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On March 18 2013 15:44 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 12:29 avilo wrote:On March 18 2013 12:13 deth wrote:FROM THIS: On March 18 2013 11:49 avilo wrote:On March 18 2013 11:20 Zelniq wrote:
further testing indicates a couple of things:
if an enemy unit wanders in range but exits the range (range of 5) within less than ~2 ingame seconds, the mine doesn't fire, same thing goes for multiple units..if 10 lings enter but leave the radius before the ~2 seconds, it doesn't fire. If it's there for ~2+ seconds it does. So for an idea of what that's like, the magic ~2 second time that it won't set the mine off is a speedling off creep that's moving across the edge of the circle's range of a mine, as if you were slicing the end of an orange.
The target unit's speed is irrelevant, a queen off creep can wander in, spot the mine and leave without getting hit if it leaves the radius fast enough. (btw even without detection, the mine reveals itself when I think you wander in its range. reveals its location, but doesn't allow you to attack it, similar to units you can't see that's on higher ground, that shoot you)
@Swagger: search "hots unit tester online" in arcade. it uses whatever the current state of the game is, as in say the unlisted change that occured within last few days where mothership core's recall is canceled if the mothership core dies during the recall no you cannot manually target mines. And yes it is more or less random. TO THIS: On March 18 2013 12:01 avilo wrote:On March 18 2013 11:55 Zelniq wrote:
argh why are you still saying you can't manually target them...you obviously didn't just test it cus you would have found out you can..and your first post doesn't really explain the mechanics..it's basically what DeCoup posted at the top of this page. test it right now, you can see not only can you target with them but his post about how you can keep changing targets to reset the aim timer to indefinitely prevent them from attacking..just play vs AI and try it.. I'm talking about manually targetting to have them blow up immediately on the target you want like they were in a previous patch version of beta. You can no longer do that. It's no wonder people don't take you seriously when you argue, its just an exercise in eye-rolling and face-palming frustration. Nice ad hominem, lots of people specialize more in ad hominems lately than they do in analysis because it's easier for them. Point i was making that flew over your head was that in the beta you previously could use the attack command to manually target widow mines onto units, whereas in the current release version that is no longer possible. What zelniq is saying is entirely different. He is saying you can target the widow mines with a right click command onto units which is completely unintuitive for any player that played the beta version with the previous attack command that was on the command card and the current incarnation of the mine that has no option available in the command card. How is a player supposed to know that they can re-target the widow mine manually by constantly changing attack targets with the mine over and over within a 2 second time-span? No one knew this before, and there also is no tool-tip for it. So deth if you want to go argue about arguments and improve your ad hominem take it to reddit, they take that quite seriously over there. There's a differentiation between the ability for a player to use the attack-move command and for something that does not show that in the command card yet it's still possible with a weird rule on it that no one knows about. you wanna know why everyone ends up making ad hominem attacks on you? its because you're legitly, genuinely, dumb. im not saying that as an insult or anything. you just don't think well. so you keep saying things that are untrue and missing points that are very clearly made. so people get frustrated and tell you to fuck off. its been a pattern since the start of sc2. you're slow but even you should get it by now.
thank god for idra speaking up for the rest of us. avilo posts have always been really frustrating to read.
going back on topic, I think we should wait until more pros get their feel to how to manipulate the mines before any more changes are made.
the mechanism of how it works is looking to be quite interesting to be honest
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the firing is too random, but imo you should be able to outrun/fly them which isn't the case as it seems
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Ty Zelniq for the trick, didn't know that the 1second delay was actually not part of the attack, but a real delay. Though in retrospect it makes sense, as the mine doesn't shoot if a target leaves the range too fast.
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On March 18 2013 20:54 r1flEx wrote:
the firing is too random, but imo you should be able to outrun/fly them which isn't the case as it seems
Judging by the entire thread, the only thing possibly wrong about the wm is that the splash doesn't affect air if it blew up on the ground and vice versa. THIS is what I want to know if it's working as intended.
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On March 18 2013 21:47 Reki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 20:54 r1flEx wrote:
the firing is too random, but imo you should be able to outrun/fly them which isn't the case as it seems Judging by the entire thread, the only thing possibly wrong about the wm is that the splash doesn't affect air if it blew up on the ground and vice versa. THIS is what I want to know if it's working as intended.
I am pretty sure that it does work, since I saw MANY times Terran blowing his own Medivacs and Ravens when Widow Mines were destroying Lings underneath. Maybe it got bugged since release, but it worked in Beta, I am 100% sure.
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I'm totally fine with the widow mine as it is. I think a bit of randomness makes things more interesting, to play and to watch.
It's like the reaver of SC2. Keep it as it is.
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Guys are you seriously that boring?
This is fucking awesome, stuff like this is what gives depth to competitive games.
In the short term it sucks, but in the long term it adds ridiculous amounts of depth as people find more and more about it and exploit the fringes of the game which is a necessary catalyst for creating the greatest moments in competitive games
Scarabs are perceived as random because of their potential to "dud", but in fact they are the complete opposite of that.
Scarab dodging was perfected down to a science, any given scarab on a-move towards a random worker can be perfectly dodged pretty much 100% of the time by a progamer, just worker train in the right direction with the right building placement.
Eventually people figured out manoeuvres to enhance the scarabs effectiveness again, targeting specific units, and forcing the defender to make mistakes and cause the scarabs to hit perfectly.
After that players started leveling the shit out of each other during these moments, and it was fucking awesome to watch.
(Leveling which I derived from poker for the ability for players to think about what the other person is thinking, each level is an iteration of this)
Ironically, this is the only time I will ever say this, give the game some time. People will figure out whether its really random or not once the science is figured out.
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On March 18 2013 20:10 ETisME wrote:
thank god for idra speaking up for the rest of us. avilo posts have always been really frustrating to read.
To be honest, he isn't. And i dont like your continious bashing and assuming your talking for the whole community either. Yes he could be wrong, but a forum is for discussion isn't it? Not for bashing.. Just show a little respect, cant be that hard.
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THANK YOU morrow zelniq decoup
anyway - widow mine mechanic being like this is exhilarating to watch. anyone who watched BOTH the life vs last series AND the life vs flash series could see that last knows something about mine usage that flash doesnt.
widow mines are amazing fun to watch and i havent been this close to the edge of my seat with unit interactions in starcraft since reavers in bw
god bless widow mines
ps. jesus h christ this thread is so great and so terrible at the same time, but thank god for idra calling things out as always
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+ Show Spoiler +On March 18 2013 22:22 sluggaslamoo wrote:
Guys are you seriously that boring?
This is fucking awesome, stuff like this is what gives depth to competitive games.
In the short term it sucks, but in the long term it adds ridiculous amounts of depth as people find more and more about it and exploit the fringes of the game which is a necessary catalyst for creating the greatest moments in competitive games
Scarabs are perceived as random because of their potential to "dud", but in fact they are the complete opposite of that.
Scarab dodging was perfected down to a science, any given scarab on a-move towards a random worker can be perfectly dodged pretty much 100% of the time by a progamer, just worker train in the right direction with the right building placement.
Eventually people figured out manoeuvres to enhance the scarabs effectiveness again, targeting specific units, and forcing the defender to make mistakes and cause the scarabs to hit perfectly.
After that players started leveling the shit out of each other during these moments, and it was fucking awesome to watch.
(Leveling which I derived from poker for the ability for players to think about what the other person is thinking, each level is an iteration of this)
Ironically, this is the only time I will ever say this, give the game some time. People will figure out whether its really random or not once the science is figured out.
If the widow mine leads to that level of micro between opponents, it will essentially become the most interesting unit in sc2. I agree, we should leave the way the widow mine works alone and see how it develops.
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United States7166 Posts
renamed thread from "[D]Widow mine too random?" as requested by OP
On March 18 2013 21:47 Reki wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 20:54 r1flEx wrote:
the firing is too random, but imo you should be able to outrun/fly them which isn't the case as it seems Judging by the entire thread, the only thing possibly wrong about the wm is that the splash doesn't affect air if it blew up on the ground and vice versa. THIS is what I want to know if it's working as intended.
Nope, just tested. As others said, the widow mine does splash both air and ground regardless of what it attacked.
so if you manually target mutas and there are either lings or banes underneath, the lings/banes willl all be 1 shotted by the splash.
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I think the widow mine is a good unit, however it is definitely super random for mid game pushes. I think the MLG showcase proved that it should not be used a core unit, it works much better as early defense, drops, map vision and base delays.
Using it against Zerglings who's melee units are coming towards you anyways, just drags AOE towards your units. That 2 second delay almost ensures that the speed lings will be already clumped up on your marines by the time it hits. So you take out the zerglings at your own detriment.
Personally, Id like the seperate option to blow them up manually, like burrowed banelings, to add some level of reliability.
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Thanks for this. I was wondering how this worked. Really glad to see that Terrans can have some control over the unit.
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I personally found Morrow's and Zelniq's explanations on how the widow mines work very helpful. Thanks for the contribution.
There is also another thread about the very same topic showcasing the manual ability to delay widow mine shots and target specific units via right-click. This thread can be found here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=403381
Maybe the thread I linked can be merged into this one (include the video and text there in the OP of this thread).
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So now not only do terran players have to split, stutter step, focus fire, burrow/unburrow mines. siege/unsiege tanks we also have to manipulate mines to make them work the way we want them too? While a zerg player just has to send a few lings in before A-moving the rest of his army?
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I say keep the randomness but add a on and off feature. It can be used for when zerg goes broodlords and you dont wamt the mines detonating on your marines/army. If you unburrow in that situation you have made mines that just die when unburrowed. And so that 1 ling can't trugger it. Will also resemble a burrowed baneling.
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Oh so that's why when I was target firing with mines I had the feeling that they took a fucking long time to shoot :D
It resets the attack timer. Very nice thread, thanks.
So in fact, if the mine is in range of two moving targets, A and B, and it automatically acquires A, if you target-fire B it's possible that by the time the mine actually can fire (timer reset included) both targets are not in range anymore, while if you had just let the mine do its thing, you would have hit A.
You can literally "miss your shot" at doing damage if you overmicro :D
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On March 19 2013 00:48 mokumoku wrote:
I say keep the randomness but add a on and off feature. It can be used for when zerg goes broodlords and you dont wamt the mines detonating on your marines/army. If you unburrow in that situation you have made mines that just die when unburrowed. And so that 1 ling can't trugger it. Will also resemble a burrowed baneling.
You won't "keep the randomness" if you add an instantaneous on and off feature. The unit the widow mine targets will be very predictable, whatever unit is above the widow mine at the time of activation.
Turning the mine on and off would need to take at least a couple of seconds so that it wouldn't be possible to easily activate the mine in an optimal position.
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The mine would be waaaaaaay too powerful if you can disable/enable it while burrowed. It would essentially force people to have mobile detection (which is generally very expensive) to just move a group of units on the map (to attack for example) in the early game, because 2 or 3 burrowed mines could just wipe out their army, whatever precaution they take. Right now they can at least spot in advance where mines are by sending a single unit, and mitigate critical damage in battle by somewhat choosing what the mine hits.
The way they should act is more akin to BW spidermines than to burrowed banelings.
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EPT
