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On April 25 2015 01:46 KingAlphard wrote:
So you mean 3 stalker rush into 3 warpgate pressure? It's basically a build order loss if not scouted.
You should be able to get some information with the probe scout. For sure you will see the 2 gate opening, and you should play safer by default against that, getting more gateway units early on. Also your opponent should have a decent amount of banked chronoboost if he wants to do a warpgate pressure. If you suspect it's coming, don't go for phoenixes. You can go for an oracle, although most people keep their msc in their base, so it's not extremely good. If you scout it before placing down the stargate, honestly I feel like you should go for a twilight instead.
I don't understand how you can hope to defend that with blink, you already spent much less money than him on army, you need to get as many units out as quickly as possible.
The best answer with a late scout is to cut phoenixes and rush to 3 warpgates, while getting also a few void rays out since you can't spend all your money on 1 gateway. In this situation you can't hold the ramp for too long anyway, having a sentry since the early game with 100+ energy banked up can help, but I wouldn't warp in more of them.
Remember to use phoenixes in the engagement to lift up stalkers, it can help a lot.
Just to add to this:
It's pretty easy to hold on against a 3 gate if you know its coming. The problem is there are a lot of fake 3 gate builds. Ones that start by adding 2 gates but then only making 1 stalker or even getting a sentry then expanding. If you know 100% its going to be 3 gate you can just get a sentry and hold the ramp pretty easily. However, we need to hold the 3 gate while also dealing with other possible openings.
Like KingAlphard said if you open stargate you need to make an oracle instead of a phoenix. Your build should look something like this: stalker -> msc -> stargate -> oracle -> stalker -> add 2 gates -> warp in 3 stalkers. Order might be slightly off. It's 2 or 3 chronos on warp gate to allow you to warp in right as the gates finish. Make sure your oracle forces the photon overcharge. If he leaves 2 stalkers at home then he's missing 2 stalkers during the fight and you should be able to defend without pulling probes. If he ignores the oracle and lets his probes die then his army at the front will be bigger than yours. Try to bait him close without taking stalker damage and then pull probes and try and get a surround. Pull your probes back once you get an advantage make sure your oracle is doing damage in the meantime. The reason you can pull probes is because your oracle is also killing probes. A big part of holding this all in is waiting as long as you possibly can before activating the overcharge.
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On April 25 2015 02:10 -HuShang- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2015 01:46 KingAlphard wrote:
So you mean 3 stalker rush into 3 warpgate pressure? It's basically a build order loss if not scouted.
You should be able to get some information with the probe scout. For sure you will see the 2 gate opening, and you should play safer by default against that, getting more gateway units early on. Also your opponent should have a decent amount of banked chronoboost if he wants to do a warpgate pressure. If you suspect it's coming, don't go for phoenixes. You can go for an oracle, although most people keep their msc in their base, so it's not extremely good. If you scout it before placing down the stargate, honestly I feel like you should go for a twilight instead.
I don't understand how you can hope to defend that with blink, you already spent much less money than him on army, you need to get as many units out as quickly as possible.
The best answer with a late scout is to cut phoenixes and rush to 3 warpgates, while getting also a few void rays out since you can't spend all your money on 1 gateway. In this situation you can't hold the ramp for too long anyway, having a sentry since the early game with 100+ energy banked up can help, but I wouldn't warp in more of them.
Remember to use phoenixes in the engagement to lift up stalkers, it can help a lot. Just to add to this: It's pretty easy to hold on against a 3 gate if you know its coming. The problem is there are a lot of fake 3 gate builds. Ones that start by adding 2 gates but then only making 1 stalker or even getting a sentry then expanding. If you know 100% its going to be 3 gate you can just get a sentry and hold the ramp pretty easily. However, we need to hold the 3 gate while also dealing with other possible openings. Like KingAlphard said if you open stargate you need to make an oracle instead of a phoenix. Your build should look something like this: stalker -> msc -> stargate -> oracle -> stalker -> add 2 gates -> warp in 3 stalkers. Order might be slightly off. It's 2 or 3 chronos on warp gate to allow you to warp in right as the gates finish. Make sure your oracle forces the photon overcharge. If he leaves 2 stalkers at home then he's missing 2 stalkers during the fight and you should be able to defend without pulling probes. If he ignores the oracle and lets his probes die then his army at the front will be bigger than yours. Try to bait him close without taking stalker damage and then pull probes and try and get a surround. Pull your probes back once you get an advantage make sure your oracle is doing damage in the meantime. The reason you can pull probes is because your oracle is also killing probes. A big part of holding this all in is waiting as long as you possibly can before activating the overcharge.
Thanks for the info again. To clarify: not my blink... the opponents blink. Usually this build is done with 3 gate rush stalker + blink to follow up... afaik
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On April 25 2015 08:28 PiPiGranDe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2015 02:10 -HuShang- wrote:On April 25 2015 01:46 KingAlphard wrote:
So you mean 3 stalker rush into 3 warpgate pressure? It's basically a build order loss if not scouted.
You should be able to get some information with the probe scout. For sure you will see the 2 gate opening, and you should play safer by default against that, getting more gateway units early on. Also your opponent should have a decent amount of banked chronoboost if he wants to do a warpgate pressure. If you suspect it's coming, don't go for phoenixes. You can go for an oracle, although most people keep their msc in their base, so it's not extremely good. If you scout it before placing down the stargate, honestly I feel like you should go for a twilight instead.
I don't understand how you can hope to defend that with blink, you already spent much less money than him on army, you need to get as many units out as quickly as possible.
The best answer with a late scout is to cut phoenixes and rush to 3 warpgates, while getting also a few void rays out since you can't spend all your money on 1 gateway. In this situation you can't hold the ramp for too long anyway, having a sentry since the early game with 100+ energy banked up can help, but I wouldn't warp in more of them.
Remember to use phoenixes in the engagement to lift up stalkers, it can help a lot. Just to add to this: It's pretty easy to hold on against a 3 gate if you know its coming. The problem is there are a lot of fake 3 gate builds. Ones that start by adding 2 gates but then only making 1 stalker or even getting a sentry then expanding. If you know 100% its going to be 3 gate you can just get a sentry and hold the ramp pretty easily. However, we need to hold the 3 gate while also dealing with other possible openings. Like KingAlphard said if you open stargate you need to make an oracle instead of a phoenix. Your build should look something like this: stalker -> msc -> stargate -> oracle -> stalker -> add 2 gates -> warp in 3 stalkers. Order might be slightly off. It's 2 or 3 chronos on warp gate to allow you to warp in right as the gates finish. Make sure your oracle forces the photon overcharge. If he leaves 2 stalkers at home then he's missing 2 stalkers during the fight and you should be able to defend without pulling probes. If he ignores the oracle and lets his probes die then his army at the front will be bigger than yours. Try to bait him close without taking stalker damage and then pull probes and try and get a surround. Pull your probes back once you get an advantage make sure your oracle is doing damage in the meantime. The reason you can pull probes is because your oracle is also killing probes. A big part of holding this all in is waiting as long as you possibly can before activating the overcharge. Thanks for the info again. To clarify: not my blink... the opponents blink. Usually this build is done with 3 gate rush stalker + blink to follow up... afaik
Don't wanna theorycraft here because this build is already not that popular (it sucks vs blink openings) and most of the times I see people going for robo behind it and not blink. It would be more helpful if you posted a replay.
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How to counter brood lords in the late game vs zerg? Is it still tempest?
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Of course. Nothing has changed in that regard, it's just harder to get enough tempests out quickly against a broodlord timing.
You can do it with void rays as well at first (for example if you're playing colossus-void ray), but they become more and more obsolete as the zerg player starts adding vipers. infestors, and spore forests.
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what maps would you say are better for aggressive blink styles?
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any map where you can blink into the main and nat from the same point is incredibly strong and almost broken.
outside of that maps where there is good blink surface area.
coda is not that great but not impossible
echo is okayish
expedition lost not that great either
vaani is quite good
cactus valley pretty bad even
inferno pools okayish
iron fortress is on the edge as you can blink into the main but theres not a lot of room
it's quite visible how maps changed in this post blink era =/
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On April 24 2015 06:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
3) any tips on how to break your opponent in colossi wars ?
It seems to me that the toss that has more colossi always wins the first fight as long as he can put his colossi in one line instead of packing them.
On April 24 2015 06:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
I always seem to come out behind after maxed out fights, and I know I have quite bad control. So how do you want to position your units ?
Toss is the only race that doesn't automaticaly use concave for fights. But in Colo vs Colo fights, colossi are the key of the fight. So you need to spread out your army the most you can because your colossi will be more effective contrary to your opponents' colo. And in the end of the fight, it's often the one that has more colo alive after most units are gone that wins the final fight, and the game.
On April 24 2015 06:52 [PkF] Wire wrote:
On which part of the opponent's army should the time warp(s) go ?
For the warp, in my humble opinion, if you're still fighting I assume you would like to keep your colossi alive as long as you can. And you also want to delay the dps of the ennemy's colo the longest you can. So because of that, you would always try to get the focus of ennemy colo on everything appart from your colossi and the zealots seems to do the job just fine when you send them on ennemy colossi. (when you try to circle a colo, it will not touch all the zealots in one time. So that's perfect for you)
So the trick with the warp prism zealot / immo should be a good one. You can also try to warp in behind his back so his colossi will focus different units on many sides. It will give you even more time to let your colossi dps.
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TvP problems as most of the protoss lately.
- Masters EU -
In the following situation , I go 1 gate expo into 5min robo then double gate, and twilight , when the robo is done , robo bay.And against factoryt play with double drop with mines, I defend perfectly and the terran takes a greedy expo.
What are my options?
- GO for 2 base colossi all in to punish never works, and if I try to ttake a 3º they are able to deny it for really long time, till they haave a massive army and win.
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On April 29 2015 23:59 DreamOen wrote:
TvP problems as most of the protoss lately.
- Masters EU -
In the following situation , I go 1 gate expo into 5min robo then double gate, and twilight , when the robo is done , robo bay.And against factoryt play with double drop with mines, I defend perfectly and the terran takes a greedy expo.
What are my options?
- GO for 2 base colossi all in to punish never works, and if I try to ttake a 3º they are able to deny it for really long time, till they haave a massive army and win.
Need replays
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On April 29 2015 23:59 DreamOen wrote:
TvP problems as most of the protoss lately.
- Masters EU -
In the following situation , I go 1 gate expo into 5min robo then double gate, and twilight , when the robo is done , robo bay.And against factoryt play with double drop with mines, I defend perfectly and the terran takes a greedy expo.
What are my options?
- GO for 2 base colossi all in to punish never works, and if I try to ttake a 3º they are able to deny it for really long time, till they haave a massive army and win.
u can take a greedy third yourself against mine drops. their stim is delayed so as long as you hit all your timings correctly for units/upgrades there is no way you wont get away with it
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Some background: I'm a pretty new SC2 player (around 200 games or so on ladder) and, now that I've had a chance to experiment with Terran and Zerg, I was going to give Protoss a try. In order to get a hang of the very basics (namely the macro mechanic of chronoboost and warp-ins) i was going to play a couple of games on ladder in which I just spam stalkers/warpgates (pretty much just A-moving on minimap) while expanding/saturating bases - the central goal is to keep my money low while getting to steady-state 3 base income (this same strat with zerg and terran tier 1 units easily got me to high silver =P but, more importantly, helped me get familiar with general macro).
My question: aside from a different macro mechanic, another aspect of Protoss which is unique and puzzling to me is the Mothership Core. What role does it play in macro-oriented builds? Is it a necessary unit in order to survive early stages if I plan to do a simple 1 gate expand? My impression that is that it can help "cheese-proof" a build (photon overcharge) but this is an admittedly superficial interpretation.
P.S. At this stage, I wasn't going to bother doing things differently by matchup (in my experience with Zerg, it didn't really matter at my level - i literally made it to mid silver by spamming slow-lings; Terran is a bit different in that 12/12 Reaper FE into 3-rax has a role against all races).
P.P.S. I know my approach is simplistic at the moment, but it's really just to get familiar with playing a new race.
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Mothership core can be used in attack or defensive. time warp can be used in both attack or defends (slow the units of you enemy). Photon overcharge defends is good but you need to have units so it will be more affective. recall is good for pressure. Every protos player that knows what he is doing makes mother ship core. really important in all match up for the early game. but it not cheese proof you can still loose to cheese. If you are going for mass low tech units and you are not going to micro then just make zealots and few stalkers because stalkers are just good if you micro them with blink.
In my opinion is that you can´t do the same strat as you did for zerg and terrans. Would be better to just go for 2 gate robo expand in all matchups then go for colussus with upgrades and do a 2 base timings. You will need to have sentries
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On May 01 2015 03:22 Raguel wrote:
Mothership core can be used in attack or defensive. time warp can be used in both attack or defends (slow the units of you enemy). Photon overcharge defends is good but you need to have units so it will be more affective. recall is good for pressure. Every protos player that knows what he is doing makes mother ship core. really important in all match up for the early game. but it not cheese proof you can still loose to cheese. If you are going for mass low tech units and you are not going to micro then just make zealots and few stalkers because stalkers are just good if you micro them with blink.
In my opinion is that you can´t do the same strat as you did for zerg and terrans. Would be better to just go for 2 gate robo expand in all matchups then go for colussus with upgrades and do a 2 base timings. You will need to have sentries
Thanks, that helps re: moco.
Regarding 2-gate robo, is this a decent guide to follow?: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/408723-pvp-2-gate-robo-expand-in-hots
I couldn't find a 2-gate robo on imbabuilds (which, as I understand, is usually the best repository of builds aside from pro games themselves) and this was the most recent version I found - just wanted to make sure I wasn't looking at something that just doesn't make sense anymore given patches and/or meta.
Alternatively, if you can point me to a pro replay, I can get the build from there
P.S. This might be a really dumb question: in the FFE build (vs. Zerg) is the idea to completely seal off the natural (i.e., using gate/forge/core) or is the idea to set up the buildings such that 1 zealot creates a complete seal? The latter makes more sense to me... Secondly, if it is indeed the latter (i.e., 1 zealot worth of open space in the wall), what units are unable to pass through (e.g., immortals/archons/colossi/etc.)? i ask because this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUuydFKMhoQ) shows the player destroying his own forge (and then immediately rebuilding it) when he wants his first batch of stalkers to leave his base...which just seems ridiculous given the lost minerals and research time
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I have a question regarding PvT builds. I usually open robo, but with the very little amount of info I have before the terran's first pokes or my first obs arriving, I have trouble deciding when to throw down with 2 additional gates. I sometimes scout with my mamacore depending on the map, but it's not infallible.
So, in which situation should I build the two gates after the robo as opposed to after the colo bay/forge? I also build a stargate in sync with the colo bay because I play pheonix/colo but am too bad at multitasking to use an oracle effectively ahah.
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On May 01 2015 09:07 VengefulTree wrote:
I have a question regarding PvT builds. I usually open robo, but with the very little amount of info I have before the terran's first pokes or my first obs arriving, I have trouble deciding when to throw down with 2 additional gates. I sometimes scout with my mamacore depending on the map, but it's not infallible.
So, in which situation should I build the two gates after the robo as opposed to after the colo bay/forge? I also build a stargate in sync with the colo bay because I play pheonix/colo but am too bad at multitasking to use an oracle effectively ahah.
scout the terran with probe. Send in their base as you start the msc.
if more than 100 gas -> fact after reaper
if exactly 100 -> bio after reaper
if cc is already done -> cc first
if ramp is blocked and marine is there or marines kill your probe and there was no cc on the low ground its most likely a factory first build. It could also be a 1 rax expand with the cc in the main but that isnt popular at all. Also, additional scouting will tell you really quickly which one it is. Just make sure your units are back by 6:10 or so for the mine drop and be careful of hellion builds. Although, if its a hellion build you should see the factory or 3 supply depos at the front blocking because they need the reactor from the rax. Good luck ;p! Show no mercy
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I've managed to get to master league on the back of having decent macro/build orders, but my engagements are awful. I don't actually know how to fight - where to fight, when, when not to, good positions, bad positions. Because of this I tend to throw a lot of my games from huge leads because my fights go so poorly. Can anyone give me a basic summary of how I should be fighting, i.e. what kind of positions I want to take, to fight in, or not fight in etc.
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On May 01 2015 04:26 dchaudh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 03:22 Raguel wrote:
Mothership core can be used in attack or defensive. time warp can be used in both attack or defends (slow the units of you enemy). Photon overcharge defends is good but you need to have units so it will be more affective. recall is good for pressure. Every protos player that knows what he is doing makes mother ship core. really important in all match up for the early game. but it not cheese proof you can still loose to cheese. If you are going for mass low tech units and you are not going to micro then just make zealots and few stalkers because stalkers are just good if you micro them with blink.
In my opinion is that you can´t do the same strat as you did for zerg and terrans. Would be better to just go for 2 gate robo expand in all matchups then go for colussus with upgrades and do a 2 base timings. You will need to have sentries Thanks, that helps re: moco. Regarding 2-gate robo, is this a decent guide to follow?: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/sc2-strategy/408723-pvp-2-gate-robo-expand-in-hotsI couldn't find a 2-gate robo on imbabuilds (which, as I understand, is usually the best repository of builds aside from pro games themselves) and this was the most recent version I found - just wanted to make sure I wasn't looking at something that just doesn't make sense anymore given patches and/or meta. Alternatively, if you can point me to a pro replay, I can get the build from there P.S. This might be a really dumb question: in the FFE build (vs. Zerg) is the idea to completely seal off the natural (i.e., using gate/forge/core) or is the idea to set up the buildings such that 1 zealot creates a complete seal? The latter makes more sense to me... Secondly, if it is indeed the latter (i.e., 1 zealot worth of open space in the wall), what units are unable to pass through (e.g., immortals/archons/colossi/etc.)? i ask because this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUuydFKMhoQ) shows the player destroying his own forge (and then immediately rebuilding it) when he wants his first batch of stalkers to leave his base...which just seems ridiculous given the lost minerals and research time
You are right. Having 1 unit space for the zealot is ideal. You don't want a complete seal.
Immortals, archons and colossus can pass through the 1 unit space. What they can't pass is a diagonal unit (when buildings leave a small space by touching each other by a diagonal, not adjacently), which isn't quite a full 1 unit space. It kind of looks like a full unit space, which is why it might be deceiving
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Archons and Colossi can't pass through 1 hex space. The only protoss unit that can pass through the diagonal is the probe.
Colossi can almost always bypass that thanks to cliffs. So usually it's the archons that give trouble, especially if you recall.
I've managed to get to master league on the back of having decent macro/build orders, but my engagements are awful. I don't actually know how to fight - where to fight, when, when not to, good positions, bad positions. Because of this I tend to throw a lot of my games from huge leads because my fights go so poorly. Can anyone give me a basic summary of how I should be fighting, i.e. what kind of positions I want to take, to fight in, or not fight in etc.
Please be more specific. In general, watch pro games and practice a lot and you will improve on that.
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On May 02 2015 04:06 KingAlphard wrote:Archons and Colossi can't pass through 1 hex space. The only protoss unit that can pass through the diagonal is the probe. Colossi can almost always bypass that thanks to cliffs. So usually it's the archons that give trouble, especially if you recall. Show nested quote +
I've managed to get to master league on the back of having decent macro/build orders, but my engagements are awful. I don't actually know how to fight - where to fight, when, when not to, good positions, bad positions. Because of this I tend to throw a lot of my games from huge leads because my fights go so poorly. Can anyone give me a basic summary of how I should be fighting, i.e. what kind of positions I want to take, to fight in, or not fight in etc.
Please be more specific. In general, watch pro games and practice a lot and you will improve on that.
I lose a lot of fights I feel I "should" win, for example: http://ggtracker.com/matches/5957794 I have a higher army supply, better upgrades, but my micro is awful and I lose terribly.
I don't know how to get better at controlling my units, or knowing when/where to fight. It's so depressing to lose games over and over despite my opponent's donating medivacs, or losing bases/workers to harassment, but the big main fight happens and I get crushed because I'm so shit at micro.
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EPT
