EPTThe HotS Protoss Help Me Thread - Page 323
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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imabigboi
26 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
On January 31 2015 01:56 imabigboi wrote: Quick question, in pvp, opponent suicides oracle to kill 5ish probes. Am I behind? Do I have to deal damage to even the game? What if opponent suicides another oracle for 5 more probes? Thx for ur answer in advance! Yes you are behind with 5 probes killed. With 10 probes killed in the early game u should gg straight away. | ||
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James123
France34 Posts
On January 31 2015 01:56 imabigboi wrote: Quick question, in pvp, opponent suicides oracle to kill 5ish probes. Am I behind? Do I have to deal damage to even the game? What if opponent suicides another oracle for 5 more probes? Thx for ur answer in advance! In one base vs one base type of senario, yes you are. However if you expanded and he killed 5 probes but have a delay expand compare to yours then I think it's ok. 5 kills is basicly what you are looking for with one oracle. | ||
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Xinzoe
Korea (South)2373 Posts
On January 30 2015 20:55 SatedSC2 wrote: Standard 1 Gate FE: 9 Pylon 13 Gateway 15 Assimilator 16 Pylon 18 Cybernetics Core (Scout for Hatchery block) 19 Zealot (You can cancel this if you're not getting Hatchery blocked or Zergling rushed, but I personally don't...) 22 Cut Probes 22 Nexus 22 MSC 22 Warpgate 22 Pylon 22 Resume Probes 23 Assimilator (2) You get gas straight after MSC/Warpgate btw. 22 pylon can be delayed, there is a big window where you won't get supply blocked after you start stalker as well | ||
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Icekin
88 Posts
I'd like to know the standard build order for a passive macro game vs terran. (a replay/vod would be awesome) I usually mess with build order after 2nd nexus, and terran outproduce me with this kind of playstyle. I open standard gate exp, I get out 2 stalker and msc while I build fast robo Then there are first questions. I have 3 things to do, and I don't get the exact order: should I add first 2 gates, or robo bay? Does My first gate keep warping units? I usually go for fast robo bay, delayng extra 2 gates, and start colossus production asap I get less units for the 10 min push, and if it happens with medivacs I usually loose 1 colossus or 2 for marauder focus. I try micro colossus back, and this is the only way I win the fight, because the few gate units kill terran forces while they kill my colossus. Mostly I win the fight and I'm left with few stalker and a colossus. Should I delay robo bay for 2 extra gate and more gate units? If I delay colossus terrans kills a way lots of my gate units, and he does a good trade. With 3 gate robo, shall I keep warping units asap or shall I skip some warp to get robo bay and colossus? And what kind of units should I warp? I saw some people go for heavy zealot and few sentry: while this is good to defend from a frontal push, i think you cannot defend from a 11 min push with medivacs without stalkers (drops). Then, I usually take third after terran push, but then I loose because I delayed ht/storm tech. When should I place the forge and the twilight council assuming I won't pressure the terran? Before taking third? Also, is there any any good way to avoid my colossus getting one shot from vikings? In late game I build heavy zealot army with charge, colossus and ht, with only few stalker (they get melted from marauders and costs a lot). Even if I get to 10-12 stalker, they take too much time to kill 10 viking. It's so bad to see 4 colossus die without shooting a single time, expecially when vikings are microed outside storms. Bu maybe it's just matter of engage positioning.. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On January 31 2015 18:46 Icekin wrote: Hi there I'd like to know the standard build order for a passive macro game vs terran. (a replay/vod would be awesome) I usually mess with build order after 2nd nexus, and terran outproduce me with this kind of playstyle. I open standard gate exp, I get out 2 stalker and msc while I build fast robo Then there are first questions. I have 3 things to do, and I don't get the exact order: should I add first 2 gates, or robo bay? Does My first gate keep warping units? I usually go for fast robo bay, delayng extra 2 gates, and start colossus production asap I get less units for the 10 min push, and if it happens with medivacs I usually loose 1 colossus or 2 for marauder focus. I try micro colossus back, and this is the only way I win the fight, because the few gate units kill terran forces while they kill my colossus. Mostly I win the fight and I'm left with few stalker and a colossus. Should I delay robo bay for 2 extra gate and more gate units? If I delay colossus terrans kills a way lots of my gate units, and he does a good trade. With 3 gate robo, shall I keep warping units asap or shall I skip some warp to get robo bay and colossus? And what kind of units should I warp? I saw some people go for heavy zealot and few sentry: while this is good to defend from a frontal push, i think you cannot defend from a 11 min push with medivacs without stalkers (drops). Then, I usually take third after terran push, but then I loose because I delayed ht/storm tech. When should I place the forge and the twilight council assuming I won't pressure the terran? Before taking third? Also, is there any any good way to avoid my colossus getting one shot from vikings? In late game I build heavy zealot army with charge, colossus and ht, with only few stalker (they get melted from marauders and costs a lot). Even if I get to 10-12 stalker, they take too much time to kill 10 viking. It's so bad to see 4 colossus die without shooting a single time, expecially when vikings are microed outside storms. Bu maybe it's just matter of engage positioning.. Most of what you ask depends on your scouting information. It also depends on your forge timing, as if you plan on starting it after your robo bay, you can get 2 gateways before the robo bay without delaying the first colossus, which can be a nice compromise. The first thing you want to identify, assuming a standard reaper expand, is whether your opponent is following up with a factory or 2 additional barracks. If he goes factory, then you can and should delay colossus for a while. You won't have any colossus out in time for the marine/widow mine pressure and stim will be severely delayed by the 1-1-1, so you don't need to rush out splash damage. So, in this situation you just chronoboost out 3 observers (send one to your opponent's base, and keep the other 2 in each mineral line), get fast 3 warpgates and immediately start warping in only stalkers. If it's a 3 rax follow up, there can still be different things the terran is going for, but you will have the observer to scout that. If your opponent goes for a quick timing with few marines, you just trade an overcharge. The only tricky thing is a timing that hits during the 9th minute mark with combat shield, stimpack and marauders. However you should be able to scout this with the observer with a large anticipation. If you go for a fast colossus, even if you might get it out in time, you won't have many units to protect it, and might still lose. So, you should delay your colossus and chronoboost out an immortal instead, and warp in as many units as you can. Against a marine marauder timing you should warp in zealots and sentries imo (since you don't have blink). Just be careful not to get your sentries sniped. Anything that comes later (2 medivacs timing) can be dealt with easily with 1 gate into robo bay. It's actually not important to have stalkers against 2 medivacs. Without blink, you can't count on sniping those anyway. With a colossus into blink build you can have blink by 11:00 or so (twilight council starts at ~7:30) , and that's when you really start warping in stalkers, but only if necessary (heavy drop play). There's not a right or wrong timing to put down your forge, in general. Obviously, if you're going double forge, then you usually build them a bit later. Personally I like to go 1 forge after my robo bay, and add a 2nd forge after my third base. You just need to keep in mind that starting a forge earlier equals playing greedier. In the midgame, you can either go for very quick storms, or keep on building colossus. Again, there's no right or wrong, teching up to hts quickly is risky, but more rewarding if you're able to get a lot of storms out. Carrying on with the colossus/blink stalker route is safer at first, but it's not very good if your opponent plays a bit more passive during the midgame. You can't really skip stalkers if you're building colossi, at this point you might as well go 1 colossus without range into high templars. Storms aren't enough to protect colossi especially when you have only a few of them. The terran player, at that point, can just shift click your colossi with the vikings and then engage with the rest of the army. So, having around 12 stalkers is a must. Besides, it all comes down to army positioning and control. You need to have the stalkers in the right place to focus down vikings before they can start sniping your colossi, and not the opposite. It's not easy, however if you watch pros you can see them winning engagements like these all the time, because after all the vikings are sniped by stalkers there are still 3 colossi alive, and there's nothing the terran player can do at that point. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13389 Posts
On January 31 2015 21:09 SatedSC2 wrote: No, I don't get gas straight after the MSC/WG. I chrono boost Probes and rally them into the Assimilator after placing it down, so if I don't get the Pylon first then I get supply blocked. I wouldn't get supply blocked if I cancelled the Zealot, but I don't do that because it leads to dumb losses against Zergling rushes. Not that it really matters. It's a very small detail and doesn't change much about how the game pans out. Depends on the mid game plan and first tech you are opening for. If you choose to go for Stargate the quicker gas is really good. Also few people rush lings and you can always add the zealot back on afterwards if you are super worried about it, but I don't think its worth delaying the nexus tbh. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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Motlu
Australia884 Posts
I was looking at Dear's recent PvT games in which he rushes out an oracle after expand and goes into fast 3 gates for gateway pressure. I have a few questions about the build and want to know your thoughts on it. The build order is as follows: 9 Pylon 13 Gateway 15 2xAssimilator (2 probes in each) 17 Pylon 18 Cybernetics Core 19 Zealot @100% core -> Cancel zealot and start Stalker and MSC* @275 minerals -> cancel stalker to afford Nexus (cut probes after MSC) 23 Stargate (resume probes) 24 Warpgate + Pylon 28 Stalker @100% Stargate -> Oracle (chrono) @100% Oracle -> 2nd Oracle @~6:00 -> 2x Gateways After this his transitions differ in all games. Vs Gumiho who was doing a marine/widow mine drop he started a phoenix after his second oracle and went into a ~8:00 robo and ~9:00 forge. From here he took a third, went up to 3 colossus and started a storm/immortal archon chargelot transition ala Super vs Fantasy. (his first oracle killed 13 workers giving him a huge economic lead which is perhaps the reason he did not decide to be aggressive with his 3 gateways as he did in the other games) Vs Center who went for a proxy factory and starport into widow mine drop and tank push he warped in stalkers at his proxy pylon and defended with photon overcharge and his oracles while pushing the front of Center for the win. Note: He proxied the Stargate vs Center. Vs MMA things panned out a little differently as he spotted 2 hellions moving out on the map with his scouting probe and chose to take a second gateway earlier to wall off his main. After the aggression was repelled he added 2 more gates at 7 minutes and attacked to cripple MMA while preparing a colossus transition at home. What are your thoughts on this build? Is it all in or can you play it out in a macro style without dealing crippling damage with the oracle or gateway attack? How would it fare vs a non-gas first opening? *Note: I am not sure why he cancels the zealot for a stalker only to cancel it for the nexus, and I have never seen another Protoss do this. From what I can guess, the reasoning for this may be to defend vs a proxy barracks build. This checks out with the timings as he cancels the stalker at around 3:50-4:00 and most proxy barracks builds show themselves before or around this time. VODS: Dear vs Gumiho: Dear vs Center: Dear vs MMA (Dear plays it slightly differently here due to what he scouts): Sorry for that wall of text | ||
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Psychotikah
Canada101 Posts
On January 31 2015 22:38 KingAlphard wrote: The first thing you want to identify, assuming a standard reaper expand, is whether your opponent is following up with a factory or 2 additional barracks. If he goes factory, then you can and should delay colossus for a while. You won't have any colossus out in time for the marine/widow mine pressure and stim will be severely delayed by the 1-1-1, so you don't need to rush out splash damage. So, in this situation you just chronoboost out 3 observers (send one to your opponent's base, and keep the other 2 in each mineral line), get fast 3 warpgates and immediately start warping in only stalkers. If it's a 3 rax follow up, there can still be different things the terran is going for, but you will have the observer to scout that. If your opponent goes for a quick timing with few marines, you just trade an overcharge. I would like to know how is the most efficient way to actually get to scout what the terran is doing after the reaper gets out? If you try to hide the probe and get in when the reaper is heading for your base, you should be greeted by marines no? And usually your first obs gets there to late to spot heavy early pressure no? Am I missing something? | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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insitelol
845 Posts
Even if i scout i need to build templars they cost so fucking much so even if i feedback 3 of 4 they still pull 1-2 colosi / BC and steamroll this is stupid as fuck. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On February 02 2015 04:49 insitelol wrote: ANy1 knows how to deal with zerg rushing for ~14 min vipers? (standard SG oracle into robo 3rd base). Even if i scout i need to build templars they cost so fucking much so even if i feedback 3 of 4 they still pull 1-2 colosi / BC and steamroll this is stupid as fuck. Well there's not much you can do in terms of "easy tricks". Maybe the only things I could say are: tag the vipers with the oracle, and hallucinate a few colossi (this almost never works though). Other than that it's all about the HT/colossus micro but also the macro, since this timing can hit before you're maxed out. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24231 Posts
On February 02 2015 04:49 insitelol wrote: ANy1 knows how to deal with zerg rushing for ~14 min vipers? (standard SG oracle into robo 3rd base). Even if i scout i need to build templars they cost so fucking much so even if i feedback 3 of 4 they still pull 1-2 colosi / BC and steamroll this is stupid as fuck. It's quite simple really. As soon as you scout the hive morphing, you make your twilight and follow it up with templar archives with a lot of gates (up to 10-12 on 3 bases). Even if he goes ultras -which the upgrades on the zerglings should indicate, if he doesn't upgrade melee his ultras won't be that strong- you'll use it to make archons. Once the viper transition is certain (if he has a standard roach hydra army quick hive can't really mean anything else than 14ish min viper max attack) you just stop spending any gas. Literally. No stalkers, no void rays, no more colossi. In that scenario I research charge because I can usually finish it for the attack and it's quite useful since I'm warping mostly zealots but I'm not sure it's essential. If your templar archive was timed OKish and you manage to feedback the vipers you'll crush the attack. Don't forget to abuse hallucination to confuse the Z and tag his army with his oracle/keep an eye on it with your phoenix depending on your harass choice. Having a warp prism at his base during the attack is also a very good idea. | ||
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insitelol
845 Posts
On February 02 2015 05:35 [PkF] Wire wrote: It's quite simple really. As soon as you scout the hive morphing, you make your twilight and follow it up with templar archives with a lot of gates (up to 10-12 on 3 bases). Even if he goes ultras -which the upgrades on the zerglings should indicate, if he doesn't upgrade melee his ultras won't be that strong- you'll use it to make archons. Once the viper transition is certain (if he has a standard roach hydra army quick hive can't really mean anything else than 14ish min viper max attack) you just stop spending any gas. Literally. No stalkers, no void rays, no more colossi. In that scenario I research charge because I can usually finish it for the attack and it's quite useful since I'm warping mostly zealots but I'm not sure it's essential. If your templar archive was timed OKish and you manage to feedback the vipers you'll crush the attack. Don't forget to abuse hallucination to confuse the Z and tag his army with his oracle/keep an eye on it with your phoenix depending on your harass choice. Having a warp prism at his base during the attack is also a very good idea. Mate thanks for the answer but can u be a bit more specific - what type of comp do u use to beat 200|200 roach hydra viper? zealots + archons? Sounds a bit suicidal to me. can u provide a replay im interested in this | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24231 Posts
On February 02 2015 05:40 insitelol wrote: Mate thanks for the answer but can u be a bit more specific - what type of comp do u use to beat 200|200 roach hydra viper? zealots? When you scout it you should already have 2-3 colossi. Leave it at 3. I personally have a bunch of void rays too, you can have blink stalkers, this is all OK. Yeah, strange as it may seem, if your feedback control is on point, you can deflect his 200/200 roach hydra viper attack with 170ish supply of 3 colossi / 3-4 void rays or 8-10 blink stalkers / your initial sentries / the templars you can afford and zealots. Like I said before don't forget hallucination, position yourself well and try not feedbacking the same viper multiple times. Everything should then be alright. There must be other ways to deal with those tricky attacks, but this is the one I know. | ||
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DinoMight
United States3725 Posts
I've been doing this with a fair amount of success but I'm pretty sure it's stupid. -21 nexus off 1 gas into standard Colossus. Add templar after 2 or 3 Colos -Get a 3rd base at the standard time or maybe just a little late -Skip upgrades completely and instead get 2 Stargates and chrono out.... Carriers -Turn MSC into full Mothership and all-in off 3 bases I think the reason it works is that the micro the Terran has to do becomes A LOT more complicated when you add scanning for detection and also focus firing things with his army (otherwise Interceptors make everything go crazy). Is this REALLY stupid? Or is there actual merit to it? Also (separate question) are there any good 2 base allins vs. Terran that one can do? The 3rd are so far! But I feel like most 2 base allins are easily held by simply not attacking and committing all to defense. | ||
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KingAlphard
Italy1705 Posts
On February 03 2015 07:40 DinoMight wrote: Hi all, question about my stupid PvT build: I've been doing this with a fair amount of success but I'm pretty sure it's stupid. -21 nexus off 1 gas into standard Colossus. Add templar after 2 or 3 Colos -Get a 3rd base at the standard time or maybe just a little late -Skip upgrades completely and instead get 2 Stargates and chrono out.... Carriers -Turn MSC into full Mothership and all-in off 3 bases I think the reason it works is that the micro the Terran has to do becomes A LOT more complicated when you add scanning for detection and also focus firing things with his army (otherwise Interceptors make everything go crazy). Is this REALLY stupid? Or is there actual merit to it? Also (separate question) are there any good 2 base allins vs. Terran that one can do? The 3rd are so far! But I feel like most 2 base allins are easily held by simply not attacking and committing all to defense. Carriers are really strong against terran, both bio and mech, but I don't think it's a good idea in general to make timings with them, since it takes so long for them to produce. It's much easier to warp in a bunch of stalkers on the other side of the map and use them to deal with vikings. Skipping upgrades also isn't worth it. | ||
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SatedSC2
England3012 Posts
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