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On February 19 2015 08:17 Dracover wrote:
Question on PvT.
I'm struggling a lot on the new maps with PvT. Genrally the game for me goes like this.
1. we both expand
2. i get a robo forge and gateways
3. fend off the 9min pressure
4. both players take 3rd
5. 14~15min theres another push and I die.
The reason seems to be, i have 5 stalkers in the main to stop drops because on most of the new maps the distance from 3rd to main is so long.
the fight is usually 160~170 supply vs 190~200. however minus 10 supply for the stalkers that basically can't move. so it's almost unwinnable.
I die even if they are a moving into 3 collosus.
You need storm versus those maxed pushes
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Today I played a match against Zerg and played a build i "tried" to copy from Desrow, i saw it when he coachen a Dia Protss in PvZ.
Well, today i played that build, went nexus first and he opened pool first. However after 10 minutes I was really far behind in eco and dont know what i did wrong...
maybe someone can watch the replay and tell me what my mistakes were?
Replay: http://drop.sc/394058
ty
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On February 19 2015 08:23 Arcanefrost wrote:
You need storm versus those maxed pushes
If you try to tech too fast they SCV pull and hit an earlier timing. Or on the new maps multiprone attacks require a large number of stalkers spread out to defend allbases, it's a lot of gas going into stalkers you end up cutting collosus or upgrades to get storm.
Are there any signs to look for as far as differentiation between them?
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Hello fellow Protoss! I had an extraordinarily frustrating game earlier - had a Terran on the ropes, cornered, down 4 bases to 2, and everything. However, he went into a composition that I have never seen before, but ended up giving him the win because I simply could not kill his army - mass Widow Mine (40+) with a few tanks, hellbats, and BCs. Add in about 6-8 vikings and 3 ravens. I tried everything - colossi, carriers, tempests, mass blink stalker, oracles for revelation, but absolutely nothing I thought of could engage him.
His mines were faster than my capital ships so they'd just run under them, burrow, and kill them, and I couldn't move them away fast enough. I also wasn't able to do any splash to them because he used the hellbats to zone out templar, vikings and BC Yamato to kill colossi, and mass scans with the vikings killed any observers I got out. I asked him how to beat the comp at the end and he was a douche, so I thought I'd ask here.
http://drop.sc/394076
Thanks!
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2 things to remember -
1) widow mines can't kill buildings so cannon up your bases.
2) storm outranges widow mines and you don't have to see them to kill them.
You said you tried everything, but mainly tried a little bit of each while keeping your core zealot, stalker, archon army which wasn't even upgraded. You finally built 8 templars at the end of the game when your bank was already completed depleted.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 19 2015 11:02 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2015 08:23 Arcanefrost wrote:
You need storm versus those maxed pushes If you try to tech too fast they SCV pull and hit an earlier timing. Or on the new maps multiprone attacks require a large number of stalkers spread out to defend allbases, it's a lot of gas going into stalkers you end up cutting collosus or upgrades to get storm. Are there any signs to look for as far as differentiation between them?
You need very good map vision with observers, pylons, scouting zealots/probes, all that stuff. Regular colossus builds only have 3 observers so especially on these new (rather... unfavorable) maps those "alternative" scouting options are crucial.
As for tech choice, I recommend playing the 2/2 charge/blink/mass colossus style that delays the gas on your third. It focuses on producing enough army off ~12 gateways with strong upgrades and constant colossus production. It was originally meant to counter SCV pulls but does fairly well even if there isn't one. You'll have a strong 2/2 timing at least. I don't have a specific VOD for you right now, but I know that CJherO did it in a LOT of PvTs over the past few months.
Make sure to ALWAYS have an observer or some form of scout on their direct path to your base. That way you'll be able to see whether they're bringing their whole army for a frontal assault or splitting it up to drop. If it's their whole army -> bring the stalkers.
As for when terrans pull SCVs, let others tell you that. I've tried to figure it out but it seems to me that they just do it whenever they feel like it. Obvious signs are double starport and an early ghost academy instead of additional barracks after their third base I believe.
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Fast question:
in PvT i'm have some problems with new maps, like the guy above.
I have the mid game, but as I move out my base, terran does 2-3 medivac drop and win the game. I usually have 3-4 bases, a better army than him, but he just wins this way, sniping nexus and army production structures.
If I go back, he just outmacro/outproduce me, while base trade is impossible to win.
So my question is: what should I do to defend my expansions after 14-15 mins, when I leave for the final assault?
How many zealots? stalkers? archons? lots of cannons? I usually avoid using ht in late game for defense purpose, storms can hurt my probes when terran engage in my mineral line, and usually my attention is on the frontline, so I don't see incoming drops and don't manage to feedback.
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On February 19 2015 20:07 Icekin wrote:
Fast question:
in PvT i'm have some problems with new maps, like the guy above.
I have the mid game, but as I move out my base, terran does 2-3 medivac drop and win the game. I usually have 3-4 bases, a better army than him, but he just wins this way, sniping nexus and army production structures.
If I go back, he just outmacro/outproduce me, while base trade is impossible to win.
So my question is: what should I do to defend my expansions after 14-15 mins, when I leave for the final assault?
How many zealots? stalkers? archons? lots of cannons? I usually avoid using ht in late game for defense purpose, storms can hurt my probes when terran engage in my mineral line, and usually my attention is on the frontline, so I don't see incoming drops and don't manage to feedback.
Honestly I just veto out expedition lost, secret spring and inferno pools. They're horrible for protoss macro games imo
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On February 19 2015 18:12 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You need very good map vision with observers, pylons, scouting zealots/probes, all that stuff. Regular colossus builds only have 3 observers so especially on these new (rather... unfavorable) maps those "alternative" scouting options are crucial.
As for tech choice, I recommend playing the 2/2 charge/blink/mass colossus style that delays the gas on your third. It focuses on producing enough army off ~12 gateways with strong upgrades and constant colossus production. It was originally meant to counter SCV pulls but does fairly well even if there isn't one. You'll have a strong 2/2 timing at least. I don't have a specific VOD for you right now, but I know that CJherO did it in a LOT of PvTs over the past few months.
Make sure to ALWAYS have an observer or some form of scout on their direct path to your base. That way you'll be able to see whether they're bringing their whole army for a frontal assault or splitting it up to drop. If it's their whole army -> bring the stalkers.
As for when terrans pull SCVs, let others tell you that. I've tried to figure it out but it seems to me that they just do it whenever they feel like it. Obvious signs are double starport and an early ghost academy instead of additional barracks after their third base I believe.
Thanks. What about afterthat point? i.e. assume you make it to 16-17min and you survive the max out push / multiprone attacks. At this point do you just have to attack withyour 2/2? or do you try tech to storm?
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On February 19 2015 10:01 StereoPhonic wrote:Today I played a match against Zerg and played a build i "tried" to copy from Desrow, i saw it when he coachen a Dia Protss in PvZ. Well, today i played that build, went nexus first and he opened pool first. However after 10 minutes I was really far behind in eco and dont know what i did wrong... maybe someone can watch the replay and tell me what my mistakes were? Replay: http://drop.sc/394058ty
Zerg here. Only looked at GGTrackerGGTracker
He got his 3rd up since 5:48, of course he will have more income, but that is kind of standard. 3rd base at 10 min isnt too bad either. If you look at total ressources gathered, there isn't a huge difference.
One thing to improve, you have more than 600 minerals at minute 8, 8:40 and even more than 1000 at minute 10, without any fights going on.
Ressources lost in combat however are really bad. Looks like the attack on the 4th went horribly wrong. If he has an army that much bigger than yours, WITH vipers, don't attack. So, scout with hallucinations before attacking. Or attack, but don't loose the MSC and recall, but that is not easy though.
Just get the third up and running, go up to 5+ colossi and then a-move win, like every toss 
Imagine the last fight, with 6 colossi, instead of 4, also if you had these sentries full of energy. Forcefields can be huge vs Zerg.
Hope that doesn't help (I am still Zerg!)
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On February 19 2015 23:19 Arcanefrost wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2015 20:07 Icekin wrote:
Fast question:
in PvT i'm have some problems with new maps, like the guy above.
I have the mid game, but as I move out my base, terran does 2-3 medivac drop and win the game. I usually have 3-4 bases, a better army than him, but he just wins this way, sniping nexus and army production structures.
If I go back, he just outmacro/outproduce me, while base trade is impossible to win.
So my question is: what should I do to defend my expansions after 14-15 mins, when I leave for the final assault?
How many zealots? stalkers? archons? lots of cannons? I usually avoid using ht in late game for defense purpose, storms can hurt my probes when terran engage in my mineral line, and usually my attention is on the frontline, so I don't see incoming drops and don't manage to feedback. Honestly I just veto out expedition lost, secret spring and inferno pools. They're horrible for protossido macro games imo
Secret spring is pretty good. You can either play very aggressive with blink or very passive and abuse the choke(s) to defend easily from any attack.
Expedition lost is not bad either. Against terran, reaper is extremely weak, you can even go safely nexus first by walling off your natural. Plus you can abuse backdoor rocks (other races don't have forcefields I.e. they are a bigger disadvantage for them).
I agree about inferno pools though. The only fancy thing you can try against zerg is to take the island with a warp prism. But it's a terrible map overall and my only veto for this season.
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Austria24422 Posts
On February 20 2015 07:44 Dracover wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2015 18:12 DarkLordOlli wrote:
You need very good map vision with observers, pylons, scouting zealots/probes, all that stuff. Regular colossus builds only have 3 observers so especially on these new (rather... unfavorable) maps those "alternative" scouting options are crucial.
As for tech choice, I recommend playing the 2/2 charge/blink/mass colossus style that delays the gas on your third. It focuses on producing enough army off ~12 gateways with strong upgrades and constant colossus production. It was originally meant to counter SCV pulls but does fairly well even if there isn't one. You'll have a strong 2/2 timing at least. I don't have a specific VOD for you right now, but I know that CJherO did it in a LOT of PvTs over the past few months.
Make sure to ALWAYS have an observer or some form of scout on their direct path to your base. That way you'll be able to see whether they're bringing their whole army for a frontal assault or splitting it up to drop. If it's their whole army -> bring the stalkers.
As for when terrans pull SCVs, let others tell you that. I've tried to figure it out but it seems to me that they just do it whenever they feel like it. Obvious signs are double starport and an early ghost academy instead of additional barracks after their third base I believe. Thanks. What about afterthat point? i.e. assume you make it to 16-17min and you survive the max out push / multiprone attacks. At this point do you just have to attack withyour 2/2? or do you try tech to storm?
Personally I try to hit the 2/2 timing. It works well whenever I try it, with mass gateway production (charge and blink), one whole set of upgrades ahead, as well as 1-2 archons mixed in. As long as you target vikings well, they should all die before killing the colossi. The timing window isn't very big though and if you forget to chronoboost into your forges it can all go awry rather fast - they might have ghosts ready and even have 2/2 complete if you wait too long. If that happens you'll most likely lose.
You can tech to storm as well, but won't really have the ability to pressure the terran since he'll have ghosts out before your templar. If anything, they'll start attacking you once their 2/2 finishes. So something like a prism in their main and/or zealots at one of their expansions might be a good idea to buy time until you have a good number of templar with energy, preferably spread out to avoid EMPs. You'll just have to stay defensive for a while and delay 3/3 a bit so that you're not spending gas too greedily. That means terran can start their 3/3 ahead of yours and you won't have a 3/3 timing.
So you can transition out of this, it just puts you a little behind because you're delaying your tech.
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On February 20 2015 19:20 KingAlphard wrote:
Secret spring is pretty good. You can either play very aggressive with blink or very passive and abuse the choke(s) to defend easily from any attack.
Expedition lost is not bad either. Against terran, reaper is extremely weak, you can even go safely nexus first by walling off your natural. Plus you can abuse backdoor rocks (other races don't have forcefields I.e. they are a bigger disadvantage for them).
I agree about inferno pools though. The only fancy thing you can try against zerg is to take the island with a warp prism. But it's a terrible map overall and my only veto for this season.
I think the third is just too far away to defend terran drops comfortably. Versus zerg I feel like they can abuse the open space between third and nat too well and just deny it with roach ling (hydra)
Expedition lost is the best of the lot, but I still don't particularly like it :p
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what is the optimal response vs a terran who mine drops?
seems every terran i play these days goes rax /reaper into expo into a factory and starport for a mine drop.
seems stupid because they are economically not behind, and yet you can't pressure since the mines kill all units in 1 shot except msc.
I feel forced into fast robo which on half the maps these days is worthless since you can never take a third.
any ideas?
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United States7483 Posts
On February 21 2015 07:46 Allred wrote:
what is the optimal response vs a terran who mine drops?
seems every terran i play these days goes rax /reaper into expo into a factory and starport for a mine drop.
seems stupid because they are economically not behind, and yet you can't pressure since the mines kill all units in 1 shot except msc.
I feel forced into fast robo which on half the maps these days is worthless since you can never take a third.
any ideas?
Rain pioneered cannons in the mineral lines early on as a defense against just this.
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On February 21 2015 07:46 Allred wrote:
what is the optimal response vs a terran who mine drops?
seems every terran i play these days goes rax /reaper into expo into a factory and starport for a mine drop.
seems stupid because they are economically not behind, and yet you can't pressure since the mines kill all units in 1 shot except msc.
I feel forced into fast robo which on half the maps these days is worthless since you can never take a third.
any ideas?
Don't know what r u even talking about. Fast robo counters this and u get 3rd even quicker.
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On February 21 2015 19:41 insitelol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 21 2015 07:46 Allred wrote:
what is the optimal response vs a terran who mine drops?
seems every terran i play these days goes rax /reaper into expo into a factory and starport for a mine drop.
seems stupid because they are economically not behind, and yet you can't pressure since the mines kill all units in 1 shot except msc.
I feel forced into fast robo which on half the maps these days is worthless since you can never take a third.
any ideas? Don't know what r u even talking about. Fast robo counters this and u get 3rd even quicker.
It isn't easy to hold, as it often is a multipronged attack with either rines or hellions. Ideally you spot the drop and deny it with some stalkers, after which you can indeed just take a fast third and go towards collosus and blink
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On February 21 2015 07:46 Allred wrote:
what is the optimal response vs a terran who mine drops?
seems every terran i play these days goes rax /reaper into expo into a factory and starport for a mine drop.
seems stupid because they are economically not behind, and yet you can't pressure since the mines kill all units in 1 shot except msc.
I feel forced into fast robo which on half the maps these days is worthless since you can never take a third.
any ideas?
You can hold any variation of factory openings after repear with 2 gate blink with a robo around 6:35~~ (wich is imo one of the best build in the current metagame) The first obs should pop when the drop is coming and you should be able to get 5 stalker out really quickly (3 stalker from the first gate then warpin 2 stalkers). After that dropping a collossus bay and having a decent stalker force in both mineral line you can immediatly get a third base and be in a pretty good position. Make sure to have pylones to spot the drop coming so you have time to move your stalkers.
On a side note, I really like Robo/forge opening on vanii and secret spring, the free B2 with a small ramp makes any kind of marine/marauder push really weak (usually the weakness of the early forge). You will not be able to get canon exactly in time for the first drop, but you can have them for the second or third medivacs and be really safe to do whatever you want ( These days Terrans love to harass constently with several medivacs instead of just one)
And yeah you're never gonna be able to punish a terran that does mine drop unless with a VERY specific build (cf : Parting vs Maru ). But taking an "early" third pretty much makes you win the game if you didn't take too much damages.
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From the point building a new nexus, when will the investment fully paid back?
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EPT
