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United States250 Posts
On March 22 2013 12:19 tEEYOUNEE wrote:
How do I stop supply block as Potoss? I used to play Terran so I followed the rule one supply depot constantly building for each Command Center I have. I tried to follow this as P but with 7 gates and collosus on two base it gets capped quickly.
I'm only a Diamond Protoss, but for me, I can never build *just* one pylon at a time (except the early game, first ~5 minutes). After that, I usually build my pylons two or three at a time. Never dependent on how many nexus' I have. I know that's probably not much help, but it works for me. Just build several at once if you think you'll get capped in the next 30 seconds or so.
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On March 22 2013 09:28 FreedomMurder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 09:14 Absentia wrote:
What builds should I be doing in PvT and PvZ? I really struggle in PvZ, particularly when I try to open anything but forge/gate/cyber/robo/gates and go for colossus.
PvT I find easier but I don't feel like my build is particularly efficient. I normally open colossus double forge but I don't work by a strict build order so things are always a little off.
Is it worth getting a mothership core early on in PvT? It seems like gas is being wasted when it could be spent getting quicker upgrades and tech.
~ Mid masters In my opinion getting an msc early in PvT is great... I open stalker, msc, warpgate, then another stalker. using my first 2 chrono on probes and the rest on stalkers and the msc. You can deny the terran getting a low ground bunker, and stalkers with time warp eat marines. I normally do a lot of damage and get a perfect scout on what terran is doing. I'll copy and paste my PvZ build from a few pages earlier. It requires a lot of micro and multitasking but it is fun and rewarding to execute well. You essentially 3 stalker rush to force zerg to make units instead of drones. Go home when you see they have made a lot of zerglings or you think speed could be finishing soon. Use DT harass to bide time while you tech to storm, chargelots, and getting armour upgrades to make your zealots last. Once you have storm and 4 or so HT take your 3rd and throw down double stargate for voidrays. This build absolutely destroys muta (storm to bide time and pheonix are great in hots)and hydra play and does fairly well against swarm host if you scout it early and grab a robo for obs. I've got a great PvZ build if anyone is interested. 9 - Pylon (low ground at natural) 12 - Gate 14 - Gas 16 - Cyber Core, 2nd Gateway, Pylon Save your chrono after using first 2 on probes. Chrono out 3 stalkers (Use scouting probe to keep an eye on zerg gas timings so you know when to go home). Harass the zerg with the 3 stalkers picking off zerglings, overlords, queens, drones while forcing a huge overreaction from the zerg. At home throw down a twilight council, then a nexus, then a sentry, mothership core and finally a forge while keeping up probe production as much as possible. When you poke and see 10+ lings with your stalkers its time to go home(or if you are good enough to remember when they would have speed by from your scouting of the gas timing). Throw down DT shrine and plus 1 armour. Transition into charge, storm, and plus 2 armour. Take your 3rd as storm finishes or when you have 4+ templar with storm. Throw down 2 stargates and a robo(for observers and warp prisms only). Start double void ray production, +1 air and +1 shields. Use excess minerals on plenty of cannons, extra gateways, and zealot harass. If you forced a huge reaction from the zerg and don't feel like taking it into the late game you can simply do a blink stalker all in (With +1 since you didn't open forge the plus 2 timing is usually far too late, I normally started +2 but hit before it completed) This was my build in WoL and I had an 85% win rate at the masters level. I'm 17-1 at masters level in Hots with this build. It is definitely a great ladder build, but your opponent will learn how to deal with the original pressure better and better over time so probably not much use in tournies except a 1 time thing. Hopefully someone actually reads/tries this build!
Can you post some replays of the PvZ build you described? It looks quite interesting and I'd want to see it in action.
As for the supply block question, I just monitor my supply count a lot and build pylons in numbers as described above. The supply will fill up quickly as you start warping in and you really need to often just have a lot of extra supply.
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On March 22 2013 16:26 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 09:28 FreedomMurder wrote:On March 22 2013 09:14 Absentia wrote:
What builds should I be doing in PvT and PvZ? I really struggle in PvZ, particularly when I try to open anything but forge/gate/cyber/robo/gates and go for colossus.
PvT I find easier but I don't feel like my build is particularly efficient. I normally open colossus double forge but I don't work by a strict build order so things are always a little off.
Is it worth getting a mothership core early on in PvT? It seems like gas is being wasted when it could be spent getting quicker upgrades and tech.
~ Mid masters In my opinion getting an msc early in PvT is great... I open stalker, msc, warpgate, then another stalker. using my first 2 chrono on probes and the rest on stalkers and the msc. You can deny the terran getting a low ground bunker, and stalkers with time warp eat marines. I normally do a lot of damage and get a perfect scout on what terran is doing. I'll copy and paste my PvZ build from a few pages earlier. It requires a lot of micro and multitasking but it is fun and rewarding to execute well. You essentially 3 stalker rush to force zerg to make units instead of drones. Go home when you see they have made a lot of zerglings or you think speed could be finishing soon. Use DT harass to bide time while you tech to storm, chargelots, and getting armour upgrades to make your zealots last. Once you have storm and 4 or so HT take your 3rd and throw down double stargate for voidrays. This build absolutely destroys muta (storm to bide time and pheonix are great in hots)and hydra play and does fairly well against swarm host if you scout it early and grab a robo for obs. I've got a great PvZ build if anyone is interested. 9 - Pylon (low ground at natural) 12 - Gate 14 - Gas 16 - Cyber Core, 2nd Gateway, Pylon Save your chrono after using first 2 on probes. Chrono out 3 stalkers (Use scouting probe to keep an eye on zerg gas timings so you know when to go home). Harass the zerg with the 3 stalkers picking off zerglings, overlords, queens, drones while forcing a huge overreaction from the zerg. At home throw down a twilight council, then a nexus, then a sentry, mothership core and finally a forge while keeping up probe production as much as possible. When you poke and see 10+ lings with your stalkers its time to go home(or if you are good enough to remember when they would have speed by from your scouting of the gas timing). Throw down DT shrine and plus 1 armour. Transition into charge, storm, and plus 2 armour. Take your 3rd as storm finishes or when you have 4+ templar with storm. Throw down 2 stargates and a robo(for observers and warp prisms only). Start double void ray production, +1 air and +1 shields. Use excess minerals on plenty of cannons, extra gateways, and zealot harass. If you forced a huge reaction from the zerg and don't feel like taking it into the late game you can simply do a blink stalker all in (With +1 since you didn't open forge the plus 2 timing is usually far too late, I normally started +2 but hit before it completed) This was my build in WoL and I had an 85% win rate at the masters level. I'm 17-1 at masters level in Hots with this build. It is definitely a great ladder build, but your opponent will learn how to deal with the original pressure better and better over time so probably not much use in tournies except a 1 time thing. Hopefully someone actually reads/tries this build! Can you post some replays of the PvZ build you described? It looks quite interesting and I'd want to see it in action. As for the supply block question, I just monitor my supply count a lot and build pylons in numbers as described above. The supply will fill up quickly as you start warping in and you really need to often just have a lot of extra supply.
Sure I can probably dig up some replays for you. I've never posted a replay to team liquid before would you like to explain to me how I would go about doing so? I'll try to find me playing this build against a few different zerg styles because there are a lot of decisions you have to make. (You can 4gate vs. fast 3 hatch, how to handle early pools, roach or baneling aggression, mutas, swarm host)
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On March 23 2013 01:26 FreedomMurder wrote:Show nested quote +On March 22 2013 16:26 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On March 22 2013 09:28 FreedomMurder wrote:On March 22 2013 09:14 Absentia wrote:
What builds should I be doing in PvT and PvZ? I really struggle in PvZ, particularly when I try to open anything but forge/gate/cyber/robo/gates and go for colossus.
PvT I find easier but I don't feel like my build is particularly efficient. I normally open colossus double forge but I don't work by a strict build order so things are always a little off.
Is it worth getting a mothership core early on in PvT? It seems like gas is being wasted when it could be spent getting quicker upgrades and tech.
~ Mid masters In my opinion getting an msc early in PvT is great... I open stalker, msc, warpgate, then another stalker. using my first 2 chrono on probes and the rest on stalkers and the msc. You can deny the terran getting a low ground bunker, and stalkers with time warp eat marines. I normally do a lot of damage and get a perfect scout on what terran is doing. I'll copy and paste my PvZ build from a few pages earlier. It requires a lot of micro and multitasking but it is fun and rewarding to execute well. You essentially 3 stalker rush to force zerg to make units instead of drones. Go home when you see they have made a lot of zerglings or you think speed could be finishing soon. Use DT harass to bide time while you tech to storm, chargelots, and getting armour upgrades to make your zealots last. Once you have storm and 4 or so HT take your 3rd and throw down double stargate for voidrays. This build absolutely destroys muta (storm to bide time and pheonix are great in hots)and hydra play and does fairly well against swarm host if you scout it early and grab a robo for obs. I've got a great PvZ build if anyone is interested. 9 - Pylon (low ground at natural) 12 - Gate 14 - Gas 16 - Cyber Core, 2nd Gateway, Pylon Save your chrono after using first 2 on probes. Chrono out 3 stalkers (Use scouting probe to keep an eye on zerg gas timings so you know when to go home). Harass the zerg with the 3 stalkers picking off zerglings, overlords, queens, drones while forcing a huge overreaction from the zerg. At home throw down a twilight council, then a nexus, then a sentry, mothership core and finally a forge while keeping up probe production as much as possible. When you poke and see 10+ lings with your stalkers its time to go home(or if you are good enough to remember when they would have speed by from your scouting of the gas timing). Throw down DT shrine and plus 1 armour. Transition into charge, storm, and plus 2 armour. Take your 3rd as storm finishes or when you have 4+ templar with storm. Throw down 2 stargates and a robo(for observers and warp prisms only). Start double void ray production, +1 air and +1 shields. Use excess minerals on plenty of cannons, extra gateways, and zealot harass. If you forced a huge reaction from the zerg and don't feel like taking it into the late game you can simply do a blink stalker all in (With +1 since you didn't open forge the plus 2 timing is usually far too late, I normally started +2 but hit before it completed) This was my build in WoL and I had an 85% win rate at the masters level. I'm 17-1 at masters level in Hots with this build. It is definitely a great ladder build, but your opponent will learn how to deal with the original pressure better and better over time so probably not much use in tournies except a 1 time thing. Hopefully someone actually reads/tries this build! Can you post some replays of the PvZ build you described? It looks quite interesting and I'd want to see it in action. As for the supply block question, I just monitor my supply count a lot and build pylons in numbers as described above. The supply will fill up quickly as you start warping in and you really need to often just have a lot of extra supply. Sure I can probably dig up some replays for you. I've never posted a replay to team liquid before would you like to explain to me how I would go about doing so? I'll try to find me playing this build against a few different zerg styles because there are a lot of decisions you have to make. (You can 4gate vs. fast 3 hatch, how to handle early pools, roach or baneling aggression, mutas, swarm host)
Go to http://drop.sc/, upload the replays and link them here on TL.
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On March 23 2013 01:30 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 01:26 FreedomMurder wrote:On March 22 2013 16:26 FLUFFYPenguin wrote:On March 22 2013 09:28 FreedomMurder wrote:On March 22 2013 09:14 Absentia wrote:
What builds should I be doing in PvT and PvZ? I really struggle in PvZ, particularly when I try to open anything but forge/gate/cyber/robo/gates and go for colossus.
PvT I find easier but I don't feel like my build is particularly efficient. I normally open colossus double forge but I don't work by a strict build order so things are always a little off.
Is it worth getting a mothership core early on in PvT? It seems like gas is being wasted when it could be spent getting quicker upgrades and tech.
~ Mid masters In my opinion getting an msc early in PvT is great... I open stalker, msc, warpgate, then another stalker. using my first 2 chrono on probes and the rest on stalkers and the msc. You can deny the terran getting a low ground bunker, and stalkers with time warp eat marines. I normally do a lot of damage and get a perfect scout on what terran is doing. I'll copy and paste my PvZ build from a few pages earlier. It requires a lot of micro and multitasking but it is fun and rewarding to execute well. You essentially 3 stalker rush to force zerg to make units instead of drones. Go home when you see they have made a lot of zerglings or you think speed could be finishing soon. Use DT harass to bide time while you tech to storm, chargelots, and getting armour upgrades to make your zealots last. Once you have storm and 4 or so HT take your 3rd and throw down double stargate for voidrays. This build absolutely destroys muta (storm to bide time and pheonix are great in hots)and hydra play and does fairly well against swarm host if you scout it early and grab a robo for obs. I've got a great PvZ build if anyone is interested. 9 - Pylon (low ground at natural) 12 - Gate 14 - Gas 16 - Cyber Core, 2nd Gateway, Pylon Save your chrono after using first 2 on probes. Chrono out 3 stalkers (Use scouting probe to keep an eye on zerg gas timings so you know when to go home). Harass the zerg with the 3 stalkers picking off zerglings, overlords, queens, drones while forcing a huge overreaction from the zerg. At home throw down a twilight council, then a nexus, then a sentry, mothership core and finally a forge while keeping up probe production as much as possible. When you poke and see 10+ lings with your stalkers its time to go home(or if you are good enough to remember when they would have speed by from your scouting of the gas timing). Throw down DT shrine and plus 1 armour. Transition into charge, storm, and plus 2 armour. Take your 3rd as storm finishes or when you have 4+ templar with storm. Throw down 2 stargates and a robo(for observers and warp prisms only). Start double void ray production, +1 air and +1 shields. Use excess minerals on plenty of cannons, extra gateways, and zealot harass. If you forced a huge reaction from the zerg and don't feel like taking it into the late game you can simply do a blink stalker all in (With +1 since you didn't open forge the plus 2 timing is usually far too late, I normally started +2 but hit before it completed) This was my build in WoL and I had an 85% win rate at the masters level. I'm 17-1 at masters level in Hots with this build. It is definitely a great ladder build, but your opponent will learn how to deal with the original pressure better and better over time so probably not much use in tournies except a 1 time thing. Hopefully someone actually reads/tries this build! Can you post some replays of the PvZ build you described? It looks quite interesting and I'd want to see it in action. As for the supply block question, I just monitor my supply count a lot and build pylons in numbers as described above. The supply will fill up quickly as you start warping in and you really need to often just have a lot of extra supply. Sure I can probably dig up some replays for you. I've never posted a replay to team liquid before would you like to explain to me how I would go about doing so? I'll try to find me playing this build against a few different zerg styles because there are a lot of decisions you have to make. (You can 4gate vs. fast 3 hatch, how to handle early pools, roach or baneling aggression, mutas, swarm host) Go to http://drop.sc/, upload the replays and link them here on TL.
http://drop.sc/312279 - I noticed his 3rd hatch late so i decided to do a 2 base all in variant. Sorry for his racist bm.
http://drop.sc/312281 - I cancelled his 3rd hatch without having to 4gate. I scouted his roaches with my DT harass so i decided to go robo/immortals so i could easily secure my 3rd. Then I just went and killed him with a very deadly composition of immortal void ht with support units.
I can't find one in my recent games of a straight up macro game. Essentially if you don't think you can punish his 3rd just get storm, chargelots, armour upgrades and then void rays after you secure your 3rd.
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I'm having trouble with PvZ....I have been starting with the 2 zealot + MSC build into expand. From there I have been going into stargate with phoenix harass. This usually results in him going hydras, so I go for colossus at that point. But his army is just usually much larger than mine when an encounter occurs and I lose. I have never done the FFE build in PvZ, but that seems to be the standard. So i'm going to give that a go, but I feel as if I will run into the same type situation with my transitions so I was looking for a little more direction. I found these 2 builds which I would like to try and help me in this matchup, but I wasn't sure if they were still effective in HoTS. Anyone able to let me know? Thanks in advance
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/MC's_7_Gate_1_Gas_All-in_(vs._Zerg)
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Mista's_2_Base_Colossus_All-In_(vs._Zerg)
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I just started playing SC2 again and picked up Protoss. I'm playing in platinum league atm and I'm not sure how to use the oracle in mid and late game. I would like to know:
1. Do you use the oracle to attack with your main army or do you just use it for vision and detection?
2. Has anyone tried going mass oracle vs bio builds? I'm very tempted to try mass oracle with armor upgrades vs Terran bio ball.
Right now the only use I've found is early stargate oracle harassment
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Are there any actually solid builds for PvP? From what I've been able to deduce from my own experience so far:
- DT rush > 4gate (due to mothership core and no detection)
- 4gate > Stargate
- Stargate > Robo
- Robo > DT rush.
Are we back to the build order coinflip state of PVP?
Side question: What the hell do you do if both go DT?
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With the high-ground warp-in change, MSC, holding 4-gates should be pretty easy nowadays unless you really, really, skimped on units.
Stargate > All in PvP right now IMO (oracle can detect)
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On March 23 2013 04:06 DarQraven wrote:
Are there any actually solid builds for PvP? From what I've been able to deduce from my own experience so far:
- DT rush > 4gate (due to mothership core and no detection)
- 4gate > Stargate
- Stargate > Robo
- Robo > DT rush.
Are we back to the build order coinflip state of PVP?
Side question: What the hell do you do if both go DT?
Not really. For example if you open with double gate quick three stalkers you can shut down a 4 warp-gate and then go for stargate. A DT opening can easily expand behind it and then move into a chargelot/archon midgame versus robotics. You may gain slight advantages depending on build, but I don't think with competent players there should be as much build order wins.
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How do you ever fight swarm hosts? Even catching a group of 8 alone, they pack so much dps it decimates my army any way and then the roach/hydra sweeps in. Such a frustrating unit to play against.
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On March 23 2013 04:35 klaxen wrote:
How do you ever fight swarm hosts? Even catching a group of 8 alone, they pack so much dps it decimates my army any way and then the roach/hydra sweeps in. Such a frustrating unit to play against.
I'm wondering this myself... I've yet to actually win a game when my opponent got any significant number of them. There's just so many ways for zerg to counter colossi or VRs, and those are the only 2 things that really actually beat swarm hosts. Swarm host locust dps is more than hydras, its outrageous. Zealots just melt to them and if try to use stalkers they get demolished by blinding cloud and if you try and use voidrays they just add in hydras or corruptors.
Maybe we need to skip stalkers and vrs and just go pure tempest+high templar?
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On March 23 2013 05:00 Drowsy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:35 klaxen wrote:
How do you ever fight swarm hosts? Even catching a group of 8 alone, they pack so much dps it decimates my army any way and then the roach/hydra sweeps in. Such a frustrating unit to play against. I'm wondering this myself... I've yet to actually win a game when my opponent got any significant number of them. There's just so many ways for zerg to counter colossi or VRs, and those are the only 2 things that really actually beat swarm hosts. Swarm host locust dps is more than hydras, its outrageous. Zealots just melt to them and if try to use stalkers they get demolished by blinding cloud and if you try and use voidrays they just add in hydras or corruptors. Maybe we need to skip stalkers and vrs and just go pure tempest+high templar?
Get Colossi and range to deal with Swarm Hosts. If you open Stargate and scout fast Swarm Hosts, try to quickly transition into Colossi and halt VR production for a small while. Don't know how accurate this is in pro games and mid-high masters level, but high diamond it is working like a wonder.
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Italy12246 Posts
Squirtle vs Leenock on Icarus today is a pretty good overall example on how to deal with swarm hosts.
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On March 23 2013 05:16 Teoita wrote:
Squirtle vs Leenock on Icarus today is a pretty good overall example on how to deal with swarm hosts.
I watched that game. Essentially, get out obs, colossi asap (Squirtle was going for a massive gateway-based attack until Leenock showed up at his door with swarmhosts).
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Italy12246 Posts
Yeah colossi seem to work well.
I'm not sure how the game and timings change when you go 3base vs a 3base swarm host build, but the key is, together with colossi, to abuse their immobility. Squirtle used 2 zealot warp ins to buy time and force leenock back.
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what tournament is the squirtle vs leenock game from?
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On March 23 2013 05:43 probeater wrote:
what tournament is the squirtle vs leenock game from?
GSTL LG-IM vs FXOpen
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On March 23 2013 04:22 Salv wrote:Show nested quote +On March 23 2013 04:06 DarQraven wrote:
Are there any actually solid builds for PvP? From what I've been able to deduce from my own experience so far:
- DT rush > 4gate (due to mothership core and no detection)
- 4gate > Stargate
- Stargate > Robo
- Robo > DT rush.
Are we back to the build order coinflip state of PVP?
Side question: What the hell do you do if both go DT? Not really. For example if you open with double gate quick three stalkers you can shut down a 4 warp-gate and then go for stargate. A DT opening can easily expand behind it and then move into a chargelot/archon midgame versus robotics. You may gain slight advantages depending on build, but I don't think with competent players there should be as much build order wins.
I agree 100 %, you should never flat out lose to robo with DTs, zarchon lols at robo based armies, without great SimCity of course!
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On March 23 2013 04:06 DarQraven wrote:
Are there any actually solid builds for PvP? From what I've been able to deduce from my own experience so far:
- DT rush > 4gate (due to mothership core and no detection)
- 4gate > Stargate
- Stargate > Robo
- Robo > DT rush.
Are we back to the build order coinflip state of PVP?
Side question: What the hell do you do if both go DT?
On March 23 2013 04:10 Squiggles wrote:
With the high-ground warp-in change, MSC, holding 4-gates should be pretty easy nowadays unless you really, really, skimped on units.
Stargate > All in PvP right now IMO (oracle can detect)
PvP has always been more coin flippy than other match ups but there are many of builds out there that while may be at a disadvantage against certain builds, aren't going to be 100% build order losses.
I think you might be thinking of PvP builds too one-dimensionally. A DT build doesn't have to be just "rush to DTs and hope your opponent doesn't have detection." A robo build doesn't have to be "make immortals and then colossus." It's also perfectly viable to go for 2 of the 3 available tech paths at the same time - blink/dt + robo, stargate + robo, etc. You're also missing FE/gateway expand builds, which are now better than ever due to the defensive capabilities of the MSC.
For example, DT builds - you can go for a 4 gate DT all-in, where if your opponent has detection, you just make an archon to bust FFs and then walk into your opponent's base with a huge army. Stargate openers will have difficulty holding this since not only do you need detection, you also need a lot of units to hold. Alternatively, you can go DT expand, which uses DTs defensively by not allowing them to attack without detection, and also to gain map control and threaten them with backstabbing DTs if they don't keep detection and troops inside their own base. This allows you to expand and get a robo for detection if your opponent also goes DTs, and/or immortals if your opponent goes for a blink + obs counter. Against stargate openers, you're safe since an oracle can't be in 2 places at once.
Another example is the robo opener. Typically nowadays your goal if you open robo as your first tech building is to get a pretty fast expansion. If your opponent opens stargate , you still should be able to put down your expansion quickly, then tech to blink while making enough stalkers to defend any phoenix or oracle harass. Then you can transition into a zealot/stalker/archon 2 base timing which is good against zealot/immortal/void ray.
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EPT
