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On January 22 2015 19:04 StalkerFang wrote:
Hi guys. I've been having a lot of trouble against meching terrans lately. My basic problem is I have absolutely no idea what sort of army composition I should be heading towards and when I should be attacking. I've tried a really immortal heavy composition but whatever marines they have as well as hellbats seem to run me over. I go towards air and then they just run me over and walk straight past a few void rays to kill all my bases.
So I guess my specific question is, what army composition should I head towards in the mid to late game against a meching terran? Also, when should I try and attack, in a general sense (maxed out, before he masses ravens etc)?
Thanks!
What Wire explained is the standard answer. If you want, you can also try to go straight into carriers. Go for an oracle into phoenixes opening which should crush any attempt to harass (marine drops, hellions, widow mines, banshees are all easily countered by the oracle+phoenixes combo).
Then get 2 stargates + fleet beacon off of 2 bases and chronoboost carriers out. Take your third whenever you feel comfortable and add storms once you're on 6 gases. Then you can try to execute a carrier/archon/storm timing which is very strong unless he already has a lot of air units.
If not, keep macroing, Carrier/archon/hts beats any composition that doesn't involve BCs. If he gets BCs, then you need to switch to tempests and prepare for a very long game.
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Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line!
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On January 23 2015 05:04 Larkin wrote:
Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line!
You don't need a forge to defend against that kind of attack, just go stalker stalker and keep your obs at home. You don't have to pull out a perfect defense to come out ahead against such builds, just quickly add more gates, delay gas on your natural, be defensive with your obs, use overcharge wisely and you should be more than fine.
And to answer your question -just realized I wasn't doing so  - I don't think there is a way to know it for certain. Anyway all those attacks are deflected with early robo and 3 stalkers, so I'm not sure you need to know.
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On January 23 2015 05:04 Larkin wrote:
Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line!
Don't go for forge, it's quite bad to do it that early. Maybe it's just my preference, but I always prefer to rely purely on stalkers/observers or oracles/phoenixes.
In general, if you have stalkers/observers or oracles/phoenixes you can easily deal with any unit that can be used to pressure with 1-1-1, so you shouldn't care too much about that.
However, if there is a reactor on the factory, 2 hellions are always built as soon as the factory finishes, because the gas is needed for the starport.
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On January 23 2015 05:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 05:04 Larkin wrote:
Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line! You don't need a forge to defend against that kind of attack, just go stalker stalker and keep your obs at home. You don't have to pull out a perfect defense to come out ahead against such builds, just quickly add more gates, delay gas on your natural, be defensive with your obs, use overcharge wisely and you should be more than fine. And to answer your question -just realized I wasn't doing so - I don't think there is a way to know it for certain. Anyway all those attacks are deflected with early robo and 3 stalkers, so I'm not sure you need to know.
Yeah I know early robo is best but I like to open stargate for an oracle, and the fear is if I lose the oracle I am without detection and the robo is late.
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On January 23 2015 05:57 Larkin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 05:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 23 2015 05:04 Larkin wrote:
Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line! You don't need a forge to defend against that kind of attack, just go stalker stalker and keep your obs at home. You don't have to pull out a perfect defense to come out ahead against such builds, just quickly add more gates, delay gas on your natural, be defensive with your obs, use overcharge wisely and you should be more than fine. And to answer your question -just realized I wasn't doing so - I don't think there is a way to know it for certain. Anyway all those attacks are deflected with early robo and 3 stalkers, so I'm not sure you need to know. Yeah I know early robo is best but I like to open stargate for an oracle, and the fear is if I lose the oracle I am without detection and the robo is late.
You can go for phoenix. They're good against hellions and mines (they can lift mines before they burrow). I'm not a specialist of stargate vs T so I'll leave more knowledgeable persons answer though. But I know everytime I see Rain going oracle vs 1-1-1 agression he convincingly win by holding the attack and counterattacking with 3 gates worth of stalkers + oracles/phoenix.
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On January 23 2015 06:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 05:57 Larkin wrote:On January 23 2015 05:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 23 2015 05:04 Larkin wrote:
Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line! You don't need a forge to defend against that kind of attack, just go stalker stalker and keep your obs at home. You don't have to pull out a perfect defense to come out ahead against such builds, just quickly add more gates, delay gas on your natural, be defensive with your obs, use overcharge wisely and you should be more than fine. And to answer your question -just realized I wasn't doing so - I don't think there is a way to know it for certain. Anyway all those attacks are deflected with early robo and 3 stalkers, so I'm not sure you need to know. Yeah I know early robo is best but I like to open stargate for an oracle, and the fear is if I lose the oracle I am without detection and the robo is late. You can go for phoenix. They're good against hellions and mines (they can lift mines before they burrow). I'm not a specialist of stargate vs T so I'll leave more knowledgeable persons answer though. But I know everytime I see Rain going oracle vs 1-1-1 agression he convincingly win by holding the attack and counterattacking with 3 gates worth of stalkers + oracles/phoenix.
However, he is Rain. I, sadly, am not  my control isn't quite on that level. I've been experimenting with phoenix colossus a lot more recently but I still find myself susceptible to pre colossus timings. Plenty to improve on though!
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On January 23 2015 06:09 [PkF] Wire wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 05:57 Larkin wrote:On January 23 2015 05:23 [PkF] Wire wrote:On January 23 2015 05:04 Larkin wrote:
Is there a simple way to determine whether a Terran is going for hellions or mines when I scout 1 rax factory reactor with 2 gas? I often cannot scout again after this initial scout until it's too late, so I have to prepare for both with forge + more stalkers than I would like (sacrificing more eco or tech). And I hate thinking "definitely hellions" only to have a mine drop into my mineral line! You don't need a forge to defend against that kind of attack, just go stalker stalker and keep your obs at home. You don't have to pull out a perfect defense to come out ahead against such builds, just quickly add more gates, delay gas on your natural, be defensive with your obs, use overcharge wisely and you should be more than fine. And to answer your question -just realized I wasn't doing so - I don't think there is a way to know it for certain. Anyway all those attacks are deflected with early robo and 3 stalkers, so I'm not sure you need to know. Yeah I know early robo is best but I like to open stargate for an oracle, and the fear is if I lose the oracle I am without detection and the robo is late. You can go for phoenix. They're good against hellions and mines (they can lift mines before they burrow). I'm not a specialist of stargate vs T so I'll leave more knowledgeable persons answer though. But I know everytime I see Rain going oracle vs 1-1-1 agression he convincingly win by holding the attack and counterattacking with 3 gates worth of stalkers + oracles/phoenix.
I open with stargate very often, and it's one of the best ways to defend 1-1-1. Oracle provides detection, but you can also use it to quickly kill marines, hellions and widow mines before they burrow. Phoenixes can lift widow mines and hellions and snipe medivacs. And you can immediately go to the other side of the map and harass with your air units.
You can counter attack with 3 gates, but you don't always win and you should be careful not to overcommit. You can also switch to robotics tech immediately and take your gases at the natural.
EDIT: It's not that hard. You just have to position your oracle/phoenixes so that they cover as much surface as possible around your main and in the back of your natural. And pay attention to the minimap.
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On January 23 2015 06:18 KingAlphard wrote:
EDIT: It's not that hard. You just have to position your oracle/phoenixes so that they cover as much surface as possible around your main and in the back of your natural. And pay attention to the minimap.
Easy enough when you say it like that but I will try!
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Am I mad or just unlucky with my PvZ on Inferno map?
3 pvz in a row, everytime they went quite late 3rd (like, closer to 6th than 5th minute) and go blind roaches. Once even good old roach max on two bases lol.
So, is this map weird, I have an awful luck when I want to all-in (I checked replays, none had the idea what I'm doing) or did meta on ladder shit? :D
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On January 23 2015 11:05 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
Am I mad or just unlucky with my PvZ on Inferno map?
3 pvz in a row, everytime they went quite late 3rd (like, closer to 6th than 5th minute) and go blind roaches. Once even good old roach max on two bases lol.
So, is this map weird, I have an awful luck when I want to all-in (I checked replays, none had the idea what I'm doing) or did meta on ladder shit? :D
I think you can open stargate with a voidray which should shutdown the roaches. I have been having a similar problem to you as well though and finding the right time to transition away from voids to get collosi for the hydras has been difficult. so far my only good answer is to veto it haha.
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On January 23 2015 01:02 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2015 19:04 StalkerFang wrote:
Hi guys. I've been having a lot of trouble against meching terrans lately. My basic problem is I have absolutely no idea what sort of army composition I should be heading towards and when I should be attacking. I've tried a really immortal heavy composition but whatever marines they have as well as hellbats seem to run me over. I go towards air and then they just run me over and walk straight past a few void rays to kill all my bases.
So I guess my specific question is, what army composition should I head towards in the mid to late game against a meching terran? Also, when should I try and attack, in a general sense (maxed out, before he masses ravens etc)?
Thanks! What Wire explained is the standard answer. If you want, you can also try to go straight into carriers. Go for an oracle into phoenixes opening which should crush any attempt to harass (marine drops, hellions, widow mines, banshees are all easily countered by the oracle+phoenixes combo). Then get 2 stargates + fleet beacon off of 2 bases and chronoboost carriers out. Take your third whenever you feel comfortable and add storms once you're on 6 gases. Then you can try to execute a carrier/archon/storm timing which is very strong unless he already has a lot of air units. If not, keep macroing, Carrier/archon/hts beats any composition that doesn't involve BCs. If he gets BCs, then you need to switch to tempests and prepare for a very long game.
As for me, i'd never recommend going carriers agains any1, especially against terran mech. Especially from 2 bases. If this is scouted - you will be easily countered simply by massing vikings and after thay you are stucked with alomost useless limit for upcoming lategame where a competent meching terran will obviously go mass ravens which counter EVERYTHING so you lose horribly.
I do not pretend i know everything about meching terrans but here's my 2 cents:
When you scout it is mech just add a second robo for x2 immortal production (this all assuming you open standard gate-nexus-robo) when you fully saturate your natural and go for a quick third. Composition you aim at may vary depending on what terran is building but usually its hellbat/tank/viking with ravens (at first for support with the transition into 200/200 ravens). So your goal is to prevent him to getting that composition. So, while going for the 3rd, poke him with your moar mobile army consisting of few 1-2colosi/immortals and stalkers, drop dt/zealots on main (if possible), etc. After you are on full 3 base economy add 2-3 stargates and go for 1-2 oracles for constant revelation and mass tempests then add ht.
So what do we have at ~16-18 min mark: immortal/colosi(very few)/tempest/ht. After that you siege terran and force ravens to waste mana on pdd/feedback them/storm etc and PREVENT terran from expanding until he runs of out of bank/army.
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As for me, i'd never recommend going carriers agains any1, especially against terran mech. Especially from 2 bases. If this is scouted - you will be easily countered simply by massing vikings and after thay you are stucked with alomost useless limit for upcoming lategame where a competent meching terran will obviously go mass ravens which counter EVERYTHING so you lose horribly.
Vikings aren't cost efficient against carriers. Yes, they are easier to produce, but you first need to get 3 starports with reactor AND cross the map. As a protoss player, you can also rely on photon cannons, and photon overcharge. Once you get storms too, you can just amove across the map and stomp through everything.
There are a few pushes that I lost to occasionally (Thors/widow mines and a few vikings) but a mass vikings attack is something I never even had to face.
Mass ravens doesn't counter everything alone. Carriers/archonts/hts is really good against ravens/vikings with no BCs. PDD doesn't work against anything in your army and you can just pull back when seekers are used, with storms to safely retreat. BCs are the only true counter to carriers. The annoying part is when the terran player gets mass BCs/ravens and a few tanks to deal with hts. At that point, you go into a very long macro game with tempests/hts but you can still win.
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Yeah, a lot of people don't seem to realize pdd doesn't work against interceptors.
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MaNa - HeRoMaRinE on Overgrowth also shows how you can soundly break your meching opponent if he tries to get a third faster than you. With a sprinkle of units that you can get very easily from any reasonable opening (1-2 colossi, 2 immortals and some blink stalkers), you can basically ensure the T is not getting his third before you. With appropriate micro it is even very possible to break him with just blink stalkers, immortals and 2 range colossi.
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On January 23 2015 11:05 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
Am I mad or just unlucky with my PvZ on Inferno map?
3 pvz in a row, everytime they went quite late 3rd (like, closer to 6th than 5th minute) and go blind roaches. Once even good old roach max on two bases lol.
So, is this map weird, I have an awful luck when I want to all-in (I checked replays, none had the idea what I'm doing) or did meta on ladder shit? :D
Honestly for me this map is insta veto, 14/14 is just stupidly strong and the gold base kinda force you to do some sort of all-ins, usually in the dark since the map is 4 player and you have to be really lucky to get any scouting done. The map might be playable in PvZ if it becomes cross only.
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On January 26 2015 18:53 PtitDrogo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2015 11:05 OsaX Nymloth wrote:
Am I mad or just unlucky with my PvZ on Inferno map?
3 pvz in a row, everytime they went quite late 3rd (like, closer to 6th than 5th minute) and go blind roaches. Once even good old roach max on two bases lol.
So, is this map weird, I have an awful luck when I want to all-in (I checked replays, none had the idea what I'm doing) or did meta on ladder shit? :D Honestly for me this map is insta veto, 14/14 is just stupidly strong and the gold base kinda force you to do some sort of all-ins, usually in the dark since the map is 4 player and you have to be really lucky to get any scouting done. The map might be playable in PvZ if it becomes cross only.
I actually like bigger maps, allows me to abuse things like recall, blink stalkers and warp prisms. Especially dismanlting zerg with just WP is sweet on this map. But well, I'm nowhere near your level ^^'
Anyway I just had some very unlucky day, since then I'm about 90% in pvz lol. Guess it was one of those days the starcraft gods are saying "stay in bed, scrub". :D
Also: I hate terrans so freaking much. My mindset is so bad I want to leave as soon as I see terran on loading screen. 
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How do you beat mass Raven? Even when you are ahead in macro, upgrades, structures., etc. I seem to always get the wrong unit composition...
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On January 28 2015 06:23 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:How do you beat mass Raven? Even when you are ahead in macro, upgrades, structures., etc. I seem to always get the wrong unit composition...
Raven and...? It's never only raven. If it was only raven, then the counter would be pretty obvious, aka hts for feedbacks.
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On January 28 2015 06:36 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 06:23 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:How do you beat mass Raven? Even when you are ahead in macro, upgrades, structures., etc. I seem to always get the wrong unit composition... Raven and...? It's never only raven. If it was only raven, then the counter would be pretty obvious, aka hts for feedbacks.
It literally was just Ravens. He didn't really have anything else because I kept denying expansions. HTs was not enough.
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EPT
