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I'm a Diamond level zerg and I've started messing with this quite a bit on the ladder. Usually depending on how much early harass they go for, I go for a big bust with 1-1 and bane speed. My finding are the best way to beat widow mins is to out-macro them. They may get some good hits in but I'm having a lot of luck just massing up on ling-bane while gradually teching to ultra attacking as much as possible which keeps them too busy to drop as they are worried about defending as well as keep them pinned down to 2-3 bases while I get up to 4+. While Life used them, I don't think mutas are a crucial role is in this build until you get masters+ due to their main role being to shut down drops, but with speed boost medivacs its just hard to deal with in time. Before masters+ level, macro is the key. Mutas take a lot of micro when I'd rather use any extra APM I have macroing and attacking. These are just my thoughts, I'd be happy to hear what you guys think.
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On March 19 2013 08:30 Gene(S)is wrote:
I don't intend to go off-topic here but I am curious as to why Flash never went for Hellbats? 30+ damage to light units, they get healed and have even more health then a marauder. Any second thoughts? I know I may speak out of my terms since I don't know how they really work, just a hunch telling me though that they would've been good to his arsenal.
I'd argue that banelings shut down hellbats pretty hard, as people tend to forget that hellbats are light units still.
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On March 19 2013 22:29 Ancamdrew wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 08:30 Gene(S)is wrote:
I don't intend to go off-topic here but I am curious as to why Flash never went for Hellbats? 30+ damage to light units, they get healed and have even more health then a marauder. Any second thoughts? I know I may speak out of my terms since I don't know how they really work, just a hunch telling me though that they would've been good to his arsenal. I'd argue that banelings shut down hellbats pretty hard, as people tend to forget that hellbats are light units still.
correct. And Flash would need to research the transformation upgrade because making hellbats off the factory without transformation is just stupid unless you want to do a timing attack. Hellbats are slow while hellions can put pressure and avoid surrounds.
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United States15275 Posts
On March 19 2013 21:50 cloneThorN wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 12:53 blade55555 wrote:On March 19 2013 12:46 Ballistixz wrote:On March 19 2013 11:02 KawaiiRice wrote:On March 19 2013 10:42 Ballistixz wrote:On March 18 2013 10:16 TangSC wrote:Spoiler Warning - You may want to watch the series before reading the post / comments.Hey guys, Yesterday I was scratching my head about how Zergs should play against Terran in HotS, but after watching Life's sick run through The MLG Winter Championship, I don't think anyone can argue the effectiveness of a Zergling-centric style. I've written down some (incomplete) observations, and was hoping others could contribute their notes as well. Openings+ Show Spoiler +10Pool Opening:10 Pool Double extractor trick to 12/10 12 Overlord 12-15 Lings 15 Queen 17 Ling 18 Drones 20 Hatch I'm really impressed with how well this opening went for Life. Most early pools rely on killing workers, but Life's version seems economic enough to transition well even without doing much damage. He only makes 8 Zerglings (not a huge commitment), and goes into an expansion and gas afterwards. He generally gets 100 gas for Speed, and periodically builds some Lings to shut down pressure. Sacrificing some economy for Zerglings seems to be a recurring theme in Life's games. Hatch-First Opening15 Hatch 17 Gas 16 Pool 17 Overlord Drones out of gas after 100 (Though sometimes he left 1 in gas) I didn't actually see Life play against Reapers with this opening, but with the early speed he'd probably hold with good micro. If you're interested in the next-steps of this build, check out Lowko's Video on Life. For the most part, Life played a +1/+1 Zergling-centric style of mid-game with Banelings and a delayed Lair for Mutalisks/Speed, but had a few variations:
Aggressive +1/+1 Speed-Baneling
This was just a sick timing that Life used to great effect in the finals. He went for very fast third and droned hard, but as usual still built enough Lings to get decent map control and vision. The vision was key for him, because he was able to hide a bunch of Lings mid-field to execute a massive +1/+1 Speedling/Baneling timings. The timing hit around 11 Minutes with about 30+ Banelings and who knows how many Zerglings. Perhaps an All-In (Or is it?) thread is in order. . .
Delayed-Lair Ling/Baneling/Mutalisk
By delaying Lair to 9:30/10:00, Life was able to keep a competitive economy while executing his usual +1/+1 Zergling-Centric mid-game. When Lair finished, he moved into Baneling Speed, 2/2, and Spire to complete a balanced mid-game. It seems inevitable that Widow Mines get some good connections with Zerg armies, but Life's army-splitting was on the ball. Once Overseers were on the field it was easier for Life to snipe those pesky mines. He used multi-pronged aggression to secure small leads, shut down drops with relative ease, and control the middle of the map. I wish I could multitask like that! In the later stages, Life added Ultralisks to tank/dps and Vipers to snag those Medivacs. So sick!
7:00 Lair / Mutalisk
After a few aggressive Baneling timings, Life switched it up and went for a 7:00 Lair, allowing him to start some unexpected Mutalisk harass as early as 11minutes.
I hope you all enjoyed the series as much as I did! i hate to be a kill bill here, but his "ling centric style" is just a standard muta ling baneling style that was beyond standard in WoL... its nothing new. its as old as the game itself Nobody plays the early game like Life does, calling it "beyond standard" is incredibly wrong. sorry if i dont beleive you, but i cant see how what life is doing any different from the past other than being a bit more aggressive early on. i mean at the end of the day its still muta ling bane... Yeah it might be hard for you to understand but you should see korean interviews back when they used to ask other zergs why they didn't do what life did. They all said the same thing "I don't know how it works for life his style is so hard to do and I just lost with it so I stopped doing it". No zerg in the world can emulate life right now in how he does his ling control. His style really is different then other zergs and to how he uses it. Theres actually been atleast one player who have used Life's style in WoL, in the early 2012. Altho his style was inferior because of his inferior skill to life, the style of ROOTDestiny was an exact dublicate of what Life did at MLG.
Destiny relied heavily on fast massed infestors to win and used his mineral dump for zerglings. Destiny also did not exploit zerglings for counter-attacks, map control, and multi-pronged aggression like Life because his micro and multitasking were not up to the task. Their styles were completely different. DRG's style was closer but DRG relied more on overwhelming mechanics and safe builds to snuff out Terran mid-game aggression.
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On March 20 2013 07:31 CosmicSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On March 19 2013 21:50 cloneThorN wrote:On March 19 2013 12:53 blade55555 wrote:On March 19 2013 12:46 Ballistixz wrote:On March 19 2013 11:02 KawaiiRice wrote:On March 19 2013 10:42 Ballistixz wrote:On March 18 2013 10:16 TangSC wrote:Spoiler Warning - You may want to watch the series before reading the post / comments.Hey guys, Yesterday I was scratching my head about how Zergs should play against Terran in HotS, but after watching Life's sick run through The MLG Winter Championship, I don't think anyone can argue the effectiveness of a Zergling-centric style. I've written down some (incomplete) observations, and was hoping others could contribute their notes as well. Openings+ Show Spoiler +10Pool Opening:10 Pool Double extractor trick to 12/10 12 Overlord 12-15 Lings 15 Queen 17 Ling 18 Drones 20 Hatch I'm really impressed with how well this opening went for Life. Most early pools rely on killing workers, but Life's version seems economic enough to transition well even without doing much damage. He only makes 8 Zerglings (not a huge commitment), and goes into an expansion and gas afterwards. He generally gets 100 gas for Speed, and periodically builds some Lings to shut down pressure. Sacrificing some economy for Zerglings seems to be a recurring theme in Life's games. Hatch-First Opening15 Hatch 17 Gas 16 Pool 17 Overlord Drones out of gas after 100 (Though sometimes he left 1 in gas) I didn't actually see Life play against Reapers with this opening, but with the early speed he'd probably hold with good micro. If you're interested in the next-steps of this build, check out Lowko's Video on Life. For the most part, Life played a +1/+1 Zergling-centric style of mid-game with Banelings and a delayed Lair for Mutalisks/Speed, but had a few variations:
Aggressive +1/+1 Speed-Baneling
This was just a sick timing that Life used to great effect in the finals. He went for very fast third and droned hard, but as usual still built enough Lings to get decent map control and vision. The vision was key for him, because he was able to hide a bunch of Lings mid-field to execute a massive +1/+1 Speedling/Baneling timings. The timing hit around 11 Minutes with about 30+ Banelings and who knows how many Zerglings. Perhaps an All-In (Or is it?) thread is in order. . .
Delayed-Lair Ling/Baneling/Mutalisk
By delaying Lair to 9:30/10:00, Life was able to keep a competitive economy while executing his usual +1/+1 Zergling-Centric mid-game. When Lair finished, he moved into Baneling Speed, 2/2, and Spire to complete a balanced mid-game. It seems inevitable that Widow Mines get some good connections with Zerg armies, but Life's army-splitting was on the ball. Once Overseers were on the field it was easier for Life to snipe those pesky mines. He used multi-pronged aggression to secure small leads, shut down drops with relative ease, and control the middle of the map. I wish I could multitask like that! In the later stages, Life added Ultralisks to tank/dps and Vipers to snag those Medivacs. So sick!
7:00 Lair / Mutalisk
After a few aggressive Baneling timings, Life switched it up and went for a 7:00 Lair, allowing him to start some unexpected Mutalisk harass as early as 11minutes.
I hope you all enjoyed the series as much as I did! i hate to be a kill bill here, but his "ling centric style" is just a standard muta ling baneling style that was beyond standard in WoL... its nothing new. its as old as the game itself Nobody plays the early game like Life does, calling it "beyond standard" is incredibly wrong. sorry if i dont beleive you, but i cant see how what life is doing any different from the past other than being a bit more aggressive early on. i mean at the end of the day its still muta ling bane... Yeah it might be hard for you to understand but you should see korean interviews back when they used to ask other zergs why they didn't do what life did. They all said the same thing "I don't know how it works for life his style is so hard to do and I just lost with it so I stopped doing it". No zerg in the world can emulate life right now in how he does his ling control. His style really is different then other zergs and to how he uses it. Theres actually been atleast one player who have used Life's style in WoL, in the early 2012. Altho his style was inferior because of his inferior skill to life, the style of ROOTDestiny was an exact dublicate of what Life did at MLG. Destiny relied heavily on fast massed infestors to win and used his mineral dump for zerglings. Destiny also did not exploit zerglings for counter-attacks, map control, and multi-pronged aggression like Life because his micro and multitasking were not up to the task. Their styles were completely different. DRG's style was closer but DRG relied more on overwhelming mechanics and safe builds to snuff out Terran mid-game aggression.
I would agree with this - Life's Zergling counter-attacks are pretty unique, I think maybe Nerchio is closest to using Lings as effectively.
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Life showed some great ling control, but people saying this style is only possible with X ling control are being really dense. I've been playing a 3 hatch style in ZvT for a while, and i'm pretty god dam terrible. Nothing new really, life just seems to have this build very refined. The aggression life does is just something you have to do with this style, or else you'll just die to drops. Terrans in the current meta game are used to doing drops while taking a third, but if you're getting hit with aggression you can't really do either... It makes a lot of terrans look silly...
And now that the build is refined and known here on TL, i suspect this will be the new meta game in a short time.
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Imo, part of why Life had such an easy time against Flash was because of his reliance on Widow Mines rather than the new and improved tank. You can get siege mode 60 seconds earlier, as well as save 100 gas which can possibly go towards an early Raven.
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On March 22 2013 11:58 HanSomPa wrote:
Imo, part of why Life had such an easy time against Flash was because of his reliance on Widow Mines rather than the new and improved tank. You can get siege mode 60 seconds earlier, as well as save 100 gas which can possibly go towards an early Raven.
Well I wouldn't say he had an easy time against Flash! Flash is pretty beastly, and his widow-mine control was solid. I'm not sure he can afford tanks into his double engi / MMMM style.
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On March 23 2013 05:24 TangSC wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 11:58 HanSomPa wrote:
Imo, part of why Life had such an easy time against Flash was because of his reliance on Widow Mines rather than the new and improved tank. You can get siege mode 60 seconds earlier, as well as save 100 gas which can possibly go towards an early Raven. Well I wouldn't say he had an easy time against Flash! Flash is pretty beastly, and his widow-mine control was solid. I'm not sure he can afford tanks into his double engi / MMMM style.
Well I dont mean he had it easy haha, I meant that he controlled the flow of the game and looked very strong in game five, four, and the one on alkion flats.
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On March 23 2013 05:59 HanSomPa wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 05:24 TangSC wrote:On March 22 2013 11:58 HanSomPa wrote:
Imo, part of why Life had such an easy time against Flash was because of his reliance on Widow Mines rather than the new and improved tank. You can get siege mode 60 seconds earlier, as well as save 100 gas which can possibly go towards an early Raven. Well I wouldn't say he had an easy time against Flash! Flash is pretty beastly, and his widow-mine control was solid. I'm not sure he can afford tanks into his double engi / MMMM style. Well I dont mean he had it easy haha, I meant that he controlled the flow of the game and looked very strong in game five, four, and the one on alkion flats.
Yeah true he did do that. I think the MMMM composition is stronger than marine/tank though.
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On March 22 2013 11:51 Audio wrote:
Life showed some great ling control, but people saying this style is only possible with X ling control are being really dense. I've been playing a 3 hatch style in ZvT for a while, and i'm pretty god dam terrible. Nothing new really, life just seems to have this build very refined. The aggression life does is just something you have to do with this style, or else you'll just die to drops. Terrans in the current meta game are used to doing drops while taking a third, but if you're getting hit with aggression you can't really do either... It makes a lot of terrans look silly...
And now that the build is refined and known here on TL, i suspect this will be the new meta game in a short time.
That's because you're diamond playing vs diamond players. This style of play is MUCH harder to use against good terrans that have good map control and the game sense not to easily die to ling run bys.
Life is so amazing because he makes this work against amazing players like Flash, and completely tears them apart with it.
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On March 22 2013 11:58 HanSomPa wrote:
Imo, part of why Life had such an easy time against Flash was because of his reliance on Widow Mines rather than the new and improved tank. You can get siege mode 60 seconds earlier, as well as save 100 gas which can possibly go towards an early Raven.
The thing about Life's style is that Zergling usage isn't a very costly investment, and his aggression buys him a lot of time to macro up and give him options. That initial agression set Flash on the defensive the whole game, with little to no risk on life's build. If Flash had gotten a tank, that gives life all the more time to get upgrades and expands, while Flash is sitting there waiting for an attack. I do agree on a more mech style of play though, I feel like hellions puts so much more pressure on the Zerg to have good control, something hard to do at the lower levels.
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life's my hero. but yeah i been attempting to use his style of play lately. won me like 8 matchs in a row and put me in platinum league
top 8
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What are the gas timings for the delayed lair?
Bio + Mine is giving me headaches!
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United States4883 Posts
I'm a masters level player playing around with all races, and I started wanting to play around with zerg in HotS. I've been trying out Life's style of super aggressive ling use, and I agree that it's dizzingly hard to keep up with everything. My APM has skyrocketed through the roof while attempting this, but I still feel like I neglect a lot of basic things like creep spread and larvae injects because I'm spending so much time moving all over the map doing counterattacks, defending drops, and trying to avoid widow mines.
Life truly is incredible. Still, I think this style is worth practicing some, even though it's stupidly difficult; you'll learn a lot more about counterattacking, setting up flanks, and how to set up contains as zerg.
Also, OP, thanks for the short guide!
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this build die to hellbat thor, i don't think it's so good
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United States4883 Posts
On April 01 2013 00:02 Garmer wrote:
this build die to hellbat thor, i don't think it's so good
Lol, Of course, scouting is included in this build hahaha. If there are a LOT of hellions out on the field, you should probably be looking at making a switch to roaches anyway. This not only combats the possibility of your opponent going mech, but also gives you the flexibility to add on hydras and trade fairly evenly with bio/hellbat. If your opponent is making a TON of hellions, you're ahead on production and upgrades, assuming you're not losing 6 million zerglings to the hellions.
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you don't need ton of hellion, just few hellbat, and all lings are died
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United States4883 Posts
On April 01 2013 00:39 Garmer wrote:
you don't need ton of hellion, just few hellbat, and all lings are died
No one goes thor/hellion with "just a few hellbats" lol. With thor/hellion, more than half of your composition is naturally hellions. And the core of mech is generally heavy harassment with hellions and/or banshees, so don't even give me "well, maybe he hides some hellions" BS lol.
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thor hellbats was just an example, if you go bio just add few hellbats(not hellion, hellbats are like ten time better aginst lings), they get the job done
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EPT
