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covetousrat
2109 Posts
Lets take another example Parting who is being popular for the WonWonWon and not forget his PvT 3 Nexus mass gates. Parting and most established Koreans eg MVP are the perfect breed of build orders and execution. They practice the build over and over in order to execute it perfectly. Parting wonwonwon pushes out at 9 mins. This the timing with perfect build. This is my opinion of being a GM from sea since launch till now if it matters lol. Cheers. | ||
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danl9rm
United States3111 Posts
On March 14 2013 12:17 Xapti wrote: I'm quite annoyed at this, but I find SC2 rewards build order memorization and execution quite a bit (at-least/more-so for Terran and Protoss). It's maybe a bit less the case for zerg, but that's due to the fact that zerg tends to be so reactionary and defensive. I'm much more of a fan of games which used more ingenuity and strategy and micro (which was a bit more the case with Brood War), rather than just running flat-out effective build orders (like 1 rax expand into hellion banshee or other stuff) I find that in SC2 many players can win outright just by running a certain build and having reasonable macro despite having a deficit of skill or knowledge (like a platinum or diamond beating a masters) A plat or diamond isn't beating a master league player just because of build order. I mean, that may not hold true in every case, but by a large margin it will. Plat players are so bad at micro and positioning that it really doesn't matter if they have a few extra units against a master leaguer at the right time. The master leaguer will just buy some extra seconds in the field and ruin any timing attack the other guy had. I haven't played the ladder much lately (~10 games in the past 2 months) but when I started (beta) and for the next year, I didn't even bother reading build orders. I "made" my own, that is to say, I just did whatever I felt like when the game started. If I felt like building another drone, I did. If I felt like throwing down a baneling nest, I did. Anyway, I went from Silver -> Master that way and it only took a couple months or less (Master league didn't exist at first, so that added time, hah). Memorizing build orders and stuff like that just seemed stupid to me then, and kind of does to me now, since people that copy them won't understand why they are doing them. When I give advice to people wanting to learn how to play, I tell them to try to win as early in the game as possible, like with a rush. Soon they will notice that it's much easier to beat opponents you are better than with macro. But, you can't learn how to macro if you don't know how to hold off someone else's rush. And that's a lot easier to learn if you know how to rush yourself. What I mean is that if you are only always counting on your opponent macro'ing up as well, that's not knowing how to macro. That's just following a build order. Whooptydoo. edit: To be clear, I'm not saying build orders are bad, but they aren't the miracles people think they are if you don't create them yourself. To me, it's almost like saying, "Here, let me teach you how to do this calculus problem." All that information is worthless to someone that doesn't know how to do calculus already! It certainly is for someone that doesn't know how to add. When I'm helping noobs, I just talk them through their "build orders" as they do them and as they're thinking about them. As they "optimize" (lol, right?) them, they are understanding why they are building expansions at certain times and why they need, perhaps, a bunker at certain times. If I just told them to build a bunker at 6:00 every game, it would mean nothing to them and they would probably even forget to. Likewise, as they play their "builds" against real opponents, they recognize flaws in their builds. That's where I come in. I help them interpret that information. They may take it that they need to build less scv's because they didn't have the money for more marines, which they needed, but I show them that all they really needed was to be more efficient with their macro and they could have twice the marines at the same time anyway. Stuff like that. | ||
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covetousrat
2109 Posts
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BlinkGosu
United States46 Posts
Don't get me wrong, i do use some buildorders, such as 9 pylon/14gate/double assim15 etc. but that's usually where it drops off. My build orders usually only focus on gas timings and chrono boost usage, but those are only for the first couple minutes of the game, and are more based on FEEL: if i feel safe enough to play greedily, or if i feel unsafe, and thus play more defensively. The Best way to play a fluid, free-form style like this, is to scout scout scout and scout! I feel that hallucination is an amazing scouting tool; and that along with observers, protoss has quite the potential for a reactionary style. Its really easy to get into the mentality of just building up your bases and macroing up your army, but you really need to observe what your opponent is doing and react accordingly. In the early game a good way to scout is to attack the opponent before he has Conc shells or Speedlings, this way you can back off if you see too much stuff, or you can engage directly and wittle down his stuff by trading zealots and microing stalkers efficiently. The best way to play with "feel" is simply to practice. Each game that you get in adds to your base of knowledge and understanding. In addition to playing, i have found it extremely beneficial to watch games played by the best of the best, be it in GSL/MLG/DREAMHACK/ whatever, as long as they are top notch players, you should be watching what they do, and learning. This kind of playstyle on the ladder will make you incredibly solid, however, i feel that in a Tournament setting it is better to use SPECIFIC build order or build order COUNTERS based on your knowledge of the opponent. This is because if you are feeling it, you tend to play in the middle of aggressive and defensive, greedy and safe. If your opponent is playing towards one extreme or the other in terms of ALL IN bane bust, or 3 hatch before Pool then it is VERY easy to either outright Lose, or fall way behind. Hope that helps you guys understand at least my perspective on the matter!  any questions are welcome in terms of advice or simply discussion in general. Thanks! | ||
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VelRa_G
Canada304 Posts
On March 14 2013 22:33 covetousrat wrote: Ok playing with your instinct is just a way of playing the game and there is nothing wrong. However, I seriously think that this is inferior and not the best way if you are planning to go to the highest GM/ pro levels. Let me give you an example here, Whitera. From his gameplay, he can be the best example of playing with feel and instinct. His style is fine, building expos building units more expos etc. This playstyle is not wrong you can even get to GM with this type of plays but it wont get you to the highest level. Lets take another example Parting who is being popular for the WonWonWon and not forget his PvT 3 Nexus mass gates. Parting and most established Koreans eg MVP are the perfect breed of build orders and execution. They practice the build over and over in order to execute it perfectly. Parting wonwonwon pushes out at 9 mins. This the timing with perfect build. This is my opinion of being a GM from sea since launch till now if it matters lol. Cheers. I agree, if you are serious about getting better you need to learn timings. It's note so much "memorization" as it is developing your mind until it has "starsense". But don't listen to me. The infamous Artosis quote: + Show Spoiler + The anti 3-Hatch Mutalisk build order given ... is an exact build order used by one of the best Terrans in the world. Every pro Terran knows this build and practices the hell out of it. Their training partner Zergs in the mean time do the same 3 hatchery mutalisk build over and over. By doing basically the same game OVER AND OVER AND OVER you will memorize it quite well and see the holes in your game. This basic play is the result of countless hours of progamers playing each other and finding the most robust and powerful builds and styles. As you master this build order in TvZ you will have to learn how to adapt to various things different zergs do. That is the last thing you really need to learn because if you know this build inside out and can macro it, control it, know your timings and everything like that then you are just going to roll people over who do lesser builds. [...] The point of this: Mechanics are more important than any other aspect of the game currently. The game is getting more and more mapped out. You need to be able to follow that map.[1] Another point would be you don't play with EITHER feel OR builds, you can play an insanely robust build order and breath life into it the way, for instance, MMA breathes life into TvT bio or Parting breathes life into the immortal rush. Every game, I'm trying to learn my timings and isolate things to work on. If I want to play entirely by feel, I play 2v2. | ||
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gongshow41
Korea (South)49 Posts
Entering a game with a plan of attack is astoundingly better then just entering a game and "winging it" The build order offers this plan. They don't have to be super precise but having general transitional timings and goals for each stage of the game is important. | ||
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furerkip
United States439 Posts
In WoL, I never had to since the builds were pre-determined for each matchup. In HoTS, I've only been trying to play with feel only. The thing is, I've never used the Widow Mine before, so it's hard for me to understand how I'm supposed to play with it and I really don't want to play with only WoL units. I can only use my "instincts" when I'm in the late-game. Anything before that, I need to have a plan (which is currently in the makings lol). | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20318 Posts
I would liken that to ZvP in the first 7-8 minutes of play - if you are completely unpressured - there is a best way to play, best patches to stack drones on, best amount of drones to transfer or not transfer, best way to build overlords and structure queen injects - etc - its incredibly important. With zerg its much easier to play by feel than protoss/terran (look at stephano) but you can play P/T like that a lot if you are comfortable with the game, if you played a lot (i feel there's a lot that you just cant get from WATCHING, no matter how much of it you do) though the first 5-10 minutes are usually structured in a very specific way, depending on the game, because it's very important to do so | ||
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
For example, right now I am trying to play PvZ without going for the air/templar army. Is it tough? Yes. Do I lose a lot compared to if I went air (which I already know how to do because I figured it out in beta)? Absolutely. But when I win it is way more satisfying than turtling to an air deathball behind cannons. On March 14 2013 23:31 covetousrat wrote: This is dead on accurate. Even at diamond there are a lot of players that are completely uncomfortable with what they are doing and are just following a build because a pro did it. I also see worrying about things they shouldn't be until they are more solid as a player. For example, zergs doing cutesy patrol stuff with their zerglings and focusing on creep spread while missing injects and getting supply blocked. Or for terran and protoss, doing all this ridiculous micro but getting massively behind in macro or focusing too much on little things for what level they are. I've won against terrans who have let their entire main army die to storms because they were stutter stepping a drop at an expansion that they could have just left there since it was already in range of workers. I obviously am far from perfect myself but this is the kind of stuff I notice a lot when I watch my replays.Say for example a new player starts sc2. The best advice eg a terran is to just play 3 rax 1 basing for like 50+- games to get a feel of the micro/ macro/ what works and not, Protoss to just 4 gate every game. Too many times I have seen lower level players try to copy pros by macroing which in fact you should start learning from 1 basing, 2 basing and 3 basing etc to get the feel of the whole thing. Once your higher level up you will know what to get at certain timing and scouting. Too many players to to learn too many things at once. | ||
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Obamanation666
United States70 Posts
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dailyaph
United States1 Post
Second, build orders are an important teaching tool for beginners. They give a framework with discrete, achievable goals so that the beginner can work on improving mechanics. To use FilterSC's Terran bronze-to-masters build order as an example, knowing that you need to drop your second CC by 3:45 and have 2 medivacs and 50 SCVs by 10:00 gives you a way to analyze replays. That way you can say, "Oh, I need to get that CC down faster," instead of a nebulous "I guess I needed to make more/better stuff." You can really only play by feel once you have a solid-enough grasp of fundamentals that the build-order-driven goals (e.g., build an oracle as fast as possible) are simply a tactical decision made in furtherance of an overall strategy (e.g., harass early to build an insurmountable macro lead). | ||
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TheSambassador
United States186 Posts
Build orders, in general, don't go past 7 or 8 minutes. After that, everybody is "playing by feel". Some info, like how much production your current economy can support, is vital and necessary to be playing efficiently. I would say that "playing by feel" would be more about not thinking about specific timings. For example, in ZvP, I don't know the exact timings that I need to worry about. I don't think "Ok, I saw their gas go down at 4:00, so now i can drone until 6:00 and then start pumping units". I just scout the gas, have a general idea of what they can do with that, and respond to what they do. There are definite benefits to knowing the perfect timings, but also this can make you more susceptible to metagaming(?). | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
Simple 1 gate fe PVT , okay you scout if you see hes not building an expo you cut probes and throw down 2 gates and a robo by 6:20. If you don't scout an expo you keep probing up and get a robo before adding your gates. (WOL) In both situations you aren't winging it...you are reacting to what he is doing...but you are still following a build. Builds go up until the 16/17 minute mark. There is no "winging" it in this game if you want to improve. | ||
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HeeroFX
United States2704 Posts
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psychotics
United States184 Posts
- vs toss early game: i open 11overpool make 4 lings scout and if standard play go into 3 base if something weird react. midgame: go muta lingbanes take control of map and get up as many bases as possible while threatening with mutas. prepare to switch tech according to the toss reaction to mutas late game: ultra viper ling corrupter (if colousus or voids are a threat). if ur looking for specific build orders ur really going to be just looking at drones vs game time instead of supply like other races do. you need to then go and figure out how many drones u can safely get out before common timing attacks hit and such as the immo/sentry cut drones at 60-64 zerg builds are really based on how many drones u need by "x" timing. and when u want ur important tech units out by. like geting 64 drones and infestors out with pathogen glands by 9:40 ingame. this only applys to standard macro play. if u want to do some sort of an allin or timing attack obviously theres a alot more into it then that | ||
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SoulSC2
New Zealand12 Posts
On March 15 2013 08:06 ROOTMinigun wrote: I dont understand the question. Reacting IS part of a build. Simple 1 gate fe PVT , okay you scout if you see hes not building an expo you cut probes and throw down 2 gates and a robo by 6:20. If you don't scout an expo you keep probing up and get a robo before adding your gates. (WOL) In both situations you aren't winging it...you are reacting to what he is doing...but you are still following a build. Builds go up until the 16/17 minute mark. There is no "winging" it in this game if you want to improve. Going along with this, I think a lot of players see builds as sequential lists, rather than the decision tree structures that they actually are. | ||
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Minigun
619 Posts
On March 15 2013 10:13 SoulSC2 wrote: Going along with this, I think a lot of players see builds as sequential lists, rather than the decision tree structures that they actually are. That's what I was looking for...100% this A build is a huge tree structure with many many branches. | ||
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emc
United States3088 Posts
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
And I know I inspired this post spiky. EDIT: However to contribute a bit more, I would definitely agree with Minigun as well. The decision making is part of the build as well. The top pros do 3 colossus timings all the time, they have specific defensive amounts of units they want to be able to take their 4th base. You can analyze replays and see that the top pro players all have very strict goals along the way, which that would be accurately defined as a build. | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
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