EPT[D] Playing with feel as opposed to build order. - Page 3
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Mellon
Sweden917 Posts
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ShadowRaven
United States2 Posts
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SjPhotoGrapher
181 Posts
I feel as though Build Orders are too rigid and it's better to have good multi tasking ability and an understanding of the matchups and what to do vs different unit compositions and base your army and thus "build" around that. I understand very early BO's that go up to say 24 food but those are basically muscle memory. It's a bad idea to go "okay, TvP I will strive for 3 rax after 1 rax feing, get a third after ebay, add two more rax, extra ebay and armory, ghost academy, 4th base" when you can open aggressive and if you *feel* that you're ahead pull all scvs or add more rax and end the game there instead of dragging the game out. That goes for every race as well. | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On March 15 2013 11:18 Aberu wrote: My buddy Jobless was grandmasters a way long time ago, and stayed in high masters for a long time, and he said his strategy was to "wing it". . thats because he pulled his scvs every game | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
For Terran and Protoss, you absolutely do benefit from tight build orders and specific timings. That's why there's just so many guides on strict timings on when plop down what building based on your supply count. I would say that for Terran, it's even more important to go by stricter build orders. You have to make up your mind on exactly what you're gonna do, and execute it all according to plan. If you go reactor widow mine but accidentally make two hellions, this can cost you the game, when suddenly stalkers + mcore show up at your doorstep. | ||
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Silho
Brazil32 Posts
For example, not droning when people expect you to do so. Making lings when people don't expect you to. Of course it needs clever planning, but finding holes on preparations that people have seems and feels good to me. Not talking about all-ining or just simply doing bad stuff, I'm talking more about subtle things like making 8 lings when people are taking early expos. Sacrificing your plan to mess with theirs, as long as theirs is at least a little bit more messed than yours, is a win. Again, of course, that means you need to cleverly plan what are your deviations and what do you expect for them to deviate. Thats my 2cents at least | ||
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SjPhotoGrapher
181 Posts
On March 15 2013 13:28 D_K_night wrote: Much more so a zerg style to play based on gut feeling, reactionary on what you've scouted. For Terran and Protoss, you absolutely do benefit from tight build orders and specific timings. That's why there's just so many guides on strict timings on when plop down what building based on your supply count. I would say that for Terran, it's even more important to go by stricter build orders. You have to make up your mind on exactly what you're gonna do, and execute it all according to plan. If you go reactor widow mine but accidentally make two hellions, this can cost you the game, when suddenly stalkers + mcore show up at your doorstep. Up to a certain point thats fine (say 25 food) but after that it's all improvised unless someone plays very rigid and predictable. What happens when you get harrassed and lose a few units and can't afford that additional rax that your BO requires? It's all about improvisation and multitasking ability. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On March 15 2013 13:35 SjPhotoGrapher wrote: Up to a certain point thats fine (say 25 food) but after that it's all improvised unless someone plays very rigid and predictable. What happens when you get harrassed and lose a few units and can't afford that additional rax that your BO requires? It's all about improvisation and multitasking ability. huh, there is really no such thing as "winging it" if you are an active player A build isn't Just a list of when to get certain buildings. It's a tree with many branches, and yes a branch is reserved for games in which you lose a few workers.... "Winging it" only exists if you play infrequently | ||
EsportsJohn
United States4883 Posts
All in all, I do change my build depending on what I see, but the "perfect macro model" sticks in the back of my head. If anything happens, I can always refer back to that model and get back on track. Perhaps the only downside to playing by build orders is that you lose some originality and get stuck in static thinking (i.e. THIS won't work, THAT won't work, THIS is good, THAT'S bad, etc., etc.). EDIT: To add about creating your own build orders: Anyone who has a clear understanding of economy management and common timings can create refined, strong builds. Generally, this understanding doesn't come until the higher levels of diamond and low masters. NOTE: A strong, refined build is an overall gameplan. For example, rushing for a cloaked banshee and following up with a widow mine double expand into hellion-heavy double armory mech is a build; rushing for a banshee is NOT a build. | ||
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Aterons_toss
Romania1275 Posts
A build order that you learn or create in void of what your opponent is doing might as well the the equivalent of playing based on "feel" imo, thus I generally prefer to simply improvise from game to game and I seem to be doing pretty well with that in HOTS considering I didn't get the beta and i stopped playing WOL 2 months ago. | ||
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Alvas
United States309 Posts
 But seriously, I think your reasoning is pretty good, following a static build and even using cut and paste responses I think makes for weaker players in the long run. It may take a while to get good at instinct reactions, but once you do I think you will be a much stronger player for it. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
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ToKoreaWithLove
Norway10161 Posts
However, if I actually wanted to get to masters or even gm I would probably think more about this. An optimised build can give you that extra little bit. | ||
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butterstulle
Germany20 Posts
most of the "build orders" are ending after 30 supply anyways, and u have to adapt from there for your own so.. not a big difference | ||
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SjPhotoGrapher
181 Posts
On March 15 2013 13:45 ROOTMinigun wrote: huh, there is really no such thing as "winging it" if you are an active player A build isn't Just a list of when to get certain buildings. It's a tree with many branches, and yes a branch is reserved for games in which you lose a few workers.... "Winging it" only exists if you play infrequently I never said winging it. Of course players have an idea o what their uni composition will be but only a small number of players build things by the food count or in a set order no manner what. | ||
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osiris17
United States165 Posts
If your opponent attacks you with a ton of speedlings, or roaches, or high econ baneling bust, or whatever... then yes you play by feel from that point onward. But you are playing by feel usually with a substantial lead, as long as you defend the desperate aggerssion properly.. it isn't difficult. Just focus on defending the aggression well. That too becomes a sort of science after a while. Once the real attacks start, you begin playing the game by feel more. And you have to focus as much as possible at that point. And playing by feel is important, but there's no reason go too far with the concept and play the opening by feel when you can make an exact science out of it.. | ||
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Jasiwel
United States146 Posts
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SjPhotoGrapher
181 Posts
On March 17 2013 04:36 Jasiwel wrote: I agree with the OP here and I only follow builds if it involves a fast-expanding opener of some kind. I think builds can restrict your reactivity and flexibility, so having a general feel of what you want to do for your strategy with some decent structure along the way definitely pays off. This 100%. An understanding of timings is important as well (such as knowing when to line up Stim & CS research for a timing for map control/push or knowing when certain timing attacks hit and what to scout for). | ||
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SHODAN
United Kingdom1144 Posts
In contrast, there's TvT at the end of the WoL era. Bio vs mech could turn into a real scrappy match-up with the most clusterfuck compositions imaginable. Gumiho vs MMA shows just how fast-paced things could get; non-stop bio drops and tank action followed by crazy base-trades and cloak banshee tech switches. how about Gumiho vs Polt and that mass blue-flame hellion/viking style. Taeja vs Noblesse on Daybreak with that crazy raven/cloaked banshee tech switch. If we were stuck with WoL for another 2 years, we'd probably see the same unpredctability in TvT. the match-up was well suited for on-the-fly strategies and compositions. | ||
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Asukurra
United Kingdom50 Posts
His idea of it being like a tree is properly the best way to put it i think, at least to my own play style, Story time:- When i started playing all i did was ask my work friends who got me in to he game how and what and when to do things, a basic BO if you will, so all i could do was XYZ in order, then when something didnt go to plan i would be left staring at my screen, trying to do things i couldnt as i had no idea how or why anything should work and would lose alot to anything 'non standard' Skip forward to current, Im a Mechanical Engineer so im a maths and theory kinda guy, so i know alot of related timings , things like a gateway builds roughly 1/2 the time of gateway research without boost) and things like that, also i play in either setter or follower, i will have a 'trunk' of a open that will go into a game saying, i will do XYZ until i see what they are doing, then when scouting i will decide will i be the setter or follower, or aggressor/ defender When i have decided how i will play judging on the scouting, i have many 'branchs' or what and how to do things with the related timings to each other, and playing Random to Diamond i have a decent enough knowledge of all 3 races, so if for this story im playing PvT, my Trunk will be XYZ usual gate-> scout->cybercore, then info should have been found, just the basics like expanded or not, 1/2/3 rax, or no rax (proxy) then i can pick a branch on how to play, are they playing aggressively, forcing me to play reactively (follower) or supper passive 3 bunkers to defend his expand, forcing me to make the first play (setter) TL:DR :- I believe playing using a starting BO for the first few mins then having several 'related timings' to 'wing it' with structure, depending on if i am the aggressor or defender/ pressured or left alone etc Playing it on the fly is a good skill to have, as long as you have a structure to follow it up with | ||
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