EPThttp://drop.sc/329404 <-- Recent replay where I could've executed my opening slightly better and I could've placed my robo closer to my ramp, but I still think I would've had trouble holding it off. Perhaps I would have enough energy on my sentries to forcefield my natural ramp for long enough until I could beat his army?
The HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 76
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Moobla
United States186 Posts
http://drop.sc/329404 <-- Recent replay where I could've executed my opening slightly better and I could've placed my robo closer to my ramp, but I still think I would've had trouble holding it off. Perhaps I would have enough energy on my sentries to forcefield my natural ramp for long enough until I could beat his army? | ||
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qapuk
United States71 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:33 Moobla wrote: If anyone goes 1gate expand in PvP I'd like to know if there is a way to save your natural nexus from a 4gate. Photon overcharge doesn't keep them off because they just pull back units shot by the cannon. If you think about the science behind this for a bit. You are investing 400 minerals for a nexus that provides the following: 1: Additional supply 2. Potential economics advantage 3. Can shoot defensive OP laser beam via overcharge of these three, (1) and (3) gives you direct/indirect defensive abilities. and number (2) is where you have to be careful, this is what seperate good and bad players. You want to be as greedy as possible but still stay alive. The safest way is obviously to stop making probes completely and invest your resource into three gateway. Be content with having 3-6 probes at natural. Play it safe! *Note: A good practice here is whenever you STOP making probe, add additional gateway accordingly. If you have 3-6 probes at natural, i'd stop and add ONE more gateway. This will help you macro out more units as your economic ability will allow you to support 4 gateways fully. I've always believed that adding tech here is just way too dangerous, you're investing resource into something that could have been 2-3 extra units. some champions here will say 1 gate expand robo gate gate, but i would not recommend that for non-professional/ladder strategy, it is just too greedy vs a 4 gate. So in summary. 1. Scouting is half the battle, know it is coming! 2. Don't play too greedy, Tech + Expo vs no tech + no expo is really really greedy you should not win unless he made a mistake. 3. Stop making probes, this is an all in, just survive this with the most minimalist lost, and you'll win. 4. Make units! It is really as simple as that. You need a minimum of 3 gateways. Instead of investing in tech, squeeze in an additional cycle of gateway units. Make pylons accordingly to not get supply block. Chronoboost, you have two of these with two nexus. Unlike WOL, MSC can make this viable vs 4 gate. You just gotta take and use all you can - "efficiently". Edit: I saw you edited with post and added a replay. I am going to watch it now and see what you did. | ||
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TarLaPaN
United States113 Posts
Here is a 'before' pic + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/jGE4WLhl.jpg) and after+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YVRqrgyl.jpg) I'm not sure if the gap in star station is one hex, wondering if anyone else has had a problem on this map. | ||
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Recksaw
United States23 Posts
On May 01 2013 12:29 TarLaPaN wrote: An absolutely ridiculous thing happened to me today on star station. I was using naniwa's PvZ build and walled off, leaving a zealot on hold, and 3-4 speedlings got through somehow and eventually cost me the game. Here is a 'before' pic + Show Spoiler + and after+ Show Spoiler + I'm not sure if the gap in star station is one hex, wondering if anyone else has had a problem on this map. The wall is only using the corner of the gateway, so it isn't a complete wall. If you would have put the gateway down one hex it would have been complete, 1 unit to block. | ||
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S7EFEN
86 Posts
Is there any way to reliably get a scout in when I need to be dropping my robo ? I've been neglecting it if there is any sort of aggression but sometimes 6 phoenix will fly in right as it's finishing resulting in a useless robo facility. If I scout a single gas I'll assume aggression also and try to confirm a 3g/4g rather than a FE and I'll open DT expand. Both of these set me up for a charge/archon + blink/VR midgame rather than coli/robo or VR/stargate based play, which I'm happy playing because I feel chargelot archon does well vs both robo and VR play, either adding templars+blink vs stargate or VRs vs robo. My question is, is this a solid setup in terms of scouting + response on the opener? Also, from my experience, charge+archon pushes midgame are quite solid against both lots of voids and single robo colossi builds (may just be my league though), how true is this up thru masters+? I've been trying to play a macro style to improve while also avoiding build mirrors in PvP, and this is what I've come up with in terms of avoiding being BO countered based on early game scouting. Suggestions? extra question - is mixing in a few HT + storm worthwhile vs anything other than voids? I NEVER see it in PvP unless against mass voids so I've assumed storm isn't worthwhile otherwise. | ||
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MysteryMeat1
United States3292 Posts
On May 01 2013 13:57 S7EFEN wrote: My decision to 1gateFE in PvP is generally gas dependent, meaning if I scout a 15/15 or 13/17 I'll assume DT/blink/stargate play or MSC+stalker aggression and thus I'm safe to expand and defend with gateways > twilight. Is there any way to reliably get a scout in when I need to be dropping my robo ? I've been neglecting it if there is any sort of aggression but sometimes 6 phoenix will fly in right as it's finishing resulting in a useless robo facility. If I scout a single gas I'll assume aggression also and try to confirm a 3g/4g rather than a FE and I'll open DT expand. Both of these set me up for a charge/archon + blink/VR midgame rather than coli/robo or VR/stargate based play, which I'm happy playing because I feel chargelot archon does well vs both robo and VR play, either adding templars+blink vs stargate or VRs vs robo. My question is, is this a solid setup in terms of scouting + response on the opener? Also, from my experience, charge+archon pushes midgame are quite solid against both lots of voids and single robo colossi builds (may just be my league though), how true is this up thru masters+? I've been trying to play a macro style to improve while also avoiding build mirrors in PvP, and this is what I've come up with in terms of avoiding being BO countered based on early game scouting. Suggestions? extra question - is mixing in a few HT + storm worthwhile vs anything other than voids? I NEVER see it in PvP unless against mass voids so I've assumed storm isn't worthwhile otherwise. I've been messing around with 1gate fe in the last couple of games. I like going more gates because it helps vs sg all-in with a cannons if you can identify early enough. Also on certain maps like whirlwind going chargelot archon immo ht and adding on vrs later seems really strong as long as you can deny their 3rd. Ht's are pretty good against pheonix after you get enough stalkers. They generally stop harrassing you and during a big battle 2-4hts with lots of energy usually can feedback every pheonix since they've been stockpiling energy. | ||
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Bahajinbo
Germany488 Posts
It's kinda difficult to engage. You have to micro your phoenix against the mutas and the corruptors try to kill your phoenix so the mutas can kill your tech & economy. I think, complete skytoss with void rays & phoenix is the best option, but what about the engagements? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On May 01 2013 21:30 Bahajinbo wrote: What do you do against mass muta & corruptor if you open up with FFE into phoenix in PvZ? It's kinda difficult to engage. You have to micro your phoenix against the mutas and the corruptors try to kill your phoenix so the mutas can kill your tech & economy. I think, complete skytoss with void rays & phoenix is the best option, but what about the engagements? Phoenix with some ground support (a few stalkers + cannons at home) is your best bet. I wouldn't try to reactively go pure skytoss against it, since voids are slow and mutas can easily just snipe them and prevent their numbers from growing too large even if you are doing your best to protect them. The best suggestion I have is to actually go on the offensive and hunt for mutas with phoenix, and harass their bases with zealots or something. You want to keep the mutas busy away from your base where they can cause damage. Here's a recent example I played: http://drop.sc/329548 On May 01 2013 13:57 S7EFEN wrote: My decision to 1gateFE in PvP is generally gas dependent, meaning if I scout a 15/15 or 13/17 I'll assume DT/blink/stargate play or MSC+stalker aggression and thus I'm safe to expand and defend with gateways > twilight. Is there any way to reliably get a scout in when I need to be dropping my robo ? I've been neglecting it if there is any sort of aggression but sometimes 6 phoenix will fly in right as it's finishing resulting in a useless robo facility. If I scout a single gas I'll assume aggression also and try to confirm a 3g/4g rather than a FE and I'll open DT expand. Both of these set me up for a charge/archon + blink/VR midgame rather than coli/robo or VR/stargate based play, which I'm happy playing because I feel chargelot archon does well vs both robo and VR play, either adding templars+blink vs stargate or VRs vs robo. My question is, is this a solid setup in terms of scouting + response on the opener? Also, from my experience, charge+archon pushes midgame are quite solid against both lots of voids and single robo colossi builds (may just be my league though), how true is this up thru masters+? I've been trying to play a macro style to improve while also avoiding build mirrors in PvP, and this is what I've come up with in terms of avoiding being BO countered based on early game scouting. Suggestions? extra question - is mixing in a few HT + storm worthwhile vs anything other than voids? I NEVER see it in PvP unless against mass voids so I've assumed storm isn't worthwhile otherwise. Scout with a hallucination, even if you go 1 gate FE -> robo -> 2 additional gates and build an obs asap you still should hallu scout since it'll be faster than the obs. Robo is never useless in the mid game. Observers are very important for scouting/anti scouting, keeping track of your opponent's army composition and movements, etc. Chargelot/archon does indeed counter VR play especially in the mid game. Against robo/colo, it's a bit more risky as you have a chance to break him before he gets too many colo (like 2 or less) but after that you need to tech switch. Against things that are not voids, I would not prioritize storm, meaning that if you play a standard game on 2-3 bases I wouldn't get storm before your first max. However if the game keeps going on and you get more bases and start acquiring a more expensive/gas intensive army it might not be a bad idea to have some storm in there. On May 01 2013 12:29 TarLaPaN wrote: An absolutely ridiculous thing happened to me today on star station. I was using naniwa's PvZ build and walled off, leaving a zealot on hold, and 3-4 speedlings got through somehow and eventually cost me the game. Here is a 'before' pic + Show Spoiler + and after+ Show Spoiler + I'm not sure if the gap in star station is one hex, wondering if anyone else has had a problem on this map. Try moving your entire wall 1-2 hex lower. | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On May 01 2013 05:33 Moobla wrote: If anyone goes 1gate expand in PvP I'd like to know if there is a way to save your natural nexus from a 4gate. Photon overcharge doesn't keep them off because they just pull back units shot by the cannon. http://drop.sc/329404 <-- Recent replay where I could've executed my opening slightly better and I could've placed my robo closer to my ramp, but I still think I would've had trouble holding it off. Perhaps I would have enough energy on my sentries to forcefield my natural ramp for long enough until I could beat his army? Your early BO does not seem optimized. I suggest looking at MC's 1 gate expand, he gets sentries much earlier than you ( with no supply block ! ), and 3 gates at 5', and delays the robo until 5'45. If he gets attacked, he'll use the photon overcharge to buy time for an immortal to pop ( plus 3 gates of units ). One thing I also want to mention is that in the event you lose your nexus to a 4 gate, like in your game.. you could drop a robo bay and colossus all-in your opponent. Since he 4 gated, it's doubtful he'll have enough tech to hold your push, especially if he expands out of it. It's true that investing in such an early nexus is risky, but I like to think of it that way: you get a pylon for free, which means that the actual nexus cost is 300. If you can use the photon overcharge to just kill ~2 stalkers and keep your nexus alive, then your investment has been worthwhile. The best with MC's build is that you have 3 sentries by the 6' mark, so if he attacks your expand and you can "trap" his units behind force fields, the photon overcharge is pretty much guranteed to kill a couple of them for free. At this point, even if you lose your nexus, at worst you'll have a slight tech/eco advantage. | ||
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Lemonayd
United States745 Posts
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Sated
England4983 Posts
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Xtreme94
Malaysia282 Posts
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Ben...
Canada3485 Posts
On May 02 2013 02:05 Xtreme94 wrote: Ooh I must check those videos out. Is this off forge expand? With all the Zergs doing that stupid mass upgraded ling into ultra crap basically blind this type of build would be incredibly potent. I shall investigate.Today Challenger League I saw Trap and Squirtle doing a build that like this : Stargate into Robo>Hide 2 Immortal and 2 Colossus and Push out with 7 Gates ...Is this the new 2 base all in? Edit: Also, I kept Klontas Mire unvetoed because I wanted to see how it is. So far have won a bunch with immortal/sentry all-ins with mothership core support. It seems quite potent on that map. | ||
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Salv
Canada3083 Posts
Basically, he didn't take a third base at regular timings, it came up at 7:30 minutes, and he instead spent all his money on drones and earlier gases to get a quick lair, hydralisk den, and overlord speed. He winds up making some lings/hydralisk, and because I thought it could be an early attack my third base doesn't come down until 12:00 minutes, at which point we both have 70 harvesters and around 120 supply. He techs to quick hive and gets vipers. His fourth and fifth are relatively late I suppose and while he contains me with his 200/200 army he goes to ultralisk. I think this is the same style that Leenock used against Hero, but I'm not sure. What's the key to beating this. I was really unsure how to read whether his 2base play was just going to be quick lair or for some cheese like 2 base swarm host. I also found that it's harder to take a third because he has hydralisk on the map a lot earlier. Any tips for this style? | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On May 02 2013 07:14 Salv wrote: I played a game versus a game named AcolyteBits - apparently a GM before season reset. It was a ZvP and it was really odd. Basically, he didn't take a third base at regular timings, it came up at 7:30 minutes, and he instead spent all his money on drones and earlier gases to get a quick lair, hydralisk den, and overlord speed. He winds up making some lings/hydralisk, and because I thought it could be an early attack my third base doesn't come down until 12:00 minutes, at which point we both have 70 harvesters and around 120 supply. He techs to quick hive and gets vipers. His fourth and fifth are relatively late I suppose and while he contains me with his 200/200 army he goes to ultralisk. I think this is the same style that Leenock used against Hero, but I'm not sure. What's the key to beating this. I was really unsure how to read whether his 2base play was just going to be quick lair or for some cheese like 2 base swarm host. I also found that it's harder to take a third because he has hydralisk on the map a lot earlier. Any tips for this style? I'm curious about stuff like this too. I don't really know exactly how to handle a Zerg that goes 2 base like this with a delayed third and doesn't try to all in you. I assume the theory is that he can drone off 2 bases while getting his tech up and be safe against 2 base Protoss stuff, then take his third, insta saturate it and have a good economy with his tech already up. My first impression is that Protoss could do the same and be fine since 2 base Protoss is good vs. 2 base Zerg. Could maybe just scout his tech and get your own tech earlier, build up more units and take a later third than usual in response? This is all just speculative on my part. I don't have any firm ideas on how this particular BO matchup works. | ||
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jcroisdale
United States1543 Posts
On May 02 2013 00:04 Lemonayd wrote: RSVP congratulations on qualifying for Shoutcraft America :o) Hopefully this encourages him to stop playing in tournaments for master level players, with 10$ payouts. | ||
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RiceAgainst
United States1849 Posts
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Venomsflame
United States613 Posts
On May 02 2013 10:25 jcroisdale wrote: Hopefully this encourages him to stop playing in tournaments for master level players, with 10$ payouts. Yo RSVP king of B&B he only takes top level tourneys | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
Do many people blind nexus first, let's say with a main base pylon (and possible forge) in case of scouting 6 pool? I get the whole 14 pool or later go nexus first (most maps) thing...but what are most people doing in pvz? | ||
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accaris
98 Posts
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