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On May 06 2015 11:30 OPDream wrote:
Im trying to master the single forge style in pvt. Usually if I see terran make vikings early, I transition to storm after 3 colossus.
My question is is +1 attack ->+1 armor ->+2+2 ->+3+3 a good upgrade order? I get +1 attack first because before storm I need my stalkers to defend against drops and with +1 attack you need 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers to one shot medivac. Then I transition to chargelot storm, so getting +1 armor makes sense to me. What do you think?
Another question is after the storm transition completes, what's next? Restart colossus production? Stay on the templar tech and add more immortals and archons? Share your opinion please!
Always get +1 armour first. 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers isnt a big deal because you shouldnt have that many in your natural anyways; just use 6 and 2 shot them. Why shouldn't you have all of your stalkers in your natural you ask? Because if the terran just attacks your natural, even with only 4 vikings you're going to die. After you get storm most protoss' do a timing since Terran shouldn't have that many ghosts, if any. Or yeah, you could resume col production and turtle up. Eventually start a stargate and go for tempests.
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On May 06 2015 11:35 -HuShang- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 11:30 OPDream wrote:
Im trying to master the single forge style in pvt. Usually if I see terran make vikings early, I transition to storm after 3 colossus.
My question is is +1 attack ->+1 armor ->+2+2 ->+3+3 a good upgrade order? I get +1 attack first because before storm I need my stalkers to defend against drops and with +1 attack you need 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers to one shot medivac. Then I transition to chargelot storm, so getting +1 armor makes sense to me. What do you think?
Another question is after the storm transition completes, what's next? Restart colossus production? Stay on the templar tech and add more immortals and archons? Share your opinion please! Always get +1 armour first. 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers isnt a big deal because you shouldnt have that many in your natural anyways; just use 6 and 2 shot them. Why shouldn't you have all of your stalkers in your natural you ask? Because if the terran just attacks your natural, even with only 4 vikings you're going to die. After you get storm most protoss' do a timing since Terran shouldn't have that many ghosts, if any. Or yeah, you could resume col production and turtle up. Eventually start a stargate and go for tempests.
I tend to disagree. Where stalkers should be? It depends on terran's army movement, that's your obs's job. If terran bring his vikings to attack, you should be able to see it and bring your stalkers in your main to deal with vikings. Also, if terran start early viking production, usually they won't bring vikings to attack until their +1 armor done. Any timing before that, the number of vikings is so low, you can just warpin some emergency stalkers, I would't consider it as a threat. And you should always have the number of stalkers that can one shot medivac after taking your 3rd, because with the game going on you need to deal with 4+ medivacs drop, and 6 stalkers is only good against 2 medivac drops.
If you get +1 armor first, what's your upgrade order?
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On May 06 2015 11:35 -HuShang- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 11:30 OPDream wrote:
Im trying to master the single forge style in pvt. Usually if I see terran make vikings early, I transition to storm after 3 colossus.
My question is is +1 attack ->+1 armor ->+2+2 ->+3+3 a good upgrade order? I get +1 attack first because before storm I need my stalkers to defend against drops and with +1 attack you need 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers to one shot medivac. Then I transition to chargelot storm, so getting +1 armor makes sense to me. What do you think?
Another question is after the storm transition completes, what's next? Restart colossus production? Stay on the templar tech and add more immortals and archons? Share your opinion please! Always get +1 armour first. 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers isnt a big deal because you shouldnt have that many in your natural anyways; just use 6 and 2 shot them. Why shouldn't you have all of your stalkers in your natural you ask? Because if the terran just attacks your natural, even with only 4 vikings you're going to die. After you get storm most protoss' do a timing since Terran shouldn't have that many ghosts, if any. Or yeah, you could resume col production and turtle up. Eventually start a stargate and go for tempests.
let's say that our mid-game army is colossus/stalker/a few sentries for Guardian Shield (i.e., prior to Charge & Storm) - do we still continue getting armor upgrades (i.e., past the +1, which I agree should be the first priority given almost all terrans include a healthy number of marines in their first push) if we see that the Terran's bio composition is shifting to mostly marauders (along with vikings)?
i'd think that weapons upgrades would become more important than armor upgrades (atleast with regards to stalkers and colossi, i.e., armored units) if we're facing mostly marauders, because the marauder has a much higher damage attack that has a longer cooldown. in other words, the impact of armor upgrades (on decreasing the DPS taken by our protoss army) seems to be much less when facing a Terran army that is primarily marauders (vs. a Terran army that includes a healthy number of marines). is this flawed thinking?
(you're probably right as i haven't been playing the game that long; it would just be helpful to understand the reasoning so i can make better in-game decisions)
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United States4883 Posts
On May 07 2015 04:05 dchaudh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2015 11:35 -HuShang- wrote:On May 06 2015 11:30 OPDream wrote:
Im trying to master the single forge style in pvt. Usually if I see terran make vikings early, I transition to storm after 3 colossus.
My question is is +1 attack ->+1 armor ->+2+2 ->+3+3 a good upgrade order? I get +1 attack first because before storm I need my stalkers to defend against drops and with +1 attack you need 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers to one shot medivac. Then I transition to chargelot storm, so getting +1 armor makes sense to me. What do you think?
Another question is after the storm transition completes, what's next? Restart colossus production? Stay on the templar tech and add more immortals and archons? Share your opinion please! Always get +1 armour first. 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers isnt a big deal because you shouldnt have that many in your natural anyways; just use 6 and 2 shot them. Why shouldn't you have all of your stalkers in your natural you ask? Because if the terran just attacks your natural, even with only 4 vikings you're going to die. After you get storm most protoss' do a timing since Terran shouldn't have that many ghosts, if any. Or yeah, you could resume col production and turtle up. Eventually start a stargate and go for tempests. let's say that our mid-game army is colossus/stalker/a few sentries for Guardian Shield (i.e., prior to Charge & Storm) - do we still continue getting armor upgrades (i.e., past the +1, which I agree should be the first priority given almost all terrans include a healthy number of marines in their first push) if we see that the Terran's bio composition is shifting to mostly marauders (along with vikings)? i'd think that weapons upgrades would become more important than armor upgrades (atleast with regards to stalkers and colossi, i.e., armored units) if we're facing mostly marauders, because the marauder has a much higher damage attack that has a longer cooldown. in other words, the impact of armor upgrades (on decreasing the DPS taken by our protoss army) seems to be much less when facing a Terran army that is primarily marauders (vs. a Terran army that includes a healthy number of marines). is this flawed thinking? (you're probably right as i haven't been playing the game that long; it would just be helpful to understand the reasoning so i can make better in-game decisions)
The typical pattern for single forge openings is +1 armor -> +1 attack, and then add a second forge and get +2/+2. Sometimes you can start +2 armor before adding in the second forge if you need the money for holding the 3rd. Unless you're doing some sort of early timing (pre-10:00), you want to get +1 armor first so that your units do better against medivac timings with primarily marines; once the Terran starts to get into mid game mode and mixing in lots of marauders, armor is not nearly as important.
If you're going colossus, you generally want to prioritize attack upgrades because colossus/stalker benefits more from those upgrades than armor. If you're playing templar (rare now), you want to prioritize armor since a large part of your army consists of chargelots/archons.
Also, to address the stalker thing: yes, just keep 6 stalkers in your main and position your army between the natural and 3rd. If a drop lands in the main, you can photon overcharge and warp in zealots to defend and take minimal damage (if it's a small drop). Doom drops (4+ medivacs) should be responded to by your entire army, warping in a few zealots at the 3rd if he sends something there. Try to keep track of the number of medivacs Terran has (+~2 every min) so that you know if the Terran is all-inning a doom drop or just doing a rather large drop.
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I'm going to try my luck here.... Stuchiu's GOAT bonus post has a list of amusingly named Protoss Builds. Any chance someone can link them to the BOs please?
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On May 07 2015 13:40 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 04:05 dchaudh wrote:On May 06 2015 11:35 -HuShang- wrote:On May 06 2015 11:30 OPDream wrote:
Im trying to master the single forge style in pvt. Usually if I see terran make vikings early, I transition to storm after 3 colossus.
My question is is +1 attack ->+1 armor ->+2+2 ->+3+3 a good upgrade order? I get +1 attack first because before storm I need my stalkers to defend against drops and with +1 attack you need 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers to one shot medivac. Then I transition to chargelot storm, so getting +1 armor makes sense to me. What do you think?
Another question is after the storm transition completes, what's next? Restart colossus production? Stay on the templar tech and add more immortals and archons? Share your opinion please! Always get +1 armour first. 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers isnt a big deal because you shouldnt have that many in your natural anyways; just use 6 and 2 shot them. Why shouldn't you have all of your stalkers in your natural you ask? Because if the terran just attacks your natural, even with only 4 vikings you're going to die. After you get storm most protoss' do a timing since Terran shouldn't have that many ghosts, if any. Or yeah, you could resume col production and turtle up. Eventually start a stargate and go for tempests. let's say that our mid-game army is colossus/stalker/a few sentries for Guardian Shield (i.e., prior to Charge & Storm) - do we still continue getting armor upgrades (i.e., past the +1, which I agree should be the first priority given almost all terrans include a healthy number of marines in their first push) if we see that the Terran's bio composition is shifting to mostly marauders (along with vikings)? i'd think that weapons upgrades would become more important than armor upgrades (atleast with regards to stalkers and colossi, i.e., armored units) if we're facing mostly marauders, because the marauder has a much higher damage attack that has a longer cooldown. in other words, the impact of armor upgrades (on decreasing the DPS taken by our protoss army) seems to be much less when facing a Terran army that is primarily marauders (vs. a Terran army that includes a healthy number of marines). is this flawed thinking? (you're probably right as i haven't been playing the game that long; it would just be helpful to understand the reasoning so i can make better in-game decisions) The typical pattern for single forge openings is +1 armor -> +1 attack, and then add a second forge and get +2/+2. Sometimes you can start +2 armor before adding in the second forge if you need the money for holding the 3rd. Unless you're doing some sort of early timing (pre-10:00), you want to get +1 armor first so that your units do better against medivac timings with primarily marines; once the Terran starts to get into mid game mode and mixing in lots of marauders, armor is not nearly as important. If you're going colossus, you generally want to prioritize attack upgrades because colossus/stalker benefits more from those upgrades than armor. If you're playing templar (rare now), you want to prioritize armor since a large part of your army consists of chargelots/archons. Also, to address the stalker thing: yes, just keep 6 stalkers in your main and position your army between the natural and 3rd. If a drop lands in the main, you can photon overcharge and warp in zealots to defend and take minimal damage (if it's a small drop). Doom drops (4+ medivacs) should be responded to by your entire army, warping in a few zealots at the 3rd if he sends something there. Try to keep track of the number of medivacs Terran has (+~2 every min) so that you know if the Terran is all-inning a doom drop or just doing a rather large drop.
Maybe just personal style, to me, after taking 3rd, 6 stalkers to defend drops is outdated long time ago, more and more terran do a timing attack when they have +1+1, 8 medivacs and some widow mines, if you only have 6 stalkers in the main, and depends on warpin zealots and pulling your main army back to defend, you will get rekt by this timing.
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On May 07 2015 13:40 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 04:05 dchaudh wrote:On May 06 2015 11:35 -HuShang- wrote:On May 06 2015 11:30 OPDream wrote:
Im trying to master the single forge style in pvt. Usually if I see terran make vikings early, I transition to storm after 3 colossus.
My question is is +1 attack ->+1 armor ->+2+2 ->+3+3 a good upgrade order? I get +1 attack first because before storm I need my stalkers to defend against drops and with +1 attack you need 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers to one shot medivac. Then I transition to chargelot storm, so getting +1 armor makes sense to me. What do you think?
Another question is after the storm transition completes, what's next? Restart colossus production? Stay on the templar tech and add more immortals and archons? Share your opinion please! Always get +1 armour first. 10 stalkers instead of 11 stalkers isnt a big deal because you shouldnt have that many in your natural anyways; just use 6 and 2 shot them. Why shouldn't you have all of your stalkers in your natural you ask? Because if the terran just attacks your natural, even with only 4 vikings you're going to die. After you get storm most protoss' do a timing since Terran shouldn't have that many ghosts, if any. Or yeah, you could resume col production and turtle up. Eventually start a stargate and go for tempests. let's say that our mid-game army is colossus/stalker/a few sentries for Guardian Shield (i.e., prior to Charge & Storm) - do we still continue getting armor upgrades (i.e., past the +1, which I agree should be the first priority given almost all terrans include a healthy number of marines in their first push) if we see that the Terran's bio composition is shifting to mostly marauders (along with vikings)? i'd think that weapons upgrades would become more important than armor upgrades (atleast with regards to stalkers and colossi, i.e., armored units) if we're facing mostly marauders, because the marauder has a much higher damage attack that has a longer cooldown. in other words, the impact of armor upgrades (on decreasing the DPS taken by our protoss army) seems to be much less when facing a Terran army that is primarily marauders (vs. a Terran army that includes a healthy number of marines). is this flawed thinking? (you're probably right as i haven't been playing the game that long; it would just be helpful to understand the reasoning so i can make better in-game decisions) you want to get +1 armor first so that your units do better against medivac timings with primarily marines; once the Terran starts to get into mid game mode and mixing in lots of marauders, armor is not nearly as important.
Also, generally you won't have any upgrades done against the medivac timing, unless you add the forge before 3gates, robo bay and twilight. It's usually done at the same time when ur blink research finish，~11min.
Imo, getting +1 armor first when you play blink colossus is because you already plan to go chargelot in the midgame, and since chargelot is much more powerful if your armor is ahead of terran's attack by 1 upgrade, getting +1 attack instead of +2 armor as followup just doesn't make sense to me.
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What I do (and saw Zest do) is get a single forge after the robo bay at 7:00-7:30, and start researching all the armor upgrades, going straight into +3 armor. Then when you're on 3 bases you can add a 2nd forge and start researching weapon upgrades as well since at that point they're much cheaper and faster to research and they make some difference.
With this style you stop at 3 colossi and then switch to immortal /high templar production (you resume colossus production later on, in your endgame army you want around 6 of them). Twilight council starts at 7:30, you go for blink and then charge immediately after.
Going for +1 armor >> +1 weapons >>+2armor&weapons makes sense to me only if you get a very late twilight council (or a very early first forge). So that with the twilight council you unlock the +2 upgrades only when you need them.
I agree that 6 stalkers are way too few to defend from drops in the late midgame. What are you gonna do against a doom drop? You need all your stalkers there, i.e. around 12. That allows you to oneshot medivacs. Any count lower than that actually encourages the terran player to drop on top of your stalkers because you'll lose all of them in return of maybe a full medivac, which is a good trade for the terran.
If the terran attacks with vikings at the same time, first you need to scout that with your observers /hallucinated phoenixes/oracles/"suicide zealots". If it's few vikings (early midgame) you can simply defend with overcharge by targeting the vikings, or warping additional stalkers there. If it's a lot of them, you should be in a more advanced stage of the game where you already have storms.
High templars and cannons are in general a much more supply and cost-efficient defense against drops than stalkers, once you're on 3 bases with lots of warpgates.
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United States4883 Posts
On May 07 2015 15:02 OPDream wrote:
Also, generally you won't have any upgrades done against the medivac timing, unless you add the forge before 3gates, robo bay and twilight. It's usually done at the same time when ur blink research finish，~11min.
Imo, getting +1 armor first when you play blink colossus is because you already plan to go chargelot in the midgame, and since chargelot is much more powerful if your armor is ahead of terran's attack by 1 upgrade, getting +1 attack instead of +2 armor as followup just doesn't make sense to me.
You're right about the +1 armor timing, but it's still more useful during the "medivac timing" stage of the game where Terran still has primarily marines and you don't have a lot of colossi. +2 armor into double forge is also viable; a large part of depends on how easily you can take your 3rd and start up your second forge. Generally, if your second forge is delayed (even or behind, usually), you'll go for the +2 armor first, whereas if you start to pull ahead, lining up +2/+2 is nicer.
EDIT: Teoita has notified me that armor is almost always better these days. Still, I maintain that if you're ahead, lining up +2/+2 is better.
On May 07 2015 23:00 KingAlphard wrote:
I agree that 6 stalkers are way too few to defend from drops in the late midgame. What are you gonna do against a doom drop? You need all your stalkers there, i.e. around 12. That allows you to oneshot medivacs. Any count lower than that actually encourages the terran player to drop on top of your stalkers because you'll lose all of them in return of maybe a full medivac, which is a good trade for the terran.
If the terran attacks with vikings at the same time, first you need to scout that with your observers /hallucinated phoenixes/oracles/"suicide zealots". If it's few vikings (early midgame) you can simply defend with overcharge by targeting the vikings, or warping additional stalkers there. If it's a lot of them, you should be in a more advanced stage of the game where you already have storms.
High templars and cannons are in general a much more supply and cost-efficient defense against drops than stalkers, once you're on 3 bases with lots of warpgates.
It's been a few months since I've actually played and watched SC2, so I may be a little behind the times. However, I have always seen ~6-8 stalkers in the main for the first ~6 medivacs with army pivoting. After that, (~13:00+), you really should be defending with either cannons and templar or larger counts of stalker/zealot in your main. If you're getting doom dropped and attacked at the 3rd/nat with vikings, the game is obviously much more developed than the "medivac timing" phase of the game, and my comment about 6 stalkers in the main is unimportant.
Which is a roundabout way of getting back to why +1 attack is not important as a first upgrade, but viable as a second upgrade instead of +2 armor.
EDIT: Teoita has informed me that doom drops are now complete bullshit and that Protoss players split the fuck out of their armies, and it's a super fragile defense; you probably need a lot of stuff in your main. I'm don't miss PvT at all.
On May 07 2015 14:16 Maestro85 wrote:
I'm going to try my luck here.... Stuchiu's GOAT bonus post has a list of amusingly named Protoss Builds. Any chance someone can link them to the BOs please?
This best I can do for you is this: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/447483-the-great-book-of-protoss-bullshit
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Italy12248 Posts
See this is what happens when you switch to the filthy bug race. I pretty much agree with Alphard and OPDream.
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EDIT: Teoita has informed me that doom drops are now complete bullshit and that Protoss players split the fuck out of their armies, and it's a super fragile defense; you probably need a lot of stuff in your main. I'm don't miss PvT at all.
This is why I play phoenix colossus a lot in the current map pool ^^
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My understanding is that you only prioritize an attack upgrade if you're planning to all in off two bases, otherwise you generally want armor more.
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Italy12248 Posts
Tbh if you are going to do a two-base allin you're better off going as quickly as possible with just a couple of colossi and maaaaaybe blink, rather than wait for upgrades. If you do that you run the risk of the terran just having medivacs flying everywhere and really messing with your timing.
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The way I see it, if you want +3 attack for colossi asap, you're probably doing a colossus heavy build and should go double forge. That's because you also need +3 armor for zealots - the difference is massive and chargelots will be your meatshield anyway. You see pros going up to 25+ chargelots when they first max out with 3-3. Having a massive amount of zealots is key with this strategy.
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I find that in the current meta terran players tend to always build widow mines in the midgame. So I don't really like getting too many zealots. Against that style maybe defensive cannons are better if you want to play passive.
Then again, if you warp in only zealots you're gonna bank gas, unless you are staying on 4 gases for a long time, Pigbaby style. So you usually get high templars too at that point.
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can a 10 g 3 gate all in work vs a proxy 2 gate?
I just had this happen to me and I think if i had just bought time for the 2nd stalker and then immediately base traded I may have been ok
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On May 08 2015 04:16 shizznit wrote:
can a 10 g 3 gate all in work vs a proxy 2 gate?
I just had this happen to me and I think if i had just bought time for the 2nd stalker and then immediately base traded I may have been ok
Are you asking if a faster gate and gas than normal will stop a proxy O.o
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On May 08 2015 04:16 shizznit wrote:
can a 10 g 3 gate all in work vs a proxy 2 gate?
I just had this happen to me and I think if i had just bought time for the 2nd stalker and then immediately base traded I may have been ok
10 gate is a pretty good opening against proxy gates. The best thing would be 10 gate 10 gas because it allow you to start both stalker and msc immediately after the core finishes, but 10g into 3 gate is done with 12/13 gas so you can't do that.
I think you can do 2 things, one is basetrading, as you said, with a mothership core and 2 stalkers + all your probes. Another is to just chronoboost zealots from your single gateway and the mothership core once the core finishes. I've seen Rain hold it that way once. The idea is that you survive until overcharge without losing too many probes and then you add additional gateways (warpgate should finish at some point too).
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On May 08 2015 04:22 -HuShang- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 04:16 shizznit wrote:
can a 10 g 3 gate all in work vs a proxy 2 gate?
I just had this happen to me and I think if i had just bought time for the 2nd stalker and then immediately base traded I may have been ok
Are you asking if a faster gate and gas than normal will stop a proxy O.o
he has 2 gates and I have one, yes I am
also http://drop.sc/398580 can someone tell me why I always lose late game pvp, I really dont understand this matchup
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On May 08 2015 04:26 shizznit wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 04:22 -HuShang- wrote:On May 08 2015 04:16 shizznit wrote:
can a 10 g 3 gate all in work vs a proxy 2 gate?
I just had this happen to me and I think if i had just bought time for the 2nd stalker and then immediately base traded I may have been ok
Are you asking if a faster gate and gas than normal will stop a proxy O.o he has 2 gates and I have one, yes I am also http://drop.sc/398580 can someone tell me why I always lose late game pvp, I really dont understand this matchup
You have a faster gate than with a 13 gate. I don't really understand why you're asking the question tbh. Ill take a look at that replay.
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EPT
