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On March 18 2013 13:18 ahw wrote: i hope everyone copies this because delaying double ups for 45 seconds and getting an early tank out on the high ground would end this.
The whole point is to force the terran to play defensively and to drone up and expand and spread creep. So if you are rushing out that early tank, mission accomplished.
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On March 18 2013 13:27 MstrJinbo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 13:18 ahw wrote: i hope everyone copies this because delaying double ups for 45 seconds and getting an early tank out on the high ground would end this. The whole point is to force the terran to play defensively and to drone up and expand and spread creep. So if you are rushing out that early tank, mission accomplished.
i guess. but if making a single tank is going to keep me safe to 3cc while a zerg masses lings because he is copying life, that is more than ok with me
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I too have faced this on the ladder after MLG and am having problems with it. I understand now why Flash doesn't build battle hellions... there are just too many damn mutas. Do you go siege tank mmm, cuz i feel like a few vipers will rip through you. If any terrans have figured out a solution let me know
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Try just one siege tank after you make 4-6 hellions, then switch the rax to the fact and start stim and mines.
If he decides to all in, pull all scvs to main and target fire tank on banes. you'll lose some scvs and depots but end up ahead in tech and have 3cc
if he doesn't decide to commit, then you've only invested in one tank, no biggie.
edit: if you are losing to the later game comp, you are probably just being outplayed.
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Copying the best zerg in the world is good and all but I doubt more than a handful of people outside life beats 14 blue flame helions with 26 lings. His control and macro are what allows his strategies to be super effective. Something to keep in mind when you copy builds.
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To be honest zerglings have always been extremely strong units. People overlook this because its so cheap, weak, first combat unit for Zerg. They have great speed, can give you map control, super strong in numbers, and extremely expendable....
Perhaps in WoL people didn't realize how strong lings were, only Life lol. Now people are starting to see
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Great post, TangSC TY
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Personally i've been playing against bio mine with ling-centric style too recently. Pretty good... when your opponent doesnt adapt and doesnt add hellbats.
And it's honestly hard as hell to manage when the terran adds hellbats to his biomine army.
I think that zerg needs to transition very fast to ultra vipers infestors when the hellbats are on the battlefield. Muta ling bane just get wrecked.
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On March 18 2013 14:00 ahw wrote: Try just one siege tank after you make 4-6 hellions, then switch the rax to the fact and start stim and mines.
If he decides to all in, pull all scvs to main and target fire tank on banes. you'll lose some scvs and depots but end up ahead in tech and have 3cc
if he doesn't decide to commit, then you've only invested in one tank, no biggie.
edit: if you are losing to the later game comp, you are probably just being outplayed. This doesn't hard counter Life's style at all, it actually sets you behind as Terran because getting a tank that early is really bad. It was bad in WoL and it's even worse in HotS with the other options T has.
The thing is this style isn't anything new, Life's been using it since WoL and it just happens to deal with the current Terran meta about the same way it did in WoL but nobody looked at it because there was no need to. I remember writing about it in the GSL finals of him vs Mvp. It definitely relies on micro but it's so insanely cost inefficient/larva inefficient and micro oriented that only high level players would be able to copy it.
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On March 18 2013 17:03 Swordland wrote: To be honest zerglings have always been extremely strong units. People overlook this because its so cheap, weak, first combat unit for Zerg. They have great speed, can give you map control, super strong in numbers, and extremely expendable....
Perhaps in WoL people didn't realize how strong lings were, only Life lol. Now people are starting to see
3/3 Adrenal lings have the highest dps in the game on a per supply basis. I don't think we've seen as many because Zergs have been really greedy up until HotS and now that there is more early-game harass it makes more sense to get a stable two bases before commiting to further expansions.
The main thing I took from Life's play was how he never took any early game damage from drops, it was only once the games pace had picked up and his attention was in other places that he was even taking damage. I guess that happens when you make mutas, spores and spread overlords, who'd have thought...
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i dnt think life discovered anything new in the metagame its just that he has better micro and multitasking than any one else. he has been playing with his aggressive style since wol, i cant believe some ppl used to call him a patch zerg.
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On March 18 2013 17:33 KawaiiRice wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 14:00 ahw wrote: Try just one siege tank after you make 4-6 hellions, then switch the rax to the fact and start stim and mines.
If he decides to all in, pull all scvs to main and target fire tank on banes. you'll lose some scvs and depots but end up ahead in tech and have 3cc
if he doesn't decide to commit, then you've only invested in one tank, no biggie.
edit: if you are losing to the later game comp, you are probably just being outplayed. This doesn't hard counter Life's style at all, it actually sets you behind as Terran because getting a tank that early is really bad. It was bad in WoL and it's even worse in HotS with the other options T has. The thing is this style isn't anything new, Life's been using it since WoL and it just happens to deal with the current Terran meta about the same way it did in WoL but nobody looked at it because there was no need to. I remember writing about it in the GSL finals of him vs Mvp. It definitely relies on micro but it's so insanely cost inefficient/larva inefficient and micro oriented that only high level players would be able to copy it.
And even then most high level zergs fail at it. I remember lots of korean zergs in interviews asked/mentioned life style how they tried it and they just didn't understand how it works for life because they get crushed doing it which is why you don't see korean zergs or pro zergs in general copying it.
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I definitely don't believe the speedbane followup is an allin at all. For example in game 1 against Polt it got defended really well and he ended up being only slightly behind, still winning the game with mutalingbane. I call it a pressurebuild but regardless of what one calls it, it's not a sure loss or even a huge disadvantage even if it gets defended.
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On March 18 2013 16:35 Sc2zero7 wrote: Copying the best zerg in the world is good and all but I doubt more than a handful of people outside life beats 14 blue flame helions with 26 lings. His control and macro are what allows his strategies to be super effective. Something to keep in mind when you copy builds. Is there a way to watch the VODs of MLG? I'd love to see this game...
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On March 19 2013 01:12 Lobotomist wrote:Show nested quote +On March 18 2013 16:35 Sc2zero7 wrote: Copying the best zerg in the world is good and all but I doubt more than a handful of people outside life beats 14 blue flame helions with 26 lings. His control and macro are what allows his strategies to be super effective. Something to keep in mind when you copy builds. Is there a way to watch the VODs of MLG? I'd love to see this game... http://tv.majorleaguegaming.com/events/23-2013-winter-championship#2424/2432/1
All the VOD's are free.
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Hey everybody! I just wanted to drop by and add Life's philosophy behind the style.
Strengths/weaknesses + Lings are mathematically the most efficient unit in the game...in terms of DPS per mineral spent. Unless splash damage is incorporated, they have one of the best life per mineral spent as well. So long as you can flank (or threaten to flank), you can pretty much keep the terran's bio in his base. + Banelings have the best efficiency per supply in the game. Maxed banelings can take out maxed thors if clumped up. - Ling/baneling has the worst efficiency in the game in terms of larva. If you want to build drones AND ling/baneling, you're going to need lots of hatcheries. Life wasn't really expanding super fast, he was setting up macro hatcheries that would later turn into expansions. + Because ling/baneling/(muta) is an efficient use of supply, Life could get more drones than the average zerg before maxing.
That was pretty much his philosophy. He kept several ctrl groups of lings active on the map to deny scouting and trying to get a flank on the hellions. His expanding (macro hatches) were extremely aggressive, which is just a winning combo. I would have liked to see more drops/burrow to keep the terran penned up in his base, but I can't argue with what life did.
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IMO I'm sad that besides widow mines, hardly any hots units made an appearance in the finals/semis. (save for MC). You could chalk it up to the short time frame the expac has been out, and that most players are more comfortable using their wol builds I guess. I honestly feel like they should've kept warhounds in the game, and maybe gave them the ability to lay mines, instead of the mine being its own odd unit. obvious balance aside it would be much more fun to watch than the current bio +mine style we are seeing.
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It seems like a lot of Life's success can be attributed to the Terrans' neglect of tanks in exchange for the less-predictable mines. Were there any specific games where Life had to use his style against a Terran that was using both widow mines and tanks? What are the tradeoffs for Terran to use both Tanks and Widow Mines? How did Life handle himself in those games?
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Trying to emulate Life's ling centric ling play is something I hope everyone starts doing.. Not because I think it would be effective, but rather because nobody else is going to be able to kill 8 blue flame hellions with 24 lings.. no matter how hard you try. Unless you have 400+ APM you are going to quickly learn that Life's ability to control lings and your ability to control lings are two very different things.
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