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In relation to PvZ, I think that I saw MyuNgSik do this build in Proleague where he went 1 gate FE into Stargate and then 6/7 gate allin. It looked super effective, and I've been doing it with pretty good results thus far.
Myungsik vs Rogue
My take on it is to go Phoenix first then Oracle. The Phoenix kills any chance of the allin being scouted and can help supply block the Zerg at the worst times when they spread Overlords over the map without a care in the world. Maphacklords are disgusting, abusive and a part of me is joyous every time one explodes into giblets. The Oracle can do economic damage, kill off Creep tumors and ensure you get proxy pylons up because it owns lings. It also gives the allin a bit more street cred.
Early Stargates seem better able to deal with Zerg early game shenanigans (you could get Void Rays if being cheesed, for example), or you could expand off a smaller pressure (but who really needs a third in PvZ anyway?)
The other great thing about the build is that exploits most Zerg reactions to Stargate play (make a few spores, keep droning up) with a quick Gateway allin. So abusive, so tasty!
On February 03 2015 07:40 DinoMight wrote: Hi all, question about my stupid PvT build:
I've been doing this with a fair amount of success but I'm pretty sure it's stupid.
-21 nexus off 1 gas into standard Colossus. Add templar after 2 or 3 Colos -Get a 3rd base at the standard time or maybe just a little late -Skip upgrades completely and instead get 2 Stargates and chrono out.... Carriers -Turn MSC into full Mothership and all-in off 3 bases
I think the reason it works is that the micro the Terran has to do becomes A LOT more complicated when you add scanning for detection and also focus firing things with his army (otherwise Interceptors make everything go crazy).
Is this REALLY stupid? Or is there actual merit to it?
Also (separate question) are there any good 2 base allins vs. Terran that one can do? The 3rd are so far! But I feel like most 2 base allins are easily held by simply not attacking and committing all to defense.
I have a problem with PvP late game fights. I almost never win the 200/200 fight even when i'm ahead in upgrades.
Composition is always Colossus Immortal Archon vs Colossus Immortal Archon with a warp prism to warp in zealots behind enemy colossus to mess up AI. Also used to drop immortals. I normally stop at 8 colossus, thats what all my opponents does as well. My question is should I favor Immortals over Archons or the other way around?
It seems like archons can help melt the front line of zealots quicker with colossus but because of its terrible range they serve nothing besides a tank once the zealots die. Immortals suck against zealots but if you're able to kill all the non-colossus units then you basically win.
A mix of the two, you want like 8ish immortals and 10ish archons. You also need a front row of zealots to tank the first shots. If you overmake zealots just sac them with runbies etc before the final engagement.
Lately i'm improving my pvt with phoenix colossus style. I have few questions: Shall I tech anyway to ht? When I do this build, Terran do a lots of vikings, while their land force is small. I usually kill land force with colossus fast, then vikings kill my phoenixs and my colossus, and I loose the fight. I saw some VODs of gms adding 2 more or 3 more stargates to produce lots of phoenix to counter vikings, while keeping colossus count low (3-4). Is this right? Shall i tech anyway to ht or just get more stargates and a click to victory?
Colossus/phoenix is (mostly) only strong in the midgame. Phoenixes are expensive, melt once ghosts are out, delay your twilight tech and your army has no synergy with the upgrades; colossi want attack, zealots want armor, phoenixes could get shields but it's kinda shit for them. So IMO, if you go colossus/phoenix you NEED to commit to a midgame attack; there's lots of vods out there of people trying to go lategame with it and it tends to end horribly. It's very similar to old zealot/archon styles actually.
On February 12 2015 01:41 Icekin wrote: Lately i'm improving my pvt with phoenix colossus style. I have few questions: Shall I tech anyway to ht? When I do this build, Terran do a lots of vikings, while their land force is small. I usually kill land force with colossus fast, then vikings kill my phoenixs and my colossus, and I loose the fight. I saw some VODs of gms adding 2 more or 3 more stargates to produce lots of phoenix to counter vikings, while keeping colossus count low (3-4). Is this right? Shall i tech anyway to ht or just get more stargates and a click to victory?
What you describe happens when you don't have enough phoenixes. The number of phoenixes you need depends on your opponent's viking count. Ideally, you want enough phoenixes so that you can directly engage the vikings. Whenever the vikings aren't protected by marines, you can pull back your ground army, and kill the vikings with your phoenixes without losing any colossi. Remember to research range, which is very useful in fights, and air weapons. Also, you should build a lot of defensive cannons. They are very useful as an extra anti air. A single stargate is definitely not enough for this style. Two stargates on 3 bases is a good amount. I don't think 3 stargates are necessary considering that phoenixes' building time is quite short. As usual you focus on colossus production in order to take a third base, since there will be no vikings up to that point. Once you secured your third and have 3-4 colossi, the focus switches on phoenix production and additional upgrades (zealot charge, phoenix range). However, you should still be building colossi off of 1 robo. You should go up to 6-8 colossi and then stop. Obviously it all depends on how aggressive your opponent is being. If you're being attacked, then chronoboost out more colossi and phoenixes. You can do the storm switch before maxing out. If you do it earlier, then you might die to an attack. Not investing into it when you're almost maxed out, on the other hand, is equally silly.
I'm sure this was already talked about, but I'll ask anyways.
My usual build in PvP is gate, nexus, then robo. If the oponnent is going phoenix harass into nexus, I don't know to react properly. I tried many things, but I always ended up losing my precious ladder points.
At this point I'm just accepting it as a build order loss... What's the ideal response in this case?
On February 13 2015 09:39 Tiaraju9 wrote: I'm sure this was already talked about, but I'll ask anyways.
My usual build in PvP is gate, nexus, then robo. If the oponnent is going phoenix harass into nexus, I don't know to react properly. I tried many things, but I always ended up losing my precious ladder points.
At this point I'm just accepting it as a build order loss... What's the ideal response in this case?
Phoenixes are pretty expensive, so with that opening you can't expand until very late. With your build, you should probably have your nexus finished by the time he starts his own nexus. This is potentially a very good economic lead. However, you can't really chronoboost out a ton of probes because he can also all in you with 3 gates, which is really powerful considering that he can easily force an overcharge in the main or snipe your mothership core with the first 3 phoenixes. So be careful with your scouting. If the game goes into 2 base vs 2 base, don't produce anything from the robo other than observers and invest your money into blink. You don't need to build a lot of stalkers, 6 to 8 is enough. After that, you move on to the standard robotics tech. Getting blink is important, because otherwise the phoenix user can always outmaneuver your stalkers (which you still need to build), and get all the scouting he needs. Other than that, yes, it's quite tough. 1 gate nexus robo is a build that's designed to counter blink openings, which are really common nowadays, but it's weaker against anything else (except for DTs).
Yeah it's pretty much a build order loss, the less sentry you have, the better it is for you to eventually come back (I usually get 3 in my robo expand build so I cry everytime tt ), you need to try to make as much stalker as possible (constently produce out of the gateways even if it means cutting probes) so that you can defend both main and natural ASAP. You need to slowly tech blink or else the guy can just win by never stopping phenix production, make one obs to see his movements is a good idea too. Only after You have a good amount of stalker you can start a forge and try to go into a macro game. I usually take a third and try to do a timing with blink stalker chargelot/archon before they get too much colossi (making immortals is like a really bad idea they just lift them up ). It still is possible to win in this situation even if it's hard ( a commun mistake from the phenix players perpective is to tech to collosus too late and being overly safe vs blink stalker all-ins with too many immortals, meaning that a bunch of zealot archon becomes very effective in the midgame)
On February 13 2015 09:39 Tiaraju9 wrote: I'm sure this was already talked about, but I'll ask anyways.
My usual build in PvP is gate, nexus, then robo. If the oponnent is going phoenix harass into nexus, I don't know to react properly. I tried many things, but I always ended up losing my precious ladder points.
At this point I'm just accepting it as a build order loss... What's the ideal response in this case?
I think you just flat out lose because its build order loss if they choose to all in you.
However, if you want to shift the odds slightly more into your favor, I suggest trying to get out a proxy pylon and trying to base race them. Since you have more buildings you have a slight advantage in that regard ^^
Hi there I would like to add some cheesy build in my arsenal vs terran. I know the proxy oracle, but with scv early scout, as terran see 2 gas before nexus, he gets fast turrets. I saw some people doing some kind of void/stalker...anyone knows the bo? Or proxy tempest? How to do them?
I need help in pvz. I usually open I gate into expand.behind a msc stalker zealot poke. I.get a forge then 2 gates. +1 attack and a robo. I get a warp prism and harass and use a pheonix to scout. I dont know how to respond when zerg gets a thirdnbut doesnt saturate it but instead gets a fast lair.and.hydras.
My response is to get 2 collosi and range while getting my third up and running. If the zerg.responds by getting a hive for.vipers I can respond fine with templar, but I dont know.how to respond if I.scout a spire.
I feel I have enough gas to.get enough stalkers in case of corruptors, but I die or take critical damage to my econ to a muta switch at this point almost every game. Any help.on the proper response or a pro video?
On February 15 2015 06:06 Icekin wrote: Hi there I would like to add some cheesy build in my arsenal vs terran. I know the proxy oracle, but with scv early scout, as terran see 2 gas before nexus, he gets fast turrets. I saw some people doing some kind of void/stalker...anyone knows the bo? Or proxy tempest? How to do them?
I use this build whenever I want to throw off a Terran, and although I wouldn't classify it as a cheese you have a large potential for damage (and if you don't get anything done you lose). It opens with double gas into oracle pressure (which can be proxied or not depending on the map) but follows up with fast 3 gate stalker pressure if the T commits to early turrets. Behind this you should be macroing and if you kill enough workers (~10-15 depending on how much you commit and lose in the attacks) you should be ahead.
9 Pylon 13 Gateway 15 2xAssimilator (2 probes in each) 17 Pylon 18 Cybernetics Core 19 Zealot @100% core -> Cancel zealot and start Stalker and MSC* @275 minerals -> cancel stalker to afford Nexus (cut probes after MSC) 23 Stargate (resume probes) 24 Warpgate + Pylon 28 Stalker @100% Stargate -> Oracle (chrono) @100% Oracle -> 2nd Oracle @~6:00 -> 2x Gateways Get double gas on natural behind aggression (follow up with ~8:30 robo then 9:00 forge)
VODS: Dear vs Gumiho (he does a lot of damage with his early oracle so he doesn't need to commit to the gateway pressure) : Dear vs Center: Dear vs MMA (Dear plays it slightly differently here due to what he scouts):
That being said there is a great resource for bullshit protoss builds here:
Thanks for the answer. This is pretty much an opening, not really a cheese. I often try this kind of opening too, but as terran scouts 2 gas, it builds turrents, so oracle does little damage, while i'm behind in tech. I should try to pressure after oracle instead of going straight for colossus.
By the way, I was searching something more cheesy off 1 base
Sorry, just wondering... why would you guys keep trying to open oracle in pvt and then justify being behind (which is obviously so)? Isn't it easier to open standard?
edit: 1 base cheeses in pvt are pretty much dead... just accept that. Any of these can actually work but it mostly relies on oponent not scouting. In this scenario you can try someting super crazy and out of meta like 10gate 3 gate or proxy 4 gate etc.
Standard Oracle openers aren't done off one base, nor are they cheesy. It's just something that can do considerable damage, usually pays for itself even with minimal scv kills because of the scouting and map control you get, and if the terran screws up it's game ending.
As with basically every Protoss build it isn't something you could do every game in a bo7 and expect it to do major damage every time, but it's a strong, viable build nonetheless, even if your opponent scouts it or expectis.
In case someone wondering, my statement about 1 base cheeses was made in response to Icekin who asked for something cheesy of 1 base.
About oracle openings - yes, i agree with Teoita, but this opening is much more volatile and unstable compared to standard robo/blink and it was so popular recently that every single terran knows how to react properly so in most cases u end up with 1-2 scv kills that IMO can't be considered as a decent result.
It's very map dependant. On some maps that have a 3rd in the middle of fucking nowhere robo/blink is much worse than colossus/phoenix because there's too much room to drop for your stalkers to cover it effectively.
EPT
