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On July 12 2013 00:12 Buzerio wrote:
I have a problem dealing with widow mines when I play Muta/Ling/Bling (or really anything) I just cant kill them cost effectively even if I know exactly where they are
Honestly. you really shouldn't be able to. You just need to make them as little cost efficient as possible 
If the widow mines are completely alone they are easy to send a single ling to each one and then kill them off easily but if they have any support then you really arnt going to be able to.
So the best way to do it is to judge how big the terran army is and send a small pack of lings that will survive long enough to activate (hopefully) all of the mines. get as many as you can and if you feel as though you got them all/enough then go ahead and attack. But even here you have to be careful because a lot of terrans keep more mines behind. So make sure you are split up as much as possible.
lets use a bit of visuals :D
O is the terran army (blob of units) and you take your units O and a-move you will die if you miss just one mine. O-> <-O (its a picture, hush)
BUT if you split so your army is positioned like | (this is a line, split up units. doing this will dramatically help getting a faster surround on a terran force as well.)
you avoid most of the potential splash as only like 5-8ish lings in a line will be effected, soo like this O-> <-|
Another trick with this is don't a-move and right click behind the terran units and as soon as you get behind then you do a ling a-move to trap and get an instant surround. Once again the widow mines will be cost effective, but if you do it quick enough or catch the terran off guard (like they don't stim and runb back to the mines) then the mines will deal just as much damage to them as they do you.
There are obviously other ways of doing it, Infestors are good to lob IT to activate mines, i keep hearing changlings work but i havn't tested it. but my favorite way (which is dangerous) is get an ovie speed overseer with my mutas and pick them off one by one. i believe it takes 10 to one shot it before it goes off (Please if i'm wrong correct me).; So spot it, stack the mutas, one shot it and fly away. You can't do this with 2-3 mines, but if you get like 20-30 mutas the splash i think can kill the 2nd mine. but any more than 2 then you NEED lings to help.
EDIT: didn't see Big j post as i was writing mine HE is much better at this than me ;3
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I'm not sure most zerg realize what their worst Matchup is... They all complain about terrans and mines or hellbats, but every time I look at their statistics it seems like their ratio against protoss are actually worse.
And that's what i'm looking for : Is there any mid-high master zerg that has a positive ratio (preferably over 60% with like 150 games) against protoss ? I may be pushing a little too hard with myself because i've a ratio of 50% on all matchup, but whenever I play a protoss I feel so depressed that everytime I win that's because my opponent was way worse than me, and if I'm losing, I'm the only one to blame.
I had a somewhat ok-ish opening but now with the gate openers, I've to start everything from scratch.
I'm getting really sick of this...
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What are the most standard BOs and unit compositions in every matchup?
I used to play WoL but didnt buy HotS till now.
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On July 12 2013 10:01 RaiZ wrote:
I'm not sure most zerg realize what their worst Matchup is... They all complain about terrans and mines or hellbats, but every time I look at their statistics it seems like their ratio against protoss are actually worse.
And that's what i'm looking for : Is there any mid-high master zerg that has a positive ratio (preferably over 60% with like 150 games) against protoss ? I may be pushing a little too hard with myself because i've a ratio of 50% on all matchup, but whenever I play a protoss I feel so depressed that everytime I win that's because my opponent was way worse than me, and if I'm losing, I'm the only one to blame.
I had a somewhat ok-ish opening but now with the gate openers, I've to start everything from scratch.
I'm getting really sick of this...
I was actually at like 70% zvp, high masters. That was last season though, I haven't played a lot of starcraft yet this season. My plan is usually 1. All in coming? Yes - defend. No? 2. Can I go mutas? if yes, mass muta, win easily. If they open stargate - so no mutas - hydra/swarmhost.
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On July 11 2013 04:09 Kaleidos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 03:56 Tribuno wrote:
ZvZ
i'm using (with a nice success) the snute build.. gasless opening into 1/1 roaches timing while taking a third and drone behind the attack. When i go lair, i immediately morph and overseer to scout the tech.. if i see muta (at this timing the spire is generally 1/2 or 3/4 done), i generally make 6 spores (2 for each base but i make 2 in the middle of the creep waiting for my third base to finish) and i plant an hydra den making like 4-5 hydras when it pops. I generally defend by the mutas quite easy doing this but i don't know if this is an overcommit..cause i have to rebuild the drones used for the spines and my economy is not in an optimal shape.. what do you think about it? Snute updated his roach play quite a bit. You can check this vod where he explains it in details : Snute Roach playBasically he takes a faster 3rd and a quick lair while skipping the carapace upgrade.
That is really nice, thank you, i'll check it! But still.. what do you suggest to deal with mutas? are 6 spores (2 for each base) too much?
I have another question.. ZvP how to deal with 2 immortal/2 colossus allin? its incredibly strong.. i think i need corruptors but i fell i don't have enough time to build them and a solid army of roach/hydra..
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On July 12 2013 19:47 Tribuno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 04:09 Kaleidos wrote:On July 11 2013 03:56 Tribuno wrote:
ZvZ
i'm using (with a nice success) the snute build.. gasless opening into 1/1 roaches timing while taking a third and drone behind the attack. When i go lair, i immediately morph and overseer to scout the tech.. if i see muta (at this timing the spire is generally 1/2 or 3/4 done), i generally make 6 spores (2 for each base but i make 2 in the middle of the creep waiting for my third base to finish) and i plant an hydra den making like 4-5 hydras when it pops. I generally defend by the mutas quite easy doing this but i don't know if this is an overcommit..cause i have to rebuild the drones used for the spines and my economy is not in an optimal shape.. what do you think about it? Snute updated his roach play quite a bit. You can check this vod where he explains it in details : Snute Roach playBasically he takes a faster 3rd and a quick lair while skipping the carapace upgrade. That is really nice, thank you, i'll check it! But still.. what do you suggest to deal with mutas? are 6 spores (2 for each base) too much? I have another question.. ZvP how to deal with 2 immortal/2 colossus allin? its incredibly strong.. i think i need corruptors but i fell i don't have enough time to build them and a solid army of roach/hydra..
Sounds like swarmhosts would deal with that just fine.
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On July 12 2013 20:08 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2013 19:47 Tribuno wrote:On July 11 2013 04:09 Kaleidos wrote:On July 11 2013 03:56 Tribuno wrote:
ZvZ
i'm using (with a nice success) the snute build.. gasless opening into 1/1 roaches timing while taking a third and drone behind the attack. When i go lair, i immediately morph and overseer to scout the tech.. if i see muta (at this timing the spire is generally 1/2 or 3/4 done), i generally make 6 spores (2 for each base but i make 2 in the middle of the creep waiting for my third base to finish) and i plant an hydra den making like 4-5 hydras when it pops. I generally defend by the mutas quite easy doing this but i don't know if this is an overcommit..cause i have to rebuild the drones used for the spines and my economy is not in an optimal shape.. what do you think about it? Snute updated his roach play quite a bit. You can check this vod where he explains it in details : Snute Roach playBasically he takes a faster 3rd and a quick lair while skipping the carapace upgrade. That is really nice, thank you, i'll check it! But still.. what do you suggest to deal with mutas? are 6 spores (2 for each base) too much? I have another question.. ZvP how to deal with 2 immortal/2 colossus allin? its incredibly strong.. i think i need corruptors but i fell i don't have enough time to build them and a solid army of roach/hydra.. Sounds like swarmhosts would deal with that just fine.
i think blade mentioned that roach SHs laughs about that push. but you have to scout it early enough!
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On July 12 2013 19:47 Tribuno wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2013 04:09 Kaleidos wrote:On July 11 2013 03:56 Tribuno wrote:
ZvZ
i'm using (with a nice success) the snute build.. gasless opening into 1/1 roaches timing while taking a third and drone behind the attack. When i go lair, i immediately morph and overseer to scout the tech.. if i see muta (at this timing the spire is generally 1/2 or 3/4 done), i generally make 6 spores (2 for each base but i make 2 in the middle of the creep waiting for my third base to finish) and i plant an hydra den making like 4-5 hydras when it pops. I generally defend by the mutas quite easy doing this but i don't know if this is an overcommit..cause i have to rebuild the drones used for the spines and my economy is not in an optimal shape.. what do you think about it? Snute updated his roach play quite a bit. You can check this vod where he explains it in details : Snute Roach playBasically he takes a faster 3rd and a quick lair while skipping the carapace upgrade. That is really nice, thank you, i'll check it! But still.. what do you suggest to deal with mutas? are 6 spores (2 for each base) too much?
I think 2-3 spores per base is totally fine, almost mandatory. I'm still using mutas myself (transitioning into roach or host depending on map) and i think roach play is fine BUT you really want to mess up/delay his 3rd with your roaches before mutas are out.
When you don't and stay too passive, i feel that he is getting a pretty big advantage over you, not game ending but not good either.
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Hi  My question is this: Is the following a good rule of thumb for novice Zergs (such as myself) to guide their tech choices:
"Never be making more types of fighting unit than you have bases."
Emphasis on 'rule of thumb' and 'novice', here.
Reason being, I talk to a few novice Zergs who get to lair on two bases and just totally lose their shit with tech. Boom, infestation pit and spire go down while they're hosing out roaches. Then it's a hydra den because they need some anti-air in a hurry. Then they sit there crying like a kid with all toys and no batteries while someone flattens them with zealots.
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Zvp- just lost to some toss that went 18 voids + temps + zealots, just kiting and storming when you chase... Even with 3-3 hydras, what do you do vs 18 voids? I was using roach to buffer zeals, but even the voids themselves just raped my hydras.
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On July 13 2013 02:32 Umpteen wrote:Hi My question is this: Is the following a good rule of thumb for novice Zergs (such as myself) to guide their tech choices: "Never be making more types of fighting unit than you have bases." Emphasis on 'rule of thumb' and 'novice', here. Reason being, I talk to a few novice Zergs who get to lair on two bases and just totally lose their shit with tech. Boom, infestation pit and spire go down while they're hosing out roaches. Then it's a hydra den because they need some anti-air in a hurry. Then they sit there crying like a kid with all toys and no batteries while someone flattens them with zealots.
Well, I wouldn't really phrase it by that, it's just a matter of simple logic - you don't have gas to use every tech route. If you go both infestors and mutas you'll end up with 3 infestors and 5 mutas which aren't scary at all - or you could be looking at 14 mutas (by not using the path glands/infestation pit) which is something that will scare your opponent.
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On July 13 2013 02:41 JohnJohnson wrote:
Zvp- just lost to some toss that went 18 voids + temps + zealots, just kiting and storming when you chase... Even with 3-3 hydras, what do you do vs 18 voids? I was using roach to buffer zeals, but even the voids themselves just raped my hydras.
Mass spores and infestors. Even then you're gonna have a hard time taking down 18 voids, and rightfully so.
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Iw seen players like dimaga and happyzerg go mass queen to deal with mass voidrays, mass queen and some ultras to deal with ground army should be optimal. Its very slow army though so creeep very important possibly nydus.
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On July 13 2013 02:41 JohnJohnson wrote:
Zvp- just lost to some toss that went 18 voids + temps + zealots, just kiting and storming when you chase... Even with 3-3 hydras, what do you do vs 18 voids? I was using roach to buffer zeals, but even the voids themselves just raped my hydras.
Get swarmhosts. Hydra/swarmhost will crap on this composition. The locusts from the free units will take care of zealots/stalkers/templar with ease and it allows your hydralisks to focus on the voidrays as well rather then storm/chargelot and void rays.
Ultra/hydra works as well.
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On July 13 2013 02:51 Henk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:32 Umpteen wrote:Hi My question is this: Is the following a good rule of thumb for novice Zergs (such as myself) to guide their tech choices: "Never be making more types of fighting unit than you have bases." Emphasis on 'rule of thumb' and 'novice', here. Reason being, I talk to a few novice Zergs who get to lair on two bases and just totally lose their shit with tech. Boom, infestation pit and spire go down while they're hosing out roaches. Then it's a hydra den because they need some anti-air in a hurry. Then they sit there crying like a kid with all toys and no batteries while someone flattens them with zealots. Well, I wouldn't really phrase it by that, it's just a matter of simple logic - you don't have gas to use every tech route. If you go both infestors and mutas you'll end up with 3 infestors and 5 mutas which aren't scary at all - or you could be looking at 14 mutas (by not using the path glands/infestation pit) which is something that will scare your opponent.
If it were simple logic for everyone, nobody would be doing it, right?
To put it less flippantly, you actually DO have enough gas - in the geysers - to use all those tech routes, especially if you have this vague idea that you'll be on more bases at some point. What you don't have is the leisure to mine that gas, and appreciating that requires an understanding of the timings you're facing and opportunities you're missing.
The other problem is bad macro. Zerg production means it's very easy to blow large banks quickly with high-tech units, so bad players (hello) will often muddle through the early stages building up a trust fund, then dump it all on mutas/infestors/swarm hosts/banelings and not really grasp how badly they're failing. They don't connect the fact they can't maintain production, after the initial blowout, with the fact they should never have had that bank in the first place.
The idea was to come up with a rule of thumb that rubs your nose in what you're doing wrong.
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I feel like in every ZvP now days i am FORCED to go SH whenever i see air. is there really no other way? I'm tired of SH
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On July 13 2013 05:03 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On July 13 2013 02:51 Henk wrote:On July 13 2013 02:32 Umpteen wrote:Hi My question is this: Is the following a good rule of thumb for novice Zergs (such as myself) to guide their tech choices: "Never be making more types of fighting unit than you have bases." Emphasis on 'rule of thumb' and 'novice', here. Reason being, I talk to a few novice Zergs who get to lair on two bases and just totally lose their shit with tech. Boom, infestation pit and spire go down while they're hosing out roaches. Then it's a hydra den because they need some anti-air in a hurry. Then they sit there crying like a kid with all toys and no batteries while someone flattens them with zealots. Well, I wouldn't really phrase it by that, it's just a matter of simple logic - you don't have gas to use every tech route. If you go both infestors and mutas you'll end up with 3 infestors and 5 mutas which aren't scary at all - or you could be looking at 14 mutas (by not using the path glands/infestation pit) which is something that will scare your opponent. If it were simple logic for everyone, nobody would be doing it, right? To put it less flippantly, you actually DO have enough gas - in the geysers - to use all those tech routes, especially if you have this vague idea that you'll be on more bases at some point. What you don't have is the leisure to mine that gas, and appreciating that requires an understanding of the timings you're facing and opportunities you're missing. The other problem is bad macro. Zerg production means it's very easy to blow large banks quickly with high-tech units, so bad players (hello) will often muddle through the early stages building up a trust fund, then dump it all on mutas/infestors/swarm hosts/banelings and not really grasp how badly they're failing. They don't connect the fact they can't maintain production, after the initial blowout, with the fact they should never have had that bank in the first place. The idea was to come up with a rule of thumb that rubs your nose in what you're doing wrong.
Well yeah, obviously. That's obviously exactly what I am saying. But instead of saying 'don't use 4 kinds of tech on two bases cuz 4>2 = bad' you could simply say 'Have a gameplan. Have a composition in mind and work towards it'. The problem with bronze players is usually not knowing what the hell they're doing. They see void rays and want to make mutas (Because the manual says muta>voidray!) but have no idea how the void ray synergizes with something like phoenix/archons/HT or whatever.
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On July 13 2013 05:25 cardmagican wrote:
I feel like in every ZvP now days i am FORCED to go SH whenever i see air. is there really no other way? I'm tired of SH
You could try to end it with Hyun's roach-hydra-viper 12-14 minute max timing. Hyun's been using it a lot lately - don't have a BO or anything though. Perhaps someone else remembers in which games he used it.
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On July 13 2013 05:27 Henk wrote:
You could try to end it with Hyun's roach-hydra-viper 12-14 minute max timing. Hyun's been using it a lot lately - don't have a BO or anything though. Perhaps someone else remembers in which games he used it.
There was a post at the bottom of P.73 that linked that style if I remember correctly.
Here is a link: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=402752¤tpage=73
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I've been doing that and it usually works out alright. but in surprisingly more increasing situations instead of opening void ray air they open with phoenix into carriers or straight into carriers then voidrays
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EPT
