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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. Do not just ask for build orders. | ||
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Daniel12
Israel29 Posts
Since HoTS comes out, i just can't figure out PvT, I'm trying to use solid macro PvT ( i'm the protoss ) and its just soo hard with the boost to the medivacs, i just can't handle with drops, anyone have suggestions to solid build that can solve the problems with the medivacs? | ||
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Deckard.666
152 Posts
On March 24 2013 23:42 Daniel12 wrote: Hello guys, Since HoTS comes out, i just can't figure out PvT, I'm trying to use solid macro PvT ( i'm the protoss ) and its just soo hard with the boost to the medivacs, i just can't handle with drops, anyone have suggestions to solid build that can solve the problems with the medivacs? [G] MC's PvT Stargate--> Really cool build from MC that allows you to harass, control drops and dictate the pace of the game. MC played it as a 2 base all in in most games (in the recent MLG), but you can easily add double forge and a third and play it out in a macro way. I really recommend you to check it out. | ||
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On March 24 2013 21:25 etherealfall wrote: With the myriad of openings I've been facing on Diamond on KR in PvT, whats the general consensus regarding tech choice? Is stargate simply better because of map control from 6-11/12minutes? Can you still get away with 1 gate expo into stargate and still have AoE for the mid game push with medivacs? What's the down side of robo opening into phoenixes for air zoning? Been having an abysmal run with PvT  Generally speaking, it just feels like gas openings are all the rage now and I've always been a robo-centric player so having to adapt with stargate has seen my WR plummet D:PvT is my best matchup right now. I win almost every game of it and despite almost never getting a stargate, I've been shutting down drops hard and winning in this MU.. In response to your question of "can you 1gate expo into stargate and still deal with the mid game push", I'm thinking "probably not" if they're doing a 1-base all in, but if they expand,, then you probably can. Personally, I don't feel comfortable opening stargate very often in T, and I've been finding that I can get by without it. Shutting down drops isn't as easy without a stargate,, but you can make up for this with map awareness and unit control. I've started just assuming that virtually all Terran will use drops. Basically, when we ignore stargate tech, we have to realize that the drop is a threat. So, you need to be ready for it every single PvT since if you don't open stargate, you KNOW that's your weakness. you're sacrifcing a stargate in favour of a bigger and stronger ground army. When you know your own weaknesses, and better yet, when you get to choose your own weakness, you can focus hard on countering that and if you succeed well, you will win the game. What I usually do is get out 2 fast observers as soon as my robo is finished, send one to their base and use one to look for drops at your base's flank. You also want to send a probe out in the mid game to build scout pylons at common drop routes. You're going to need one of your observers to kill the widow mines that get dropped in your mineral line, I usually just use the one that scouts the drop coming at my base's flank. When I'm not moving out, I almost always leave a few units at the edges of my main. You need to scout the front and be ready to bring these units back if he attacks you. The biggest threat that I've seen is the two pronged drop, where medivacs come in simultaneously from two directions and divert your attention. Just stay calm and split your forces into two. In the mid/late game I start adding cannons per expo. Blindly cannoning all my bases obviously isn't ideal, but I've found that adding cannons as the game goes on helps prevent widow mine/drop foolery and buy you a lot of time to defend your bases. Don't forget to use your MSC to recall/photon overcharge. Base choice is a big deal late game for stopping drops, too. The general formula I've found that works best is that you want to expand somewhere that you can get to equal distance by ground and air. You don't want to expand somewhere that's close by air and far by land, because that favours the drop. One map in particular I think of is Neo. Against Zerg it seems a lot easier to hold the close air base near your main, but against Terran I like to take the base vertically aligned with your main/nat because there's no drop threat to it. In summary, I think you should give your robo-play another shot, and just really focus on stopping drops. If you switch to stargate play, you're spending a lot of resources on something that's not all that great against Terran's main army. In a way, if you blindly build a stargate vs. every Terran, you're already letting them win with the build order damage they do to you, since you really want to be getting out collosus, and later TC/templar tech. Just my thoughts. Feel free to tell me if you think I'm wrong or if there's a better way to go about this MU. | ||
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probeater
124 Posts
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Zystra
United Kingdom79 Posts
Also, on another note, Swarm Hosts seem very easy to use. They just burrow in a spot and then get free units all game. Can someone with experience of using Swarm Hosts tell me if they are as easy to use as they look? ps. Im not having a pop at people who use SH with this questions, I just wanna know. Thanks for any help. | ||
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Rohan
United Kingdom83 Posts
So I've been doing a 2 gate, 2 stargate all-in off of one base. Literally, Void Ray/Zealot. Not come up against anyone who's gone Pheonix yet (since I'm guessing that's the natural counter? Possibly cannons would be nice too) Anyone got any input in how to stop it? My micro is less than perfect this game in general, was chatting to my girlfriend in between times. Been winning a lot with it though, don't think anyone's stoppped it yet since I switched the MSC in and delayed my stargate. Comments? Thoughts? Rep: http://drop.sc/313126 ETA: I can probably improve the build by not adding in so many Oracles. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
Long story short: not a very good idea. If you want to stargate allin learn a good phoenix 4gate. | ||
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rpgalon
Brazil1069 Posts
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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LuckyMacro
United States1482 Posts
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SteveNick
United States304 Posts
On March 25 2013 04:30 rpgalon wrote: Has anyone here tried to defend oracle/phoenix harass with templar's feedback? can it work? The feedback probably won't kill the target in most situations but without energy the unit won't be able to harass. You might not have enough feedbacks to take out their entire harassing force if it's this late in the game. I think the biggest problem you will run into, depending on your level of play, is that both phoenixes and oracles would be great at just running in and sniping the HT if your attention is divided for a moment. For this reason, along with the heavy cost of a templar, might be enough reason to not rely on the tactic. If he's committing a lot of resources to harassing units like this, you might be better off just laying some cannons which will permanently shut down phoenixes and be cost effective at defending versus oracles. | ||
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Atlas247
Canada318 Posts
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etherealfall
Australia476 Posts
On March 25 2013 00:11 SteveNick wrote: PvT is my best matchup right now. I win almost every game of it and despite almost never getting a stargate, I've been shutting down drops hard and winning in this MU.. In response to your question of "can you 1gate expo into stargate and still deal with the mid game push", I'm thinking "probably not" if they're doing a 1-base all in, but if they expand,, then you probably can. Personally, I don't feel comfortable opening stargate very often in T, and I've been finding that I can get by without it. Shutting down drops isn't as easy without a stargate,, but you can make up for this with map awareness and unit control. I've started just assuming that virtually all Terran will use drops. Basically, when we ignore stargate tech, we have to realize that the drop is a threat. So, you need to be ready for it every single PvT since if you don't open stargate, you KNOW that's your weakness. you're sacrifcing a stargate in favour of a bigger and stronger ground army. When you know your own weaknesses, and better yet, when you get to choose your own weakness, you can focus hard on countering that and if you succeed well, you will win the game. What I usually do is get out 2 fast observers as soon as my robo is finished, send one to their base and use one to look for drops at your base's flank. You also want to send a probe out in the mid game to build scout pylons at common drop routes. You're going to need one of your observers to kill the widow mines that get dropped in your mineral line, I usually just use the one that scouts the drop coming at my base's flank. When I'm not moving out, I almost always leave a few units at the edges of my main. You need to scout the front and be ready to bring these units back if he attacks you. The biggest threat that I've seen is the two pronged drop, where medivacs come in simultaneously from two directions and divert your attention. Just stay calm and split your forces into two. In the mid/late game I start adding cannons per expo. Blindly cannoning all my bases obviously isn't ideal, but I've found that adding cannons as the game goes on helps prevent widow mine/drop foolery and buy you a lot of time to defend your bases. Don't forget to use your MSC to recall/photon overcharge. Base choice is a big deal late game for stopping drops, too. The general formula I've found that works best is that you want to expand somewhere that you can get to equal distance by ground and air. You don't want to expand somewhere that's close by air and far by land, because that favours the drop. One map in particular I think of is Neo. Against Zerg it seems a lot easier to hold the close air base near your main, but against Terran I like to take the base vertically aligned with your main/nat because there's no drop threat to it. In summary, I think you should give your robo-play another shot, and just really focus on stopping drops. If you switch to stargate play, you're spending a lot of resources on something that's not all that great against Terran's main army. In a way, if you blindly build a stargate vs. every Terran, you're already letting them win with the build order damage they do to you, since you really want to be getting out collosus, and later TC/templar tech. Just my thoughts. Feel free to tell me if you think I'm wrong or if there's a better way to go about this MU. Thanks. I'll try robo again. My actual aversion to robo isn't from personal preference (had good success during the beta) but to the quote from MC saying how he's the only P playing HOTS while all the other P's are playing WOL (in reference to why he's having so much success in the match up) | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
On March 24 2013 18:17 OSL0rd wrote: Well said. I'm not really inclined to FFE as I cant seem to find any solid build orders on Stargate after FFE. Is there any you or some other person can link it to me? Out of interest, what type of problems do you have expanding off of 1 gate? I have been trying it a fair bit, and the only times I have lost is when I messed up my wall (a lot of the maps are new to me). I find that after the two zealot, msc and stalker attack, you can start a nexus and another stalker, then make a wall with 2 gates and a forge. A single stalker in the choke point seems to hold the ling counter until you can produce more (or bring home your attacking units). The reason I ask is that I have no had anyone counter with fast banes or roaches and am wondering how the 1 gate expand into 3 gate forge will hold against this. | ||
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Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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probeater
124 Posts
------------------ i am currently following the Hero Phoenix PvZ build from the ultimate guide, and i was wondering what are the changes i should make to the build to adapt to zerg in hots where they get hydras , swarmhosts, etc.? | ||
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rsvp
United States2266 Posts
On March 25 2013 09:06 probeater wrote: sorry for reposting the same question, but it wasnt answered :/ ------------------ i am currently following the Hero Phoenix PvZ build from the ultimate guide, and i was wondering what are the changes i should make to the build to adapt to zerg in hots where they get hydras , swarmhosts, etc.? Just make colossus when you scout hydras or swarmhosts. It shouldn't be difficult considering you have early air units for scouting and the build gets a fairly early robo too. Personally I would even get a 2nd robo. | ||
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tEEYOUNEE
Canada13 Posts
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recklessfire
United States373 Posts
On March 25 2013 12:10 tEEYOUNEE wrote: What is the general timing to push out in PvP? It seems I always let the game go to long and end up barely winning. thats a really really broad question. PvP is early game, you need know the basic rock paper scissor tech choices. Generally speaking, stargate>robo>twilight>stargate>robo>twilight, and so forth. So for example, you open stargate and go into phoenix production, and when you go to harass, you scout he has gona robo and has even gotten an immortal out, and no other tech. With four phoenixes and 3-4 gates(depends on how bad you want this guy dead) you can do a very strong push up his ramp, using your phoenixes and gateway support, (dont wait so long he gets to finish any other tech, your first push should be 4+ phoenixes with maybe around 8-10 gateway units) to eliminate any sentries to prevent FF spam and to temporarily negate the immortal(s). Now with the new msc, he can most likely buy some time before you commit to the push or get you to back off, and you just simply wait it out and go for the finisher or expand behind it. theres other timings with each tech choice depending on what and when you scout, and then theres all these timings and so forth if the game continues into mid/late game, so like I said, really really broad question. | ||
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JSK
United States133 Posts
General game plan and flow: 1 Gate Stargate Expand (Zealot/Stalker/Zealot/MSC if z=gas first) (Zealot/Stalker/Stalker/MSC if z=gasless expand) Stargate Nexus Void Ray, chronoboost twice (upon completion begin perpetual phoenix production) Add 2 Gateways At this point your MSC should confirm the presence of a third hatchery: (our opponent will usually plant his 3rd once our natural goes down, but in case he went for a 3 hatch build anyway you should just 4-gate MSC him) (if there is no 3rd hatch, and especially if your opponent opened speedling expand, prepare for a 2-base all-in, probably weighted towards a baneling bust as you have few units or cannons. Build sentries, void rays, zealots, and sim city to hold the push. Continue to scout with a phoenix to confirm tech choice and maintain map awareness) If a 3rd, attack it with your 2 zealots, 1 stalker, msc, voidray, 1-2 phoenix, and the probe you will bring for two forward pylons (in separate locations) which you will use to reinforce this push. Focus spore crawlers and queens first with all units; it does not matter if you lose everything except the voidray, as long as you are able to focus down the hatchery. If you succeed in bringing down the hatchery you won’t necessarily be ahead because you will likely have paid for it with many of your own units. Still, this means that zerg is not up a base on us and he has to re-plant the hatch, which he certainly will do, probably immediately. When he does this you should take a third of your own, and proceed from there. Before doing so you must begin to tech to high Templar in order to defend it, while using your void ray to prevent a fourth base from zerg, and your phoenixes (that you have been producing non-stop) to protect the void ray, scout, and maintain map awareness. This is what the infrastructure looks like: 2-Gas 1-Gate MSC/Stargate Expand Nexus *chronoboost voidray (x2) *begin non-stop phoenix production +2 Gates +Twilight Council attack Expand Gate Gate Gate Forge x2 (upon completion begin non-stop shields and air attack upgrades. Get +1 ground attack for zealots only when you can afford it) Templar Archives Dark Shrine (your HT may not necessarily come out in time to defend a counterpush, but the earlier he pushes the less overseers he will be able to afford, and you can use phoenixes to kill them on his first push and defend with dark-templar as a one-time get out of jail free card. In the future as he is able to bring multiple overseers this will be much less reliable but you will have high Templar with storm ready.) Robotics Facility *suspend phoenix production in order to pay for fleet beacon and anion-pulse crystals, as well as +2 air attack. *resume phoenix production once the above has been paid for At this point you need to evaluate what the zerg is doing. If you’ve successfully kept him on 3 bases (and when he takes one you should as well) he will most likely try to end the game, so what we need to do is think: Our unit composition will successfully defend large, 3-base pushes consisting heavily of roaches, hydralisks, mutalisks, or infestors. What we are most worried about would likely be some kind of swarm host push, or even some kind of strange 3-base ultralisk attack. (you have a robotics facility in order to a) warp prism harass b) adapt to these pushes if necessary) You should be constantly aware of what he is doing precisely because you have phoenix. If he has successfully taken a fourth (extremely likely, you can’t keep him from expanding for long with just a void ray) then you should as well, but you must take it at the same time so that you can cancel it if he chooses to attack instead of droning his own fourth, or probe your own fourth at the same time he is droning his, to keep in step) That’s basically how it goes, except for some important specifics I feel are very important: Reasons for constant building of phoenix: 1) reduction of zerg macro mechanic (killing queens, even trading for them, forcing spores, killing overlords all greatly reduces the amount of units zerg can flood you with. ) ***especially because mass-expand or mass speedling runbys are common responses to heavy phoenix play*** (but both are significantly weakened if you constantly trade phoenix for queens. +1 air attack is mainly to kill queens quickly enough to escape from spore crawlers without taking significant damage, and to kill offensive overseers quickly enough to avoid losing phoenix, in order to defend with DTs) Cooldown on inject larvae is 40 seconds while queen build time is 50, meaning you will reduce larvae production by 20% at the least, assuming he has one queen per base- if he makes more, that's great, because we'll have more queens to kill (but we likely won't be able to reduce his larvae production by as high of a percentage) if he builds so many spore crawlers that this simply isn’t possible then you must adjust accordingly, but of course this hurts him greatly and helps us pay for our phoenix. 2) map awareness and reliable scouting, control of watch towers 3) prevention of mutalisk-based strategies, which I personally despise 4) increased effectiveness of warp prism harass due to zerg lack of overlords out on the map and control of watch tower (increased spore crawlers can hurt this strategy but it evens out because more spores means less spines available to stop zealot warp ins, and you can always set the warp prism up outside the base and then run in if absolutely necessary) 5) increased effectiveness of dark Templar defense, which itself is partially offset by the zerg’s need to build multiple overseers to bring with pushes) . this means we can more effectively expand whenever the zerg expands as long as we monitor the number of overseers and units that can defend them) 6) once phoenix reach critical mass and a certain level of air attack upgrades they become extremely effective at killing everything besides hydralisks (actually they’re not too bad at that) ultras, and corruptors . 7) encouraging production of hydralisks (terrible against chargelot/HT), corruptors (cannot catch phoenix or damage ground) and swarmhost (an infestation pit certainly means swarmhosts against this strategy as infestors are horrible against phoenix/ht/chargelot) . you have a robotics facility, and if you scout an infestation pit and have reasonable suspicion of swarm hosts in significant number (for example if playing against a 3-base swarmhost push, you should immediately add a robotics bay and a second robo facility and begin double-colossus production. Be careful of corruptor numbers- pay attention to the number of swarm hosts as an indicator for his level of commitment.) *constantly build phoenix, halt production after third nexus in order to pay for fleet beacon, range, and +2 attack Reasons for constant shield upgrades: 1) we don’t have the gas to be getting more than 2 upgrades at a time and shields affect all protoss units 2) shields greatly increases the effectiveness of phoenix harass and ability to trade for queens at the point in the game where there will be multiple spore crawlers per base Warp Prism harass: You should have multiple warp prisms on the map at a time, preferable three or more. Corruptors cannot catch phoenix but they can catch warp prisms, and you will lose some to them. Aim to have 3 on the map at any given time and replace them as needed. Use warp prism harass until you are confident that you push mass chargelot/HT with phoenix support to victory. This build, unless required to do so by extenuating circumstances, will only produce 1 stalker, 1 void ray, and 1 sentry throughout the game. You will be using charge zealots, phoenix, high Templar, dark Templar, archons, and warp prisms throughout the entire game. I will add replays as I continue to develop the style. I do encourage other protoss to try it out as I believe the Phoenix to be the most underrated unit in the game, especially once you reach a critical mass of them with +2 or +3 air attack and can use gravitron beam en-masse. A lategame army of phoenix/chargelot/high Templar/warp prism is extremely versatile, powerful, and effective against most zerg compositions. We mostly need to be afraid of ultralisks. If you see an ultra den (and you will because one major reason for getting phoenix is constant scouting) you should add stargates and get void rays. | ||
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