EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 338
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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No gravitas here
United Kingdom4 Posts
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PtitDrogo
France162 Posts
This is of course not optimal at all, if the zerg just clic on your probe with a drone you cant do shit since you spent all of that money on a gas and a gateway/zealot, but you would be surprised how many times it actually works (and then you follow that up with a one base 5 gate +1 it's fucking glorious). If you don't really wanna be that dirty, I would say that not mining the gas, chronoboosting a zealot to harass the Zerg and then picking an expo behind it is the best way to deal with 3 hatchs, a zealot between the mineral patchs is impossible to deal with effectivly without a queen and a zerg that goes 3 hatchs before pool isn't going to have one for a long time. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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ZeromuS
Canada13379 Posts
On April 08 2015 06:15 PtitDrogo wrote: If you scout at 13 and scout that theres no pool, you can totally canon rush it actually ^^ ( I'm assuming you're not gonna mine gas when you see an hatch, since mining gas quickly is usually not rly good vs hatch first). I usually chrono a Zealot after adding a late forge and then you can canon rush kind of late but still quickly enough vs 3 hatch before pool. This is of course not optimal at all, if the zerg just clic on your probe with a drone you cant do shit since you spent all of that money on a gas and a gateway/zealot, but you would be surprised how many times it actually works (and then you follow that up with a one base 5 gate +1 it's fucking glorious). If you don't really wanna be that dirty, I would say that not mining the gas, chronoboosting a zealot to harass the Zerg and then picking an expo behind it is the best way to deal with 3 hatchs, a zealot between the mineral patchs is impossible to deal with effectivly without a queen and a zerg that goes 3 hatchs before pool isn't going to have one for a long time. You've been posting a lot PtitDrogo, I've gone ahead and given you a blue background <3 Thanks for all your contributions to our forum :D | ||
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PtitDrogo
France162 Posts
Oh, thanks for the blue background btw ^^ | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
Forgot replay, here it is: http://drop.sc/396141 | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
It's not like you got anything in exchange for that. Your sentry push was more than 1 minute late, so it did zero damage. You started blink extremely early but you didn't chronoboost it and you still had only 3 stalkers when it finished, which is useless. Also your +2 was very late (it should finish around at the same time as blink). Even then I think you had a stronger army than the zerg's one at 13:30 when the big engagement happened. Your mistake there was that you abandoned the high ground where you could have made a concave to minimize fungal damage and forcefielded off the hydras. The only way you could lose was to get all the sentries caught by a fungal which is exactly what happened. I think you massively overestimated his army there, even if you looked at the army values they were the same and it's not like he had a better unit composition. | ||
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Carefoot
Canada410 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
I also try to just play counter 4-gate and rely on defenders advantage, which sometimes works but sometimes he seems to have just enough to brake me. Maybe this is just poor execution on my side, and I don't really have that bad win % vs it. But I'm still not sure if there is a better way to kill it. Haven't seen it in a pro game in a long time either. One thing I've been thinking about is chronoing sentries. I'm not sure if this is reliable though, and I haven't tested it yet. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
DTs as you pointed out are not a solid answer, although in low- mid masters it probably works >80% of the times. Reactive 4 gate is possibly the best one, you should go 3 chronoboosts on probes, then once you scout the 3 gate you chronoboost the mothership core once and save everything else for warpgate. Don't skip the zealot if you can (you should always start it, like you do vs terran or zerg, it's very good against proxy gateways too) and stop at 20 probes (16 + 4 on gas). Build 3 stalkers from your 1st gateway, go up to 4 gateways and warpgate will be ready at 5:50 (as soon as the 3rd stalker pops). Obviously you need overcharge to survive. Once you hit your 1st warp in you can start to try to get free damage on zealots at the edge of overcharge. When overcharge expires you should have your 2nd warp in ready and at that point you should be outnumbering him. Naturally, you still need to micro decently to hold. There isn't a reactive hard counter to this all in. After you hold, I recommend to saturate your gases and transition into blink asap, then play out the game normally with a strong lead. Though, I think that attacking is the best choice since he doesn't have overcharge nor gas to tech to something. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24192 Posts
On April 12 2015 23:56 Lazermonkey wrote: Is there any consensus about what to do when playing standard 2-gas PvP opening and scouting 10/11-3gate-shenanigans? I sometimes try to rush DT with mixed results. Sometimes its autowin and sometimes he predicts it and proxys a robo which I may or may not kill in time. I also try to just play counter 4-gate and rely on defenders advantage, which sometimes works but sometimes he seems to have just enough to brake me. Maybe this is just poor execution on my side, and I don't really have that bad win % vs it. But I'm still not sure if there is a better way to kill it. Haven't seen it in a pro game in a long time either. One thing I've been thinking about is chronoing sentries. I'm not sure if this is reliable though, and I haven't tested it yet. If you went for a 2 gates opener (sentry/stalker-stalker or 3 stalkers) you have a good chance of holding it, especially if you chronoboosted the two stalkers -it allows you to defend against the zealot+stalker wave quite handily. Once you identify it you need to cut on gas mining (I usually keep 2 on each gas or even 2/1), and immediately add gates for a total of 4. You want to get the additional gates before you use overcharge since the duration of overcharge is less than the time it takes for a warpgate to complete (65 + 10 sec). Obviously, chrono WG as much as possible. The first fight after overcharge expires can be tricky, pull probes if needed. His all-in will then run out of steam since he's on a very low eco (usually 14 probes mining minerals + 1 assim) and 3 gates against your 4. You can then transition into blink and agressively deny his expand while getting your own (he shouldn't have much gas units at home) or go into passive robo play. In both cases, you should enjoy a solid tech and eco lead. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
With a 250 gas builds, I've been able to make dt rushes and robo rushes (wg + msc + robo before units) work. With the dt rush, you want to send your probe in at about 5:30 in order to proxy a pylon (ideally hidden) and get dts in his mineral line asap. The reason is if he has a robo and you hit before he can chrono boost an obs, he's rekt. If you get a robo, I usually make a few stalkers, but mostly chrono boost several immortals out - immortals will wreck the stalkers and zealots kited without too much trouble, if need be pull a few probes and it shouldn't be a hard fight at all. You may need a warp prism to get out of your base though (i.e. one maps where your natural is down the ramp) if your opponent is very careful and tries to contain you, but I don't think that too common. If you're doing a 200 gas builds with 2 gates, a 5 stalker rush should be enough to give you a game winning edge. You should be able to kill his early units with ease if he tries to get inside your base asap. If he does a nonsensical delayed push with a "safer" (i.e. more distant) proxy pylon, you will have photon overcharge for even longer. It's even possible to go into blink behind this once your 5 stalkers come out without getting rekt. I believe a 3 stalker rush with chrono boosts on wg should be more than enough as well. Last but not least, you can also do the robo rush here if you skipped the 2nd gate. Admittedly, I've never tried to do a straight up counter 4 gate with 4 probes gas. That sounds really good as well, especially against gimmicky players who fake the 10g just to expand behind it. Although it's possible to do that with the 200 gas stalker rush builds I've mentioned (actually, now that I think about it, I may have done something along those lines a few times) or if you take probes off gas with a 250 gas builds. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
3 stalkers into more stalkers and 3 warpgates is probably overall the best build you can go for against that (naturally my first response was meant if you opened 1 gate), although you can still lose if you play too greedy thinking that it's a default win or mismicro. Talking about blind counters, proxy stargate is also pretty effective. The oracle gets in his base right after his first warp in, so he won't be able to defend and lose 10+ probes (out of 17). Then you activate overcharge, go up to 3 warpgates and win. I believe that robo rush is a bad response. You might get 1 immortal out, yes, but because you invested 200/100 into the robo, you'll have almost no gateway units. The 3-gater can just focus it down using zealots to tank. It becomes worth it only if you get to at least 2+ immortals, but you should die earlier than that. The problem with dts is not that he gets a robo in his main base, but if he proxies it with a far away pylon that you can't find. An expert 3-gater will sniff dts almost immediately and finish his robo before you are even able to warp them in. | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
On April 13 2015 01:46 KingAlphard wrote: I don't think that sentry- stalker stalker is that good honestly, because with the sentry you can't really do anything other than delaying his pylon above the ramp for 15 seconds, but he will still be able to warp in in the low ground anyway. 3 stalkers into more stalkers and 3 warpgates is probably overall the best build you can go for against that (naturally my first response was meant if you opened 1 gate), although you can still lose if you play too greedy thinking that it's a default win or mismicro. Talking about blind counters, proxy stargate is also pretty effective. The oracle gets in his base right after his first warp in, so he won't be able to defend and lose 10+ probes (out of 17). Then you activate overcharge, go up to 3 warpgates and win. I believe that robo rush is a bad response. You might get 1 immortal out, yes, but because you invested 200/100 into the robo, you'll have almost no gateway units. The 3-gater can just focus it down using zealots to tank. It becomes worth it only if you get to at least 2+ immortals, but you should die earlier than that. The problem with dts is not that he gets a robo in his main base, but if he proxies it with a far away pylon that you can't find. An expert 3-gater will sniff dts almost immediately and finish his robo before you are even able to warp them in. "You might get 1 immortals out"? Not at all. You've got the wrong idea. You are actually sure to get 2 immortals out by the time photon overcharge expires because you can buy a lot of time with photon overcharge - remember, we're talking about a robo that starts at 4:00 or earlier, chrono boost immortals out and the problem is solved. You can make about 2 stalkers before wg finishes when you do this iirc (maybe 1-2 chronos on wg, I can't recall.. doesn't matter much though). You stay on 2 gates and make some stalkers. The 10 gate player will definitely make some stalkers because a 3 gate with nothing but zealots won't be that efficient, since this isn't a k4g where you pulll probes off gas. As for the dt build, what I learned is that you can still do relatively reliable damage if warp in dts in their base as early as 6:20. While the other player can proxy a robo, he won't be able to deny your pylon inside his base if you send your probe in at the right time. This is very different from a more standard dt build where you get dts much much later - to be honest, I personally never do pvp dt builds that don't get a very early twilight council. | ||
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Xaeldaren
Ireland588 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
The issue with robo is that even if you hold you have no counter attack options, you can only expand, which is a pity considering you're that far ahead. I almost feel like it's better to hold with void rays than immortals, since they are more microable too. As for the dts, if you have dts in your mineral line as a 3-gater you don't care, you just pull all your workers and attack. If you hit at 6:20 he will have hit at least 2 warp ins, which means 9 gateway units. You will have only 2 dts, a mothership core and maybe a stalker which you usually already sacrificed while buying time for overcharge. As soon as overcharge expires he can start kiting the DTs while focusing down all your probes, barely losing anything and then as soon as the observer pops out he can kill the dts too and win the game. | ||
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Daimai
Sweden762 Posts
On April 07 2015 22:34 Teoita wrote: You can't react to 3hatch before pool. Either you open forge and cannon rush it, or you open something else and the zerg is just ahead. That said, something stupid and risky like the tasteless build can be ok because it's so odd and unusual that whatever advantage the zerg has might disappear if he gets caught off-guard. Why doesn't every zerg open 3 hatch before pool then? | ||
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vhapter
Brazil677 Posts
It may not seem like the most intuitive way to deal with a 10g - like a said before, you can't punish a fake 10g into an expansion properly as far as I know -, but if your opponent isn't relying on that sort of gimmick, you can still do well in straight up fights. I've been on both sides. I think it comes down to knowing what you're doing if you're the defending player and not making any major micro mistakes. I recall doing a 10g once against another protoss on Nimbus (my benchmarks were pretty sharp too) and my opponent got a really early robo. I almost lost the game, but I remember his build wasn't as sharp as mine and he mismicroed his units too, otherwise I would've lost. Needless to say, I've also managed to hold off 10 gates with this build. As for voidrays, I won't say anything because I never tried that. For you to beat a dt rush with 10g, you need to react really quickly without knowing for sure it's dts. A low stalker count can also be due to a quick stargate, or even the robo build I mentioned above. If you proxy a robo against the robo rush I suggested, you'll have less stalkers and that weakens your push. If they don't notice it right away or delay their robo - say at 5:30 -, you'll have a field day. If they try to build a robo in their main, you'll probably straight up win the game. If they proxy a robo and pull probes, you can still make do if you go 3 gates. I like that because you can defend with dts and attack at the same time, then warp in 3 more units if you buy enough time and fight with a few more probes, about 5 gateway units and a msc vs 9 units or maybe less if you manage to kill one with photon overcharge by baiting the other player and/or possibly kill one with your dt. If the other protoss isn't really good at 10 gating, he'll probably straight up die anyway. Remember you'll have some spare chrono boosts if you're going dts anyway, so you can chrono boost your gates after the first warp in round as well to make things more manageable. So yeah, all of these strategies have worked in my games. If you try to do a dt rush instead of something else - whatever your reason to do so is -, which was also part of the question, I believe getting a well-timed in-base pylon is crucial. The most reliable way to beat this strategy is probably doing a 5 stalker rush, but it still boils down to you doing the right things and execution. All of these responses are much better than straight up dying to the push, so I believe they're worth mentioning. Even pros have lost to dt rushes when opening 10g - let alone the old-fashioned 4g that hits much much later. | ||
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