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United States7483 Posts
On January 28 2015 06:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 06:36 KingAlphard wrote:On January 28 2015 06:23 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:How do you beat mass Raven? Even when you are ahead in macro, upgrades, structures., etc. I seem to always get the wrong unit composition...  Raven and...? It's never only raven. If it was only raven, then the counter would be pretty obvious, aka hts for feedbacks. It literally was just Ravens. He didn't really have anything else because I kept denying expansions. HTs was not enough.
High Templar for feedbacks and storms on the ravens and colossi to kill turrets. You just play the defensive game forcing him to come to you, and storm him when he does. Don't charge in or you'll get seeker missiled. It's just a micro game from there, and you should have all the advantages.
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On January 28 2015 06:43 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 06:36 KingAlphard wrote:On January 28 2015 06:23 HelpMeGetBetter wrote:How do you beat mass Raven? Even when you are ahead in macro, upgrades, structures., etc. I seem to always get the wrong unit composition... Raven and...? It's never only raven. If it was only raven, then the counter would be pretty obvious, aka hts for feedbacks. It literally was just Ravens. He didn't really have anything else because I kept denying expansions. HTs was not enough.
What do you mean it was not enough? Literally all you have to do is spam F and everything dies in a second.
You should post the replay, as it is I can only assume that you had terrible micro.
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If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything.
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On January 28 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything.
I personally love the "Phoenix" answer because you can make a suicide run with a Phoenix if he's dumb enough to Seeker Missile you. PDD gets exhausted pretty quick due to double attack at a high rate of fire, and turrets can be ignored in small numbers and avoided in large numbers. (If he's spent a lot of energy on turrets, you've already kind of won.)
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On January 28 2015 08:21 GoStu wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything. I personally love the "Phoenix" answer because you can make a suicide run with a Phoenix if he's dumb enough to Seeker Missile you. PDD gets exhausted pretty quick due to double attack at a high rate of fire, and turrets can be ignored in small numbers and avoided in large numbers. (If he's spent a lot of energy on turrets, you've already kind of won.)
If it's like 10 phoenixes vs 3 ravens I can see it working, but if it gets to the 20+ ravens stage it sounds like a terrible idea. There are way too many PDDs and then phoenixes would die by anything that can shoot up.
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On January 28 2015 09:11 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 08:21 GoStu wrote:On January 28 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything. I personally love the "Phoenix" answer because you can make a suicide run with a Phoenix if he's dumb enough to Seeker Missile you. PDD gets exhausted pretty quick due to double attack at a high rate of fire, and turrets can be ignored in small numbers and avoided in large numbers. (If he's spent a lot of energy on turrets, you've already kind of won.) If it's like 10 phoenixes vs 3 ravens I can see it working, but if it gets to the 20+ ravens stage it sounds like a terrible idea. There are way too many PDDs and then phoenixes would die by anything that can shoot up.
You should probably have already killed him before he is anywhere near 20+ ravens.
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On January 28 2015 20:37 rubor wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 09:11 KingAlphard wrote:On January 28 2015 08:21 GoStu wrote:On January 28 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything. I personally love the "Phoenix" answer because you can make a suicide run with a Phoenix if he's dumb enough to Seeker Missile you. PDD gets exhausted pretty quick due to double attack at a high rate of fire, and turrets can be ignored in small numbers and avoided in large numbers. (If he's spent a lot of energy on turrets, you've already kind of won.) If it's like 10 phoenixes vs 3 ravens I can see it working, but if it gets to the 20+ ravens stage it sounds like a terrible idea. There are way too many PDDs and then phoenixes would die by anything that can shoot up. You should probably have already killed him before he is anywhere near 20+ ravens.
I assume that a terran player isn't completely dumb and gets proper anti air when he sees that you are massing phoenixes.
Like, you can't just run phoenixes into turrets, widow mines, vikings, etc.
If you're talking in general, a terran player can't go straight into mass ravens. What he can do, is go for a standard mech composition and slowly replace hellbats with ravens.
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Hello,
I recently got walloped by a SCV pull on Vaani where the terran got a fast gold base. When I scouted it i felt it was too late too pressure since I was committed to techingto colossi and blink. Anyway, I made a couple bad reads and it was an aweful game and I felt completely helpless with my storm finishing 10 seconds after I had to GG to the boys....
One thing that jumped to my mind after the game was that I scouted no gas with my gateway probe. What would you guys do to punish a no gas terran? Blink all in? Immortal all in? Very fast 3rd?
Thanks for you opinions.
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United States7483 Posts
On January 28 2015 21:56 KingAlphard wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 20:37 rubor wrote:On January 28 2015 09:11 KingAlphard wrote:On January 28 2015 08:21 GoStu wrote:On January 28 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything. I personally love the "Phoenix" answer because you can make a suicide run with a Phoenix if he's dumb enough to Seeker Missile you. PDD gets exhausted pretty quick due to double attack at a high rate of fire, and turrets can be ignored in small numbers and avoided in large numbers. (If he's spent a lot of energy on turrets, you've already kind of won.) If it's like 10 phoenixes vs 3 ravens I can see it working, but if it gets to the 20+ ravens stage it sounds like a terrible idea. There are way too many PDDs and then phoenixes would die by anything that can shoot up. You should probably have already killed him before he is anywhere near 20+ ravens. I assume that a terran player isn't completely dumb and gets proper anti air when he sees that you are massing phoenixes. Like, you can't just run phoenixes into turrets, widow mines, vikings, etc. If you're talking in general, a terran player can't go straight into mass ravens. What he can do, is go for a standard mech composition and slowly replace hellbats with ravens.
Just to be clear: do not go mass phoenix as a response to ravens. It's a terrible idea. A standard ground composition with extra high templar will do fine. If you really want an air presence, you can add on carriers.
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On January 29 2015 06:54 Whitewing wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2015 21:56 KingAlphard wrote:On January 28 2015 20:37 rubor wrote:On January 28 2015 09:11 KingAlphard wrote:On January 28 2015 08:21 GoStu wrote:On January 28 2015 08:00 [PkF] Wire wrote:
If it's "literally just ravens" you can go double stargate phoenix as soon as you identify the transition too, ravens are light and get murdered by phoenix. But as others said before me, HTs are a pretty easy hardcounter and a more versatile one. Just feedback everything. I personally love the "Phoenix" answer because you can make a suicide run with a Phoenix if he's dumb enough to Seeker Missile you. PDD gets exhausted pretty quick due to double attack at a high rate of fire, and turrets can be ignored in small numbers and avoided in large numbers. (If he's spent a lot of energy on turrets, you've already kind of won.) If it's like 10 phoenixes vs 3 ravens I can see it working, but if it gets to the 20+ ravens stage it sounds like a terrible idea. There are way too many PDDs and then phoenixes would die by anything that can shoot up. You should probably have already killed him before he is anywhere near 20+ ravens. I assume that a terran player isn't completely dumb and gets proper anti air when he sees that you are massing phoenixes. Like, you can't just run phoenixes into turrets, widow mines, vikings, etc. If you're talking in general, a terran player can't go straight into mass ravens. What he can do, is go for a standard mech composition and slowly replace hellbats with ravens. Just to be clear: do not go mass phoenix as a response to ravens. It's a terrible idea. A standard ground composition with extra high templar will do fine. If you really want an air presence, you can add on carriers.
Mass phoenix is not a good idea, but going double stargate into 4-6 phoenix as soon as you see multiple tech labs on starports is in my experience decent because it completely denies any banshee/raven harass. Of course mass phoenix doesn't make much sense since thors/mines will murder it. But some phoenix to help against banshees/ravens into HTs for feedbacks tends to work well and I would personally recommend it.
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Italy12246 Posts
Why would you double star into 4-6 phoenixes, they build fast enough from a single stargate.
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On January 29 2015 07:25 Teoita wrote:
Why would you double star into 4-6 phoenixes, they build fast enough from a single stargate.
I tend to bath in money against passive mech styles so 150/150 is something I can afford. I agree this is probably not optimal, but seeing the T sending his banshees into an already fully-fledged float of phoenix is such a gleeful feeling 
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Hey guys,
I'm a high plat Protoss and have the following problems in PvZ:
I can't keep up with the tech switches of my opponent, seemingly they always hard counter whatever I have..
I can't snipe bases without losing half of my army
I don't know how to approach late game in the match up.. I just had a Colossus/Archon/Chargelot comp vs his Roach/Hydra, he then immediately maxed out on Hydra/Ultralisk and then finished me with about 60 Roaches.. I really need help it's the only match up that's dragging me down..
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Canada13379 Posts
On January 30 2015 09:20 Terstegen wrote:
Hey guys,
I'm a high plat Protoss and have the following problems in PvZ:
I can't keep up with the tech switches of my opponent, seemingly they always hard counter whatever I have..
I can't snipe bases without losing half of my army
I don't know how to approach late game in the match up.. I just had a Colossus/Archon/Chargelot comp vs his Roach/Hydra, he then immediately maxed out on Hydra/Ultralisk and then finished me with about 60 Roaches.. I really need help it's the only match up that's dragging me down..
Post some replays and we can offer some help.
As for tech switches, you should be trying to use phoenix hallucinations to look for his tech switches or transitions. The transition you are worried about most will help us to help you.
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Sorry, PvZ Catallena, this is the game where I gave up hope, yes I make a huge micro mistake towards the end but the game was already lost then.. The most difficult switches are when he goes from Roach/Hydra into Muta (not in the replay) and when he just instantly remaxes with Roaches. I'm just completely lost in the match up, I watch sc2 alot and try to adapt certain things, but everytime I play PvZ every minute feels like a minute closer to the loss.. I don't wanna have to all-in or cheese all the time.
Edit: I see an army, react accordingly, beat it and can't deal with the follow-up comp because I'm still stuck on the old army basicly..
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Canada13379 Posts
On January 30 2015 10:40 Terstegen wrote:Sorry, PvZ Catallena, this is the game where I gave up hope, yes I make a huge micro mistake towards the end but the game was already lost then.. The most difficult switches are when he goes from Roach/Hydra into Muta (not in the replay) and when he just instantly remaxes with Roaches. I'm just completely lost in the match up, I watch sc2 alot and try to adapt certain things, but everytime I play PvZ every minute feels like a minute closer to the loss.. I don't wanna have to all-in or cheese all the time. Edit: I see an army, react accordingly, beat it and can't deal with the follow-up comp because I'm still stuck on the old army basicly..
I'm currently working on some stuff, but will load up the replay tonight so you will have some feedback on it specifically tomorrow.
Part of that feeling which I've had before trust me, leads you to losing games. Toss is the proactive one in this matchup, so you need to be scouting their bases with hallu phoenix for gas counts and also tech.
Once you see a lair, you should always be trying to figure out which way hes going. Being on less than 6 gas on 3 base always means no mutas, which means you need robo tech and stalkers. Six gases quickly almost always means mutas which means you should get a stargate or blink and attack before the mutas finish.
I've been trying a 1 gate FE into 3 gates blink 2 more gates (5 total) then take a third build with upgrades. I've been having a lot of fun and it is good against everything but hydra rushes unless you have good micro. Watch Puck or minigun as they do this style often and do stream a lot.
Alternatively, a good safe build is opening stargate into 3rd and then robo for vs collossus. Either way the goals are - scouting, and reacting to the Zerg gas income in the mid game when your ability to be prepared for both mutalisks and hydralisks or big ground army is limited.
In the case of big ground army into mutalisk transition, if you can trounce the ground army and have a lot of gates up with a third base when they attack it, you can usually counter attack and kill them on the muta transition. The issue is not losing too much to the first attack. If they follow it up with swarmhosts it becomes a much longer game.
When it comes to hive tech, its as simple as seeing a hive, and adding templar archives, and keep hallu pheonix scouting and if you see a ultralisk cavern OR heavily upgraded lings (melee and carapace with 2 evos going) adding a second robo before the ultras are done is really good.
Templar are generally good against hive tech - the feedbacks vs vipers if they open and stick to roach hydra and storm as well. Storm for the lings if they go ultra ling means their engages become far less cost effective as well.
So basically hive = templar; ultra cavern = 2 robo immortals.
If you think see a lot of bases and the trades have been even or in the Zerg favour, you will need to worry about muta transitions. Alternatively if they dont attack right when the ultras are done you also need to worry about mutas but I think thats getting a little to advanced in the scouting department for you atm since most zergs wont be hiding their spires in plat too much and you should be seeing it with the active scouting from hallu phoenix or real phoenix.
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On January 30 2015 10:40 Terstegen wrote:Sorry, PvZ Catallena, this is the game where I gave up hope, yes I make a huge micro mistake towards the end but the game was already lost then.. The most difficult switches are when he goes from Roach/Hydra into Muta (not in the replay) and when he just instantly remaxes with Roaches. I'm just completely lost in the match up, I watch sc2 alot and try to adapt certain things, but everytime I play PvZ every minute feels like a minute closer to the loss.. I don't wanna have to all-in or cheese all the time. Edit: I see an army, react accordingly, beat it and can't deal with the follow-up comp because I'm still stuck on the old army basicly..
Work on your macro. Switch to a 1 gas opening because you're not using the gas from the 2nd geyser, and it's hurting your build. At 5:30, you only have 1 zealot; a flood of lings could've overrun you easily. Your worker production is sporadic after 8:00, and never gets above 70 workers. Your 3rd and 4th gas are late. Your twilight council is very late so your forge stays fallow for a long time. You never get enough pylons, so are never maxed.
Some timings to work on:
4:00 warpgate research (you started it at 4:40)
9:00 start 3rd base (yours is currently at 11:30)
14:00 start 4th base
14:30 3 attack - 3 defense (you were at 1-1 at that point in the game)
15:00 maxed army
17:00 start 5th base
Of course, most games won't be as straightforward as that one was (no rush 15), so you won't hit those timings if they go for a 2 or 3 base attack of course.
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Okay, thanks for the help, when do I take my second gas then? After I start my Mothership Core?
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EPT
