper hydra.
On April 01 2013 06:28 Xequecal wrote: You can always go the route of taking the whole map, making 70 mutalisks and 300 spore crawlers, and base trading the Protoss, if they start making phoenixes just add some corruptors to your muta flock to chase them off
if this is not a troll: HT, carrier and cannons rape mutas...so you dont want to do this even if you could support 70 mutas and 300 spores ^^
On April 01 2013 06:11 blade55555 wrote: To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it.
Blade, I've seen a lot of vids from your stream during and after the BETA and I know you have pretty high APM. The question I'd like to ask you is this: do you think a lower APM Zerg can play hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively?
If we compare this to WoL PvZ, the standard way for a P to play was to push with colossi before broodlord tech. This is something a plat player can do, even if he lacks the APM to add warp prism/DT harass into the mix.
However, in HotS ZvP, the strats that counter turtle toss seem to be way more APM intensive than those that counter turtle Zerg in WoL. I don't really see how someone with lower APM than masters level can hope for a fair fight. Sure, a plat toss will be slower to max, but he'll get there. What can a plat Zerg realistically do in the meantime? No plat guy can use hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively without penalizing his macro heavily.
On April 01 2013 06:29 Decendos wrote: if this is not a troll: HT, carrier and cannons rape mutas...so you dont want to do this even if you could support 70 mutas and 300 spores ^^
Yes, I know carriers rape mutas. That's why you wait for them to move out, and base trade him when his carriers aren't in his base. Cannons are not effective against large muta swarms, and the spore crawlers are just there to slow his air army down and ensure you kill his base faster than he can kill yours.
On April 01 2013 06:29 Decendos wrote: if this is not a troll: HT, carrier and cannons rape mutas...so you dont want to do this even if you could support 70 mutas and 300 spores ^^
Yes, I know carriers rape mutas. That's why you wait for them to move out, and base trade him when his carriers aren't in his base. Cannons are not effective against large muta swarms, and the spore crawlers are just there to slow his air army down and ensure you kill his base faster than he can kill yours.
10 cannons + 2 HT per base deal with 70 mutas very easily or stall long enough for the carriers to arrive. also he has recall. and carrier range covers at least 3 bases. just dont do that style you mentioned he even can attack with half his carrier and keep half at home if he sees you only have mutas
In a unit tester I've found that if you have an upgrade advantage then you can beat maxed out carrier void ray with maxed out corruptor. Unfortunately this was in WoL and I don't know how things were changed in HOTS
Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
On April 01 2013 06:11 blade55555 wrote: To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it.
Blade, I've seen a lot of vids from your stream during and after the BETA and I know you have pretty high APM. The question I'd like to ask you is this: do you think a lower APM Zerg can play hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively?
If we compare this to WoL PvZ, the standard way for a P to play was to push with colossi before broodlord tech. This is something a plat player can do, even if he lacks the APM to add warp prism/DT harass into the mix.
However, in HotS ZvP, the strats that counter turtle toss seem to be way more APM intensive than those that counter turtle Zerg in WoL. I don't really see how someone with lower APM than masters level can hope for a fair fight. Sure, a plat toss will be slower to max, but he'll get there. What can a plat Zerg realistically do in the meantime? No plat guy can use hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively without penalizing his macro heavily.
I can't speak for blade, but I play at mid-high master level on NA server. My average APM is 240 I believe, often spiking much higher during battles. I don't spam whatsoever, so my APM is very low in the beginning, so my actual during combat is probably closer to 280ish, with spikes of 300+.
With that said, I still find that style of play very difficult. It is effective for sure, just watch some of Blade's replays, but I still struggle with it at times. You have to be very active with your swarmhosts, babysitting them constantly, as it is pretty easy to lose all of them. Throw that in with the viper micro, and I personally would say that this is not a strategy for new players.
Still, I don't feel like I have ever failed this playstyle due to my APM. In my honest opinion, my APM is high enough that it will never be what's holding me back, even if I were playing professionally. It's my own stupidity, poor decision making, and lack of attentiveness that causes my failures. I would say if you have 100+ APM and you use it well, you can pull off this playstyle. I just need to get used to it and practice this new playstyle, as it is very different from WoL zerg.
On April 01 2013 18:05 shadymmj wrote: Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
you havent actually tested this, havent you? hydras get raped by carriers even if carriers are 2/0 and hydras 3/3.
test it...it is laughable how insanely hard hydras get destroyed even with this huge upgrade advantage, oncreep and on open space. try this offcreep and with space carriers can hide and P wont lose anything literally. but even in a perfect scenario carriers rape hydras so hard. btw your test of "just a-move hydras and let them kill interceptors"....oncreep 45 hydras vs 15 carrier....12 carrier survive lol.
--> you need corruptor and especially you need infestor to fungal interceptor or you will lose horribly.
No, you don't need corruptors. The unit composition blade suggested works well. For one, you can find plenty of replays on it already, but I can personally vouch for it. Yes, I even admitted to having problems with it sometimes, but it can, and certainly does, work well.
You have to abuse the immobility of the carriers. They are slow. Sure, if you a-move into it, you lose. So here is what you need to do: Don't a-move into a massive ball of carriers. Use vipers to pick one or two out and kill it, then fall back. Pick another one or two out, kill it, then fall back. Rinse and repeat until you receive a gg.
Also, if they have 15 carriers, they aren't going to have a ground army, which is why it's repeatedly been said to get some lings, ultra, and swarmhosts. Abuse the protoss's lack of mobility and lack of a ground army and you'll be just fine. Carriers =/= instant win.
On April 01 2013 19:09 roadrunner343 wrote: No, you don't need corruptors. The unit composition blade suggested works well. For one, you can find plenty of replays on it already, but I can personally vouch for it. Yes, I even admitted to having problems with it sometimes, but it can, and certainly does, work well.
You have to abuse the immobility of the carriers. They are slow. Sure, if you a-move into it, you lose. So here is what you need to do: Don't a-move into a massive ball of carriers. Use vipers to pick one or two out and kill it, then fall back. Pick another one or two out, kill it, then fall back. Rinse and repeat until you receive a gg.
Also, if they have 15 carriers, they aren't going to have a ground army, which is why it's repeatedly been said to get some lings, ultra, and swarmhosts. Abuse the protoss's lack of mobility and lack of a ground army and you'll be just fine. Carriers =/= instant win.
this was a test to simply show to the guy that suggested just a-move hydras and kill interceptors doesnt work...at all!
in a real game i suggested going blades comp vs VRs and once he adds carrier you should add infestors, queens and corruptors instead of hydra + viper. thats what i said. and no there arent any replays because blade simply kills his opponents before they get carriers ^^
basically all i was saying is blades comp works very nice but since carrier are able to kill viper before they can get in range to abduct and hydras are horrible vs carrier you need something else than his comp vs carrierheavy compositions. not more and not less.
oh and to your immobility argument: carriers are way faster than SHs and they can fly so can abuse terrain.
My bad on the misenterpretation of your post. At least we can both agree that a-moving isn't the way to beat skytoss.
Still, my mobility point stands. Obviously comparing SH to Carriers is silly, we're comparing the entire army here. Your swarmhosts won't be attacking the carriers anyways. Your hydras + vipers + ultra + lings will have far more mobility and you will be able to pick the Protoss apart. Use the lings for runbys and the swarmhosts to attack bases/ground army, and retreat to safety behind your army if need be. The zerg army as a whole will be far more mobile than an army of 15 carriers.
It's pretty tough to deal with and I think void rays are going to receive a slight nerf in an upcoming patch, but, as others have said, Ultras to chase off Templar/Colossi (with some support from 8-12 swarm hosts) plus hydra-viper to actually kill the air army works quite well. You don't have to win overwhelmingly or anything either, if you mutually annihilate each others armies, a roach-hydra remax (you'll almost always be able to keep some vipers and swarm hosts alive) will roll over the Toss, unless he has 20+ Stargates .
On April 01 2013 06:11 blade55555 wrote: To beat the sky toss composition you need hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra.
Now if he's not going templar/colossi don't get ultra, just get hydra/viper and 10-12 swarmhosts. If he does templar/colossi add in 3-5 ultra and it'll help a ton!
Abduct and stuff will deal with it just fine and don't make corruptors if he's going mass voidray. If he isn't making many voidrays then you can add in corruptors for it.
Blade, I've seen a lot of vids from your stream during and after the BETA and I know you have pretty high APM. The question I'd like to ask you is this: do you think a lower APM Zerg can play hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively?
If we compare this to WoL PvZ, the standard way for a P to play was to push with colossi before broodlord tech. This is something a plat player can do, even if he lacks the APM to add warp prism/DT harass into the mix.
However, in HotS ZvP, the strats that counter turtle toss seem to be way more APM intensive than those that counter turtle Zerg in WoL. I don't really see how someone with lower APM than masters level can hope for a fair fight. Sure, a plat toss will be slower to max, but he'll get there. What can a plat Zerg realistically do in the meantime? No plat guy can use hydra/swarmhost/viper/ultra effectively without penalizing his macro heavily.
I can't speak for blade, but I play at mid-high master level on NA server. My average APM is 240 I believe, often spiking much higher during battles. I don't spam whatsoever, so my APM is very low in the beginning, so my actual during combat is probably closer to 280ish, with spikes of 300+.
With that said, I still find that style of play very difficult. It is effective for sure, just watch some of Blade's replays, but I still struggle with it at times. You have to be very active with your swarmhosts, babysitting them constantly, as it is pretty easy to lose all of them. Throw that in with the viper micro, and I personally would say that this is not a strategy for new players.
Still, I don't feel like I have ever failed this playstyle due to my APM. In my honest opinion, my APM is high enough that it will never be what's holding me back, even if I were playing professionally. It's my own stupidity, poor decision making, and lack of attentiveness that causes my failures. I would say if you have 100+ APM and you use it well, you can pull off this playstyle. I just need to get used to it and practice this new playstyle, as it is very different from WoL zerg.
Thanks for the answer. The question is: maybe a less skilled player than Blade will actually do better with another style, even if it's not the optimal way to play. So, what non-SH strategy can better deal with skytoss?
i had alot of trouble vs mass cannons,msc into carriers then voidrays. i have been told to not let them get there. and i end up with ur question, how da fuxk? then i was talking to schniederz and watching a game he was playing, then i think i found out where i went wrong with not letting them get there. i was massing units to try to knock that natural base of toss， which u'd know when they have that one sentry maybe two to ff u. cannons n photon nexus n warpin zealots. n maybe 2carriers u'd lose most of ur stuff and proceed to lose. so heres what i think, just camp his (to be) third, without that photon nexuz, mass cannons, u should easily take out watever he tries to bring to the third to fight with with ur hydras while ur mass macro behind this. without that 3rd base gas income it'd take way longer for the airtoss to become invincible. spine up all bases as the most likely thing the toss can do is to spend all that extra mins on zealots multiprong attack on ur bases. by the time the toss can push out to take that third u should be ready to have a huge feat of muta corrupt to keep trading his air units non stop or tons of hydras with infestors to infest terran his third while keeping that toss air feat in low numbers.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Decendos - it's unbeatable with a WoL mindset yes.
As someone who has been avidly following blade since mid-WoL he is absolutely right in his statements in this and his massive post thread.
High(er) APM helps, but that is true of everything in SC2, but the majority problem most zergs have is their mindset. APM can be improved with focused practice. I have increased from 120 to 280 in 5 months purely through streamlining my practice.
Flanking, multi-pronging, better micro, more focus, better strategical decisions are ALL key to defeating skytoss along with the comp blade mentioned AND a fresh mindset. WoL is over, it's time to clear the cobwebs and approach everything in a whole new manner.
On April 01 2013 18:05 shadymmj wrote: Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
you havent actually tested this, havent you? hydras get raped by carriers even if carriers are 2/0 and hydras 3/3.
test it...it is laughable how insanely hard hydras get destroyed even with this huge upgrade advantage, oncreep and on open space. try this offcreep and with space carriers can hide and P wont lose anything literally. but even in a perfect scenario carriers rape hydras so hard. btw your test of "just a-move hydras and let them kill interceptors"....oncreep 45 hydras vs 15 carrier....12 carrier survive lol.
--> you need corruptor and especially you need infestor to fungal interceptor or you will lose horribly.
I have tested this multiple times and assuming you hit them when they have around 10 carriers (trust me, because you shouldn't get to 15), with equal cost, hydras clear out all interceptors with >60% of them remaining alive. 3/3 vs 2/0 as you said. If you doubt me fire up unit tester and put the carriers in space, send the hydras to them and try it. If you manage to beat the hydras come back to me.
That's already giving you a good advantage since we all know that if you're turtling to skytoss I will have 5 bases to your 3.
On April 01 2013 18:05 shadymmj wrote: Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
you havent actually tested this, havent you? hydras get raped by carriers even if carriers are 2/0 and hydras 3/3.
test it...it is laughable how insanely hard hydras get destroyed even with this huge upgrade advantage, oncreep and on open space. try this offcreep and with space carriers can hide and P wont lose anything literally. but even in a perfect scenario carriers rape hydras so hard. btw your test of "just a-move hydras and let them kill interceptors"....oncreep 45 hydras vs 15 carrier....12 carrier survive lol.
--> you need corruptor and especially you need infestor to fungal interceptor or you will lose horribly.
I have tested this multiple times and assuming you hit them when they have around 10 carriers (trust me, because you shouldn't get to 15), with equal cost, hydras clear out all interceptors with >60% of them remaining alive. 3/3 vs 2/0 as you said. If you doubt me fire up unit tester and put the carriers in space, send the hydras to them and try it. If you manage to beat the hydras come back to me.
That's already giving you a good advantage since we all know that if you're turtling to skytoss I will have 5 bases to your 3.
tested this aswell multiple times and hydras beat carriers very hard when having an upgradelead with equal upgrades it is really close, but as already said, who the hell is going double cyber
Yes, of course, bearing in mind that any non retard protoss will get HTs/colo to deal with hydras, so while hydras > skytoss in general, I fully acknowledge that super lategame protoss who has diversified into these units will take a lot more effort to beat. I do not view "skytoss" as the problem, but the overall combination of mega AOE and massive range on everything is super effective on zerg compos (assuming diamond to master level control).
On April 02 2013 08:47 Xorphene wrote: Decendos - it's unbeatable with a WoL mindset yes.
As someone who has been avidly following blade since mid-WoL he is absolutely right in his statements in this and his massive post thread.
High(er) APM helps, but that is true of everything in SC2, but the majority problem most zergs have is their mindset. APM can be improved with focused practice. I have increased from 120 to 280 in 5 months purely through streamlining my practice.
Flanking, multi-pronging, better micro, more focus, better strategical decisions are ALL key to defeating skytoss along with the comp blade mentioned AND a fresh mindset. WoL is over, it's time to clear the cobwebs and approach everything in a whole new manner.
Are you aware that apm has been buggy and unreliable recently? I know I play at around ~120 and I've had games above 300. I'm no Jaedong.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
No good Protoss is going to go pure air without storm. That's part of the god composition - tempest and templar -_- but you can do carrier + templar too or mass void + templar.
I dunno about your swarmhosts...every supply you have invested into swarmhosts is less corruptors/fungal/hydras, doesn't that make it way more difficult to play vs that air? Or are you saying it's worth it for the locusts to hunt down the templar? Because that only works if Protoss is stupid and engages away from their 5000 photon cannons.
Tbh, I don't think Zerg is actually meant to straight up beat skytoss + templar or skyterran + ravens/ghost. Or the best ways involve using your own units like, getting Protoss to storm his own interceptors/air, or microing corruptors with the seeker into the enemies viking/BC clumps.
On April 01 2013 18:05 shadymmj wrote: Blade is right, but even if u dont have the apm to pull that off, hydras will beat carriers easily especially if he has too many VRs. With infestor support of course. AFAIK, getting a bank and clearing out interceptors, then remaxing and pushing for the kill is more effective than chasing down carriers off creep. It also runs less risk of your hydra ball getting stormed.
Oh and just make sure you have 1 level of upgrades (esp. armour) over the toss when you engage...not hard, eh? Wonder how many of them go double cyber at an early time. Carriers absolutely stink when they're at an upgrade disadvantage.
you havent actually tested this, havent you? hydras get raped by carriers even if carriers are 2/0 and hydras 3/3.
test it...it is laughable how insanely hard hydras get destroyed even with this huge upgrade advantage, oncreep and on open space. try this offcreep and with space carriers can hide and P wont lose anything literally. but even in a perfect scenario carriers rape hydras so hard. btw your test of "just a-move hydras and let them kill interceptors"....oncreep 45 hydras vs 15 carrier....12 carrier survive lol.
--> you need corruptor and especially you need infestor to fungal interceptor or you will lose horribly.
I have tested this multiple times and assuming you hit them when they have around 10 carriers (trust me, because you shouldn't get to 15), with equal cost, hydras clear out all interceptors with >60% of them remaining alive. 3/3 vs 2/0 as you said. If you doubt me fire up unit tester and put the carriers in space, send the hydras to them and try it. If you manage to beat the hydras come back to me.
That's already giving you a good advantage since we all know that if you're turtling to skytoss I will have 5 bases to your 3.
tested this aswell multiple times and hydras beat carriers very hard when having an upgradelead with equal upgrades it is really close, but as already said, who the hell is going double cyber
why do you test it with equal cost? what matters is supply in lategame. if hydras were 1,5 or even 1 supply with same costs...well yes you could use them to fight lategame. but on equal supply they lose horribly...like omg do they lose hardcore vs carrier. and that is with 2/0 vs 3/3 and no storms, cannons etc. P just wont attack until they are maxed out...why should they? so you would have to fight offcreep and attack into cannons, storm and 10 carriers with your army....hf ^^
and btw i never said anything about ZvP being imba or something. ZvT is a bit T favored right now, thats it. ZvP isnt imba overall in HOTS...it also wasnt imba in WoL...its just that in WoL sentry immo and BL infestor was broken...overall it was about 50% winrate....but still a stupid MU. in HOTS ZvP is much much better and more fun for both sides. still its bad for the game if one lategame army is unbeatable for the other race because that means the race with the unbeatable lategame army will just turtle to get that army which leads to insanely boring games and an imbalanaced lategame. so yeah even blade said and avilo says this too: dont let T/P get to that army and kill or at least hurt him a lot before.
oh and i even believe that you can beat a mass carrier + support army...you just have to go SH infestor corruptor queen with lots and lots of spores while taking all bases possible. its just that hydras are bad, thats all i said basically but some people dont want to read that it seems ^^
what i believe is that a raven BC viking + support army is unbeatable since T really is able to go pure air and Z has no antispellcaster in ZvT (SH and ultras are the "antispellcaster" in ZvP...but ravens fly so... )
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
I don't know whether hydra/viper will do it alone, but what I have seen zergs do is fortifying an area in front of the protoss base by adding tons of sporecrawlers. And if the protoss is careless, you can (chain)pull single carriers over the spores, where you can engage more easily.
edit: one crucial step is obviously scouting the build early, so you won't dump too many resources in units which will be useless in the lategame engagement.
The Protoss will not move out for quit some time, since he needs lots of these units before even thinking of attacking. So you can take lots of bases and go heavy on upgrades.
You don't want to take a full battle, but take these costly units out one by one, using "Vipers", "Corrupters" with "Hydralisks" and "Lings" being your part of the composition. Eventually the Protoss will have a much vurnerable army, so you can take a bigger fight, since it costs quit some time for him to get these important units back.
I think playing ZvP lategame is all about being patient, and making the right decisions. TLO did this in a replay analysed by Husky. You might want to take a look at that game on his channel, it was on Newkirk against Instict.
I can also say that I am a Protoss player that is also comfortable playing the other races, so I can tell you this from my own experience. I have been trying to take full fights each time as a Zerg, or playing with other compositions. One disavantage that might appear during this air/hydra/ling heavy composition, is overmaking corrupters, or having to much corrupters in the end when taking out his air. Transitioning to 4-6 broodlords isn't an option I think, since the Protoss will probably stay air, but I haven't tested that out yet.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
No good Protoss is going to go pure air without storm. That's part of the god composition - tempest and templar -_- but you can do carrier + templar too or mass void + templar.
I dunno about your swarmhosts...every supply you have invested into swarmhosts is less corruptors/fungal/hydras, doesn't that make it way more difficult to play vs that air? Or are you saying it's worth it for the locusts to hunt down the templar? Because that only works if Protoss is stupid and engages away from their 5000 photon cannons.
Tbh, I don't think Zerg is actually meant to straight up beat skytoss + templar or skyterran + ravens/ghost. Or the best ways involve using your own units like, getting Protoss to storm his own interceptors/air, or microing corruptors with the seeker into the enemies viking/BC clumps.
To be honest I would know because I beat protoss players who go templar/tempest/voidray or pure voidray/templar. It's not hard at all. Seriously you have no idea ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper SMASHES templar/voidray.
Honestly the stronger composition is quiet a few voids, but with a good ground support as well (so not pure sky toss + templar). Pure sky toss + templar is very easily countered by the composition I have said many times, ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper does such a good job.
You will lose the fight but you will maintain all your swarmhosts, some ultra but you will lose all your hydras (he will have to many voids), but the remax of hydra will beat it then you win.
Also tempest/templar is even easier to beat in a straight up fight then voidray/templar. Honestly I don't think tempests are very good in pvz if zerg goes ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper and voidrays are the better answer.
For anyone who wants to see replays of me killing a protoss deathball as I have said look at the replay pack here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=404915
It is all from the korean server and has quiet a few games to show case it as well as me beating a korean GM toss who gets that mass voidray/colo/templar deathball while getting 5 bases. To know I renamed that replay "GM toss" and I can't remember what else, but if you see a replay named GM toss in there that's the one you want to watch.
There is also a game of me vs a guy named EXID on daybreak, he gets 5-7 carriers with templar support (or colossi one of the 2) and I beat it with hydra/sh/ultra/viper.
My next youtube video will be going over me beating the late game protoss army. I will probably end up doing a few in a row to show case this for anyone curious.
I had a Toss get to sky against me ..... Impossible to fight when it get to that stage ...
I re-maxed on hydra 3-3 and viper , didn't work I re- maxed hydra viper investor , fungaled all interceptors , still didn't work. I re-maxed pure corruptor .... Void ray + storm .... So yeh didn't work. (Even caught a load of HT's with a swift group of lings , didn't matter)
I was microing my ass off , splitting , conclaves , blah blah , didn't matter at all , he literally just a-move , stim voids , storm when required .... Not a thing I could do .
Also , due to this comp being SO amazingly cost efficient against Zerg , they rly can just cannon up like crazy on bases and chokes due to thier mins stacking.
I rarely whine , but honestly .... I mean BL infest core was powerful in WoL , but with blink stalker , archon , vortex , void or carrier switch , it was killable . Zerg cannot do anything at all , I fight this army ....
I just don let them have any peace now , just trying to harass as much as possible , coz ill never wanna have to fight that again....
I re-maxed around 3-4 times overall , and didn't take more than half the sky out .... Painful.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
No good Protoss is going to go pure air without storm. That's part of the god composition - tempest and templar -_- but you can do carrier + templar too or mass void + templar.
I dunno about your swarmhosts...every supply you have invested into swarmhosts is less corruptors/fungal/hydras, doesn't that make it way more difficult to play vs that air? Or are you saying it's worth it for the locusts to hunt down the templar? Because that only works if Protoss is stupid and engages away from their 5000 photon cannons.
Tbh, I don't think Zerg is actually meant to straight up beat skytoss + templar or skyterran + ravens/ghost. Or the best ways involve using your own units like, getting Protoss to storm his own interceptors/air, or microing corruptors with the seeker into the enemies viking/BC clumps.
To be honest I would know because I beat protoss players who go templar/tempest/voidray or pure voidray/templar. It's not hard at all. Seriously you have no idea ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper SMASHES templar/voidray.
Honestly the stronger composition is quiet a few voids, but with a good ground support as well (so not pure sky toss + templar). Pure sky toss + templar is very easily countered by the composition I have said many times, ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper does such a good job.
You will lose the fight but you will maintain all your swarmhosts, some ultra but you will lose all your hydras (he will have to many voids), but the remax of hydra will beat it then you win.
Also tempest/templar is even easier to beat in a straight up fight then voidray/templar. Honestly I don't think tempests are very good in pvz if zerg goes ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper and voidrays are the better answer.
For anyone who wants to see replays of me killing a protoss deathball as I have said look at the replay pack here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=404915
It is all from the korean server and has quiet a few games to show case it as well as me beating a korean GM toss who gets that mass voidray/colo/templar deathball while getting 5 bases. To know I renamed that replay "GM toss" and I can't remember what else, but if you see a replay named GM toss in there that's the one you want to watch.
There is also a game of me vs a guy named EXID on daybreak, he gets 5-7 carriers with templar support (or colossi one of the 2) and I beat it with hydra/sh/ultra/viper.
My next youtube video will be going over me beating the late game protoss army. I will probably end up doing a few in a row to show case this for anyone curious.
watched the replay vs EXID: basically what i thought happened. you killed him before he could get his deathball. once the carriers arrived he never went over 120 supply and even there your hydras got smashed 3 fights until you finally got him down. if he had 200 supply he wouldve rolled over you. so basically you have to kill him before he gets 150+ supply because otherwise hydra + viper doesnt work and you will need corruptor, queen infestor to support your SHs. which is no problem to techswitch to but you will have to.
i think it will take time for P to play against SHs and best thing for them will be to turtle very hard with lots of cannons and doing multipronged WP harrass until they have huge skytoss army with lots of carriers or to just all in with things like blinkstalker etc.
To be honest I would know because I beat protoss players who go templar/tempest/voidray or pure voidray/templar. It's not hard at all.
Blade, I think when you refer to not being hard, you have a different meaning for the word "hard" in mind from most people posting here. What you mean is you have found a composition / play style that crushes skytoss.
However, what many people are referring to here is that the style you are using is extremely hard to pull off for a lesser player. I mean, I've seen your vids and you refer yourself to many aspects of what makes it so hard, for example, how easily you can lose all your SH if don't nurture them all the time.
So the thing is: it becomes easy if you have the multitasking, map awareness, game knowledge and decision making of Blade.
This is why I believe skytoss is mainly a concern for the lower leagues. Plat/diam players don't have the APM to do much more than good macro. You don't need more than that to build a skytoss army. You need a lot more than that to play your SH/hydra/viper/ultra style with constant pressure and 5 vs 3 bases.
To be honest I would know because I beat protoss players who go templar/tempest/voidray or pure voidray/templar. It's not hard at all.
Blade, I think when you refer to not being hard, you have a different meaning for the word "hard" in mind from most people posting here. What you mean is you have found a composition / play style that crushes skytoss.
However, what many people are referring to here is that the style you are using is extremely hard to pull off for a lesser player. I mean, I've seen your vids and you refer yourself to many aspects of what makes it so hard, for example, how easily you can lose all your SH if don't nurture them all the time.
So the thing is: it becomes easy if you have the multitasking, map awareness, game knowledge and decision making of Blade.
This is why I believe skytoss is mainly a concern for the lower leagues. Plat/diam players don't have the APM to do much more than good macro. You don't need more than that to build a skytoss army. You need a lot more than that to play your SH/hydra/viper/ultra style with constant pressure and 5 vs 3 bases.
Well a lower league Protoss player would also have a different composition as skytoss, and won't micro as good as a higher league player, which kind of is the answer to a lower league zerg. Which makes the conclusion simpler: It's not about the league.
Why? Cause even if both the higher league players have all the aspects you wrote in your post, we get to the same story: The composition is really strong lategame. Which I want to refer to my post. Look at TLO's solution. Be more patient and pick off the important units, because they are difficult to replace in a short time period. Which gives you an open window to crush the Protoss player, if you do it well.
Than how can I pick off those units with such an army? Well the viper is your solution. It has enough range to pick off a unit once in a while. So instead of trying to crush a deathball, you are hurting the deathball to make it a lesser deathball.
Like I said: look at my previous post, and check the vod of TLO versus Instict on Newkirch.
I am Top masters Zerg and play all races at top masters level on NA, I have a different play style and openings that I use in ZvP, I play extremely aggressive but opt for a Spire rather than roach hydra openings, it can be risky vs some msc + gateway timings, but early +1 for lings and into early spire can be very useful, if he opens 1 or double stargate which is indicative of skytoss play, i'd open with +1 attack on spire and just get corrupters and then transition into mutalisks,
but if you know hes going to open heavily with stargate play, open heavily with corrupters, because then you will be able to gain the air superiority and will set the toss behind, forcing him to stay on 2 base and pumping out of stargates, or going back into warpgate play to try to get the 3rd, but with speedling, corrupter, mutalisk, you will be able to get a 3rd and maintain air and ground superiority because of the mobility of speedling muta, or speedling corrupter, only go mutalisks if you know he will not be going pheonix, otherwise you will just get really far behind unless you have perfect micro and the timing of your defensive spores are perfect.
If you can time it correctly and open with speedling then into spire and get +1 corrupters when he opens stargates, and then transition into mutalisks once you gain air superiority, to maintain air superiority and gain a huge advantage, if needed sometimes it is possible you will have to throw down a lot of spine crawlers and or add a few swarmhosts once your 3rd is up to not die to some last ditch do or die attack attempt from the toss.
On March 26 2013 22:58 theMarkovian wrote: Against pure Carrier/Voidray? Pure Hydra. Make sure you micro your Hydra's so that they target the Carriers and not the interceptors (which they autotarget iirc). The Prismatic Alignement ability of Voidrays has no effect on Hydra's (does bonus damage on armored), so only the Carriers are scary. But without splash damage, the Hydra have free reign to shred down all the air. I'd vote against Corruptors, because they are so weak to Voidrays, or Vipers, because they are so fragile vs. Carriers.
It becomes more of a problem if the Protoss adds Colossus, as they kill Hydra so well. In that case, add Swarm Hosts and Vipers/Ultra.
hydras are very bad vs carrier and even with voidrays supply wise --> dont go hydras.
right now dealing with mass VR colo HT etc. deathball is doable but once P start adding some immos and carrier into the mix i think it is unbeatable. carrier are such an insanely strong unit if supported properly that Z cant win against a carrier HT immo voidray archon colossus army right now. so yeah, kill him before he gets there or type gg ^^
Uh it's not. If you go swarmhost/hydra/viper/ultra you can deal with it easy peasy lemon squeezy.
If he is going pure air no HT no Colo this is going to be even easier because you can just go hydra/viper and win.
No good Protoss is going to go pure air without storm. That's part of the god composition - tempest and templar -_- but you can do carrier + templar too or mass void + templar.
I dunno about your swarmhosts...every supply you have invested into swarmhosts is less corruptors/fungal/hydras, doesn't that make it way more difficult to play vs that air? Or are you saying it's worth it for the locusts to hunt down the templar? Because that only works if Protoss is stupid and engages away from their 5000 photon cannons.
Tbh, I don't think Zerg is actually meant to straight up beat skytoss + templar or skyterran + ravens/ghost. Or the best ways involve using your own units like, getting Protoss to storm his own interceptors/air, or microing corruptors with the seeker into the enemies viking/BC clumps.
To be honest I would know because I beat protoss players who go templar/tempest/voidray or pure voidray/templar. It's not hard at all. Seriously you have no idea ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper SMASHES templar/voidray.
Honestly the stronger composition is quiet a few voids, but with a good ground support as well (so not pure sky toss + templar). Pure sky toss + templar is very easily countered by the composition I have said many times, ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper does such a good job.
You will lose the fight but you will maintain all your swarmhosts, some ultra but you will lose all your hydras (he will have to many voids), but the remax of hydra will beat it then you win.
Also tempest/templar is even easier to beat in a straight up fight then voidray/templar. Honestly I don't think tempests are very good in pvz if zerg goes ultra/hydra/swarmhost/viper and voidrays are the better answer.
For anyone who wants to see replays of me killing a protoss deathball as I have said look at the replay pack here:http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=404915
It is all from the korean server and has quiet a few games to show case it as well as me beating a korean GM toss who gets that mass voidray/colo/templar deathball while getting 5 bases. To know I renamed that replay "GM toss" and I can't remember what else, but if you see a replay named GM toss in there that's the one you want to watch.
There is also a game of me vs a guy named EXID on daybreak, he gets 5-7 carriers with templar support (or colossi one of the 2) and I beat it with hydra/sh/ultra/viper.
My next youtube video will be going over me beating the late game protoss army. I will probably end up doing a few in a row to show case this for anyone curious.
It's pretty hilarious that you've actually found a way to beat this comp and posted videos of your beating the supposed ultimate comp (against high level competition) and yet there are still people saying that the "ultimate" late game P army is unbeatable. Even so, your finding an apparent solution to the problem has at least taken the wind out of the sails of most of the many vocal balance whiners on TL, who can't wait to declare X, Y and Z composition unbeatable, that HoTS is broken and that Blizzard has no idea what they're doing. Avilo was clearly crestfallen to learn that someone had found an apparent solution to the unbeatable P army and, to add insult to injury, that it involved swarm hosts (since whiners usually maintain that Swarm Hosts are useless unless you mass them).
It doesn't surprise me at all that SHs are a key part of beating HT - mass air comps, given that their effective range is longer than anything in the P deathball. I had a while back speculated that swarm hosts would be part of an eventual solution, if one would be found, so it seems like for once I wasn't too off base with my prediction. In the beta, and probably still now, players seemed to view SHs as something you either commit to completely or don't build at all. Your sucess undermines this sort of "either-or" view of SHs and shows that they can have utility even when not massed.
I saw Stephano do it last night with Lings/Ultras/Infestors/Queens. Cleaned up the ground army easily and the mass voids were eaten by fungals and outranged by Queens
I would give up and wait until Parting switches to zerg and perfects some allin so I wouldn't have to play lategame. I feel kinda dirty playing protoss on the ladder when all zergs play the no rush 20 game, throw their army and then ragequit.
I guess it's not an answer to the question per se, but I think it's critical to be active and not let the void ray count go crazy. I've yet to see anyone beating 200 supply 3/3 void ray with anything else than their own void rays, lol.
edit: Other people already said it better, so I'll leave it at that.
EPT
hydra swarm host can work decently well, but I've heard that takes a lot of gas. Overall, I would say make delaying their third and fourth bases as much as possible your top priority, since skytoss takes a ton of gas and keep up with those upgrades! I know we get to chrono ours, but attacking with 0/0 corruptors is just not going to work.
