|
Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. |
On April 21 2015 14:17 insitelol wrote:
Thanks for the answer! What do you think about teching to voids? or immortals? or canceling your 2nd gas and going for 3-4 gate yourself and holding it with combat units w/o sentries?
if you go immortals or voids you will probably just die vs a 3 gate. 4 gate you could hold with solid mechanics and a crisp build but why make it hard on yourself. If anything you should go for a stargate and get an oracle because you dont get a msc with the 3 gate or 4 gate so oracles wont be contested by anything.
If you cancel your gas and try to hold with 3-4 gates your warp gate will be later and you have no advantage. Bad idea ;p
|
|
|
PvP question - what is the best transition after opening Blink? I always seem behind when I don't enough done with the Blink stalkers...
|
PvP Question:
Say both open SG and both players start making Phoenix.. both players expand....
Let's say both players is to make mass phoenix + harass...
Question: Is it better to add a second SG for more phoenix production or is it better to add a quicker fleet beacon for range??
If you have range upgrade... how would you go about it to engage their phoenix?
I haven't had much experience in phoenix wars but I want to explore this option...
|
On April 23 2015 12:27 PiPiGranDe wrote:
PvP Question:
Say both open SG and both players start making Phoenix.. both players expand....
Let's say both players is to make mass phoenix + harass...
Question: Is it better to add a second SG for more phoenix production or is it better to add a quicker fleet beacon for range??
If you have range upgrade... how would you go about it to engage their phoenix?
I haven't had much experience in phoenix wars but I want to explore this option...
I'm 90% sure this old day[9] analysis of pheonix vs pheonix is still accurate here. http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-527/
according to his show, second SG b4 FB for range with archon follow up for splash.
|
On April 23 2015 12:27 PiPiGranDe wrote:
PvP Question:
Say both open SG and both players start making Phoenix.. both players expand....
Let's say both players is to make mass phoenix + harass...
Question: Is it better to add a second SG for more phoenix production or is it better to add a quicker fleet beacon for range??
If you have range upgrade... how would you go about it to engage their phoenix?
I haven't had much experience in phoenix wars but I want to explore this option...
Get a fleet beacon first and then a 2nd Stargate immediately after. You can afford this because once you expand your gas income becomes 2x higher. You should get those buildings as soon as possible after your nexus is finished, but without stopping chronoboost on phoenixes.
The reason why I say you should get range first is because even if you have 2-3 less phoenixes you will still win engagements convincingly as long as you kite properly. So what you should do is to go for a timing which hits right after range finishes. If he went for a late range, you should be able to win immediately. Poke forward and if he pulls back with the phoenixes, you just ignore overcharge and lift a few probes in his mineral line. Be ready to spam ESC if he tries to engage you, otherwise when you move away your phoenixes, some will be stuck in the air lifting a probe. Otherwise , if he tries to engage you, you pull back and kite. You need good reflexes , because if you pull back too slowly and he gets in range with his phoenixes you probably lose everything.
Camping on stargates if phoenixes are out of position is also really good, if you're lucky you can catch some of them for free as they pop out.
Of course if you do that and he went fleet beacon too it might end up really badly, so you should try to scout that before. That's why having a sentry in Phoenix v Phoenix is really useful, it's the cheapest way to scout without committing your real units. Hallucinated phoenixes can also be useful in fights to tank the first few shots and get you an edge.
If you get a 2nd stargate first, and you survive from the "range timing" that your opponent should do without taking any damage, then you should be ahead by 2 phoenixes in a mirror situation, from a purely "production capability" standpoint. However the truth is that gas doesn't come out of nowhere. Having a later 2nd stargate allows you to also bank enough gas to get +1 air (right before your 2nd stargate production kicks in) while your opponent can't because 2 stargate production spends all your 4 gas income.
I wouldn't get archons as the first follow up unless either me or my opponent want to go for a timing. In a passive game, keep as hts the first you warp in (up to 8 i guess, which can feedback up to 32 phoenixes), and morph in archons the following ones.
Also worth to note that now that tempests are a lot weaker, a carrier switch instead of a templar switch might be a thing. Carriers wreck phoenixes.
|
On April 23 2015 08:53 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:
PvP question - what is the best transition after opening Blink? I always seem behind when I don't enough done with the Blink stalkers...
With a 1 gate blink build, you have enough gas to sneak in a tech at around 6:00-6:10, between your 3rd stalker and the moment when you warp in your first round of stalkers. So at that point you already choose your first follow up, since you shouldn't get 3 different techs on one base. Often it's a safety robo, which weakens your ability to be aggressive (unless your opponent went DTs, then it makes it worth it). It's the best follow up to simply macro with, since it gives you direct access to colossus tech as well once you have expanded.
Other follow ups can be proxy stargate, which you can use to break an opponent on 2 bases with a multipronged attack, or even proxy DTs, although in that case I'd rather just skip and fake blink to save more gas.
Another thing you can do is don't get any tech and get a 4th gateway instead to be really aggressive. Sometimes you still end up in an even game after it, but you need at least to force your opponent to stay on 1 base for a long time. Then the best thing you can do is expand and get a robo to work on a midgame composition.
I've also tried sometimes a phoenix follow up against someone who just had robo tech, but I'm not sure about it, and I haven't really seen it at pro level. Late phoenixes usually suck.
|
Italy12246 Posts
On April 23 2015 12:46 Xenodore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 12:27 PiPiGranDe wrote:
PvP Question:
Say both open SG and both players start making Phoenix.. both players expand....
Let's say both players is to make mass phoenix + harass...
Question: Is it better to add a second SG for more phoenix production or is it better to add a quicker fleet beacon for range??
If you have range upgrade... how would you go about it to engage their phoenix?
I haven't had much experience in phoenix wars but I want to explore this option... I'm 90% sure this old day[9] analysis of pheonix vs pheonix is still accurate here. http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-527/according to his show, second SG b4 FB for range with archon follow up for splash.
tbh that daily is pretty outdated. I think (im not sure, im god awful at phoenix mirrors so i never bother with them) that overcharge alone now should let you consistently get range before the second stargate. Honestly at the pro level games dont even end up in phoenix wars, and most players seem to be able to get like 4-5 phoenixes and then go ground in stargate mirrors. I'm not sure wether that can be done consistently against all the wierd stuff you might face on ladder though.
|
If both open phoenixes then you can't stop phoenix production until you're on 3 bases unless you want to go all in, usually without blink and in the early game. It's still bad but it can work just because scouting in phoenix vs phoenix is really risky (you will have 1 less phoenix when you get to the other side of the map) and normally you tend to play extremely greedy on 1 gateway for a very long time.
Other times you see someone switching off phoenixes is simply because he was too much behind in the phoenix count, this slightly increases his chances of winning but they still remain pretty low.
EDIT: I suppose I forgot to mention DTs, but that's not a really solid choice until you get on 3 bases.
|
On April 23 2015 21:17 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 12:27 PiPiGranDe wrote:
PvP Question:
Say both open SG and both players start making Phoenix.. both players expand....
Let's say both players is to make mass phoenix + harass...
Question: Is it better to add a second SG for more phoenix production or is it better to add a quicker fleet beacon for range??
If you have range upgrade... how would you go about it to engage their phoenix?
I haven't had much experience in phoenix wars but I want to explore this option... Get a fleet beacon first and then a 2nd Stargate immediately after. You can afford this because once you expand your gas income becomes 2x higher. You should get those buildings as soon as possible after your nexus is finished, but without stopping chronoboost on phoenixes. The reason why I say you should get range first is because even if you have 2-3 less phoenixes you will still win engagements convincingly as long as you kite properly. So what you should do is to go for a timing which hits right after range finishes. If he went for a late range, you should be able to win immediately. Poke forward and if he pulls back with the phoenixes, you just ignore overcharge and lift a few probes in his mineral line. Be ready to spam ESC if he tries to engage you, otherwise when you move away your phoenixes, some will be stuck in the air lifting a probe. Otherwise , if he tries to engage you, you pull back and kite. You need good reflexes , because if you pull back too slowly and he gets in range with his phoenixes you probably lose everything. Camping on stargates if phoenixes are out of position is also really good, if you're lucky you can catch some of them for free as they pop out. Of course if you do that and he went fleet beacon too it might end up really badly, so you should try to scout that before. That's why having a sentry in Phoenix v Phoenix is really useful, it's the cheapest way to scout without committing your real units. Hallucinated phoenixes can also be useful in fights to tank the first few shots and get you an edge. If you get a 2nd stargate first, and you survive from the "range timing" that your opponent should do without taking any damage, then you should be ahead by 2 phoenixes in a mirror situation, from a purely "production capability" standpoint. However the truth is that gas doesn't come out of nowhere. Having a later 2nd stargate allows you to also bank enough gas to get +1 air (right before your 2nd stargate production kicks in) while your opponent can't because 2 stargate production spends all your 4 gas income. I wouldn't get archons as the first follow up unless either me or my opponent want to go for a timing. In a passive game, keep as hts the first you warp in (up to 8 i guess, which can feedback up to 32 phoenixes), and morph in archons the following ones. Also worth to note that now that tempests are a lot weaker, a carrier switch instead of a templar switch might be a thing. Carriers wreck phoenixes.
Thanks for the answer.
When the Nexus is up on the natural... do you immediately get double gases? or you have some probes mining mineral first?
I find most people add second SG first and then fleet beacon... If I open fleet beacon first... there is a window that they have to win phoenix war cus they will have more phoenixes...
How does +1 attack affect phoenix war? Also, is it worth it to get +2 attack or +1 armor as the 2nd upgrade? Is it worth it to go +3 attack or +2 armor?
Thanks!
|
If someone brings me good reasons as to why 2nd stargate first is better than fleet beacon first I'm ready to change my mind, but I've had decent success with fleet beacon first so far, and it's seems good to me in theory as well.
You need to mine gas immediately, but sometimes this might result in you being mineral starved and not being able to maintain probe/pylon production. So it's not 100% mandatory to start both assimilator 30 seconds before the nexus finishes and go 3+3 on them immediately, you can take it a bit more easy, for example start with 2+2 and fully saturate them 1 minute later. It also depends on how many probes you have when it finishes, if you can make a decent probe transfer from the main, then you can saturate the gases more quickly.
If you open Fleet beacon first against double stargate, it still depends on how big is the time lapse between the FB and the stargate. For me, when I start FB, it's about 30 seconds, I start the 2nd stargate before the FB even finishes. Let's see how this is possible.
4 gas income is about 450 gas/minute.
Your stargate, without chronoboosts, takes 170 gas/minute. So once you start mining from natural gases (assuming you go 3+3 on it immediately, there's not a big difference if you stay on 2+2 for a bit anyway), you will bank around 280 gas per minute. This means that while on a single, non chronoboosted stargate production, you can do this:
time= 0:00 - You start mining from your natural gases.
0:42 - Fleet beacon
1:14 - 2nd stargate
1:47 - Range (~5 seconds after fleet beacon finishes)
2:18 - You can start double stargate phoenix production. Now you spend 340 gas/minute (no chronoboosts) on phoenixes, so you bank only 110/minute.
3:40 - +1 air armor
Whereas if you go straight into double stargate it would be something like this:
0:00 - You start mining from your natural gases.
0:33 - Second stargate
1:14 - Fleet beacon
1:35 - You can start both stargate phoenix production.
2:57 - Range (you can't afford it for ~43 seconds)
4:18 - +1 air armor
So with the 2nd stargate first, you can afford range only 1:10 later, and +1 air armor 0:38 later.
What is the phoenix advantage? 2nd stargate is 41 seconds earlier, which is only 1.2 more phoenixes. Obviously you can increase that by chronoboosting the stargates (as long as you have enough minerals while also building probes, pylons, etc.), but then you will bank even less resources: you have 2,67 chronoboosts per minute, which means you save 26.7 seconds on phoenix production ~ 4.5 phoenixes per minute...you barely have enough gas to afford that , let alone getting range and other upgrades. That could get you almost 2 phoenixes ahead.
So to answer your question - because of rush distances, having 1-2 phoenixes more is not enough to attack you and kill you. Especially considering that you have an earlier upgrade kicking in at some point.
Banking chronoboosts might seem like a bad choice, but you don't have enough minerals to chronoboost probes all the time either, and you can invest them to continuously chronoboost range.
Of course this might look like massive theorycrafting, but in practice, it works from the exact same way. I can easily go Fleet beacon - 2nd stargate - range - +1 air without stopping phoenix production.
Now, with 1:10 later range, there's a pretty decent timing window where you can die. Again, the offensive range player can just ignore overcharge, its damage is insignificant compared to phoenixes' one vs light units. Imagine if you chronoboost your phoenixes and delay your range even more.
About upgrades. It's really complicated, there are tons of possible (not obvious) interactions where a set of upgrades allows you to tank 1 more phoenix shot against another.
The most notable one, though, is that +1 armor vs +0 armor allows you to tank 1 more shot, while +1 weapons vs +0 weapons doesn't. So people tend to go +1 armor first. But if i knew I was behind in upgrades I would go for weapons.
Keep in mind that later on, shield upgrades affect archons and in general all protoss units and buildings. Weapon upgrades are cheaper and also better than armor outside of phoenix vs phoenix fights.
|
As a protoss, what are your favorite and least favorite maps of the current map pool?
|
On April 24 2015 05:13 Xenodore wrote:
As a protoss, what are your favorite and least favorite maps of the current map pool?
Vetos and maps I dislike : Iron Fortress (vetoed : unplayable vs drops, hard to wall with buildings -two pylons needed for a clean wall-, very tricky third), Cactus Valley (vetoed : tricky vs drops, blur due to the sand effects especially vs Zerg, 4 players map), Inferno Pools (vetoed for sheer retardedness) and Expedition Lost (I really HATE that shitty backdoor, who the hell ever thought a backdoor could be a good idea ?).
Maps I play and enjoy : Vaani Research Station (very comfortable map for P macro play especially since SHs aren't a thing anymore), Coda (I love that map, great layout, standard size, a lot of attack paths and opportunities) and Echo (great map, strangely enough my winrate here is abysmal, probably since I played so many Protosses here and have terrible vP).
|
As mentioned in my previous post I have horrible PvP (less than 30% winrate if I recall correctly). I usually get to the midgame without suffering too much damage but I seem to always get outgreeded by my opponents or to have too bad maxed armies control. I actually used to win a lot in PvP because people would really often try to transition out of colossi into tempests and I had gotten quite good at catching them during the transition, but now that virtually everybody aims for colossi + archons I'm lost.
I'd really appreciate if you could give me some advice on the following points :
1) assuming you don't open phoenix or blink, is it always worth it to get three sentries for infinite scouting and to replace them if needed ?
2) robo expand with two sentries against phoenix expand : how should I try to minimize the damage I take ? I usually warp up to 8 stalkers while teching to blink and adding robo bay as soon as gas affords, but I always take a ton of damage (5+ probes and the sentries most of the time since they're so vulnerable to phoenix, meaning no map presence at all). Is it avoidable ? Should you add cannons in mineral lines to make your life easier ?
3) any tips on how to break your opponent in colossi wars ? I always seem to come out behind after maxed out fights, and I know I have quite bad control. So how do you want to position your units ? On which part of the opponent's army should the time warp(s) go ? Are warp prisms tricks (dropping immortals or zealots on colossi) really effective ?
4) is the "optimal" army composition the same as in WoL now (8-9 colossi, as many immortals and archons as possible and chargelots) ?
5) should you always cut probes at 45ish to afford additional gates/third ?
6) what would be a good way to look at taking a third in PvP ? I always take it reactively (once I see my opponent has taken it or when I know I'm ahead enough to get away with it) but when should you try to sneak a third ?
7) In a colossi war, should you be able to punish a greedy third (greedy = probing up to 50+ and not adding gates 4-6 before 3rd) with a push ?
I'm sorry some of my questions may be quite vague or badly phrased ; I hope you will be able to help me nevertheless, I'm really bad at that match-up but willing to improve.
|
On April 24 2015 06:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
4) is the "optimal" army composition the same as in WoL now (8-9 colossi, as many immortals and archons as possible and chargelots) ?
Due to the tempest nerf, I would generally agree with this. However, voids are more viable than WoL because of the prismatic allignment. I don't mean to say they can replace the tempest as a counter, but maybe if one opened stargate, it could be a kind of edge since they do extra dmg to armored units. I'll leave the other questions to others as my PvP is a bit... unorthodox.
|
On April 24 2015 06:28 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 05:13 Xenodore wrote:
As a protoss, what are your favorite and least favorite maps of the current map pool? Vetos and maps I dislike : ... Expedition Lost (I really HATE that shitty backdoor, who the hell ever thought a backdoor could be a good idea ?). ...probably since I played so many Protosses here and have terrible vP).
Oh, I'm probably the kind of toss that would annoy you... I play the the map & will be agressive if I see something to exploit, so I've tried to cut through those rocks many a time. I've noted that there seems to be less surface area than normal rocks... is this my imagination or does it actually take longer to kill with melee?
|
On April 23 2015 22:11 Teoita wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2015 12:46 Xenodore wrote:On April 23 2015 12:27 PiPiGranDe wrote:
PvP Question:
Say both open SG and both players start making Phoenix.. both players expand....
Let's say both players is to make mass phoenix + harass...
Question: Is it better to add a second SG for more phoenix production or is it better to add a quicker fleet beacon for range??
If you have range upgrade... how would you go about it to engage their phoenix?
I haven't had much experience in phoenix wars but I want to explore this option... I'm 90% sure this old day[9] analysis of pheonix vs pheonix is still accurate here. http://day9.tv/d/Day9/day9-daily-527/according to his show, second SG b4 FB for range with archon follow up for splash. tbh that daily is pretty outdated. I think (im not sure, im god awful at phoenix mirrors so i never bother with them) that overcharge alone now should let you consistently get range before the second stargate. Honestly at the pro level games dont even end up in phoenix wars, and most players seem to be able to get like 4-5 phoenixes and then go ground in stargate mirrors. I'm not sure wether that can be done consistently against all the wierd stuff you might face on ladder though.
I concede that the photon overcharge wasn't a thing at the time, definately allowing for an increased potential to transition than back then. However, in Zest's PvPs in the GSL two seasons ago, he was still winning by staying on pheonix as his opponent tried to go into blink stalkers. So I think Aligard's entry makes the most sense in leiu of the changes because it favors a technical approach over a numbers race, which the overcharge *should* hinder.
|
On April 24 2015 08:52 Xenodore wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2015 06:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
4) is the "optimal" army composition the same as in WoL now (8-9 colossi, as many immortals and archons as possible and chargelots) ?
Due to the tempest nerf, I would generally agree with this. However, voids are more viable than WoL because of the prismatic allignment. I don't mean to say they can replace the tempest as a counter, but maybe if one opened stargate, it could be a kind of edge since they do extra dmg to armored units. I'll leave the other questions to others as my PvP is a bit... unorthodox.
Void rays are terrible against archons though. If there is a unit that can replace the tempest, it's the carrier, since they beat every unit except for tempests. However carriers, unlike tempests, are really effective only in high numbers, and they are very slow to produce.
|
On April 24 2015 00:20 KingAlphard wrote:
If someone brings me good reasons as to why 2nd stargate first is better than fleet beacon first I'm ready to change my mind, but I've had decent success with fleet beacon first so far, and it's seems good to me in theory as well.
You need to mine gas immediately, but sometimes this might result in you being mineral starved and not being able to maintain probe/pylon production. So it's not 100% mandatory to start both assimilator 30 seconds before the nexus finishes and go 3+3 on them immediately, you can take it a bit more easy, for example start with 2+2 and fully saturate them 1 minute later. It also depends on how many probes you have when it finishes, if you can make a decent probe transfer from the main, then you can saturate the gases more quickly.
If you open Fleet beacon first against double stargate, it still depends on how big is the time lapse between the FB and the stargate. For me, when I start FB, it's about 30 seconds, I start the 2nd stargate before the FB even finishes. Let's see how this is possible.
4 gas income is about 450 gas/minute.
Your stargate, without chronoboosts, takes 170 gas/minute. So once you start mining from natural gases (assuming you go 3+3 on it immediately, there's not a big difference if you stay on 2+2 for a bit anyway), you will bank around 280 gas per minute. This means that while on a single, non chronoboosted stargate production, you can do this:
time= 0:00 - You start mining from your natural gases.
0:42 - Fleet beacon
1:14 - 2nd stargate
1:47 - Range (~5 seconds after fleet beacon finishes)
2:18 - You can start double stargate phoenix production. Now you spend 340 gas/minute (no chronoboosts) on phoenixes, so you bank only 110/minute.
3:40 - +1 air armor
Whereas if you go straight into double stargate it would be something like this:
0:00 - You start mining from your natural gases.
0:33 - Second stargate
1:14 - Fleet beacon
1:35 - You can start both stargate phoenix production.
2:57 - Range (you can't afford it for ~43 seconds)
4:18 - +1 air armor
So with the 2nd stargate first, you can afford range only 1:10 later, and +1 air armor 0:38 later.
What is the phoenix advantage? 2nd stargate is 41 seconds earlier, which is only 1.2 more phoenixes. Obviously you can increase that by chronoboosting the stargates (as long as you have enough minerals while also building probes, pylons, etc.), but then you will bank even less resources: you have 2,67 chronoboosts per minute, which means you save 26.7 seconds on phoenix production ~ 4.5 phoenixes per minute...you barely have enough gas to afford that , let alone getting range and other upgrades. That could get you almost 2 phoenixes ahead.
So to answer your question - because of rush distances, having 1-2 phoenixes more is not enough to attack you and kill you. Especially considering that you have an earlier upgrade kicking in at some point.
Banking chronoboosts might seem like a bad choice, but you don't have enough minerals to chronoboost probes all the time either, and you can invest them to continuously chronoboost range.
Of course this might look like massive theorycrafting, but in practice, it works from the exact same way. I can easily go Fleet beacon - 2nd stargate - range - +1 air without stopping phoenix production.
Now, with 1:10 later range, there's a pretty decent timing window where you can die. Again, the offensive range player can just ignore overcharge, its damage is insignificant compared to phoenixes' one vs light units. Imagine if you chronoboost your phoenixes and delay your range even more.
About upgrades. It's really complicated, there are tons of possible (not obvious) interactions where a set of upgrades allows you to tank 1 more phoenix shot against another.
The most notable one, though, is that +1 armor vs +0 armor allows you to tank 1 more shot, while +1 weapons vs +0 weapons doesn't. So people tend to go +1 armor first. But if i knew I was behind in upgrades I would go for weapons.
Keep in mind that later on, shield upgrades affect archons and in general all protoss units and buildings. Weapon upgrades are cheaper and also better than armor outside of phoenix vs phoenix fights.
Thanks buddy for taking your time to write this off. Can you safely open SG + phoenix vs an opponent that is going 3 gate rush stalkers (it looks like a normal build but then it its you and by the time they push, they have 8-9 stalkers vs my 3 phoenix + 2 stalker (2 gateway) + core). I've died to this build a couple of times...
I thought of making sentries but I can only hold them on the ramp for so long before blink kicks in.
Is this a BO lost or is there a way to incorporate SG/phoenix into my standard PvP build?
|
So you mean 3 stalker rush into 3 warpgate pressure? It's basically a build order loss if not scouted.
You should be able to get some information with the probe scout. For sure you will see the 2 gate opening, and you should play safer by default against that, getting more gateway units early on. Also your opponent should have a decent amount of banked chronoboost if he wants to do a warpgate pressure. If you suspect it's coming, don't go for phoenixes. You can go for an oracle, although most people keep their msc in their base, so it's not extremely good. If you scout it before placing down the stargate, honestly I feel like you should go for a twilight instead.
I don't understand how you can hope to defend that with blink, you already spent much less money than him on army, you need to get as many units out as quickly as possible.
The best answer with a late scout is to cut phoenixes and rush to 3 warpgates, while getting also a few void rays out since you can't spend all your money on 1 gateway. In this situation you can't hold the ramp for too long anyway, having a sentry since the early game with 100+ energy banked up can help, but I wouldn't warp in more of them.
Remember to use phoenixes in the engagement to lift up stalkers, it can help a lot.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
