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Hello Guys.
I am currently High Master Terran on Eu Server, but i have Problems with my TvT. Early Game is fine, my Build is ok i think. It just like i always lose my Advantage in the Mid-Lategame. I play Marine Tank only. And i only lose vs other Marine Tank players. No Problems against Mech.
Somehow always my opponent wins in the end even if he dont does big moves like a doomdrop or so.
Can someone give me tips for tvt and maybe have some new hots vods for me that show really good long tvt Matches (not to long Airswitch isnt the Problem really.) Would be nice. Thank you! 
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if they have 0 turrets why are you 1aing?
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On April 30 2013 05:26 Deepflow wrote:
if they have 0 turrets why are you 1aing?
? What do you mean exactly? I said I would make it to masters with pure marines, macro and 1a. That doesn't say I won't make turrets...
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On April 30 2013 05:19 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:04 Sissors wrote:On April 30 2013 03:00 NYghost wrote:
Hmm I guess Macro isn't enough to get your to diamond i guess...so much for the people saying Macro gets you to diamond... Those claims are also ridiculous. I am sure if you got GM level macro you can get to diamond with only focussing on macro, but how is that better than only cannon-rushing your opponent? Also with that you can get to diamond. And also with only micro (well you need to make some units, but lets say only blink stalker all-ins) you can get to diamond, if it simply is enough better than your opponents. And yeah in general frontal assaults on larger tank lines is just plain suicidal, no matter how much your macro advantage is. Simply because at that point your opponent got an enormous advantage in the common-sense department (also called decission making and strategy). This game isn't only about macro, it is one aspect, a fairly important one, but definately not the only one. OK, let me explain some key, core concepts of Starcraft 2 to you.
Wow, thanks for your generosity, how can I ever repay my debt to you?
This automatically disproves your point about being able to get to diamond purely with micro, because if you are not executing the builds properly they can hit minutes late, and even with Yonghwa level blink stalker micro you would not be able to win.
First of all I think you are really stretching the meaning of 'macro' when you put blindly following a BO as macro. But okay. Next you make your second mistake. If your blink stalker attack hits a minute late you can still no problem get to diamond, if your micro (and multitasking helps to) is sick enough.
If you can get your various numbers higher than your opponent's, that gives you a wider margin of error and allows you to make more mistakes.
If you got better micro/decission making than your opponent you have a wider margin of error in your macro department...
You improve decision making and game sense by watching professional games and FPVODs, and playing a ton.
Well I would say mainly that second part.
Of course as I said earlier (and I think you kinda ignored), macro is an important part of SC2. I wouldn't want to deny that. Simply having more units than your opponent is of course a huge advantage. At the same time if your decision making is so bad you suicide them all that was a pretty useless advantage. If you got good macro you got more margin for errors, but also if you got good micro you got more margin for errors. And if you got bad map awareness but good macro, you still got a problem since you will be macro'ing simply to try to limit the damage the drops did. You are then better of making sure the drops don't do that damage in the first place.
In the end everything is important in SC2, luckily otherwise it would be a really boring game (especially when you have some people who whine that that all-in/cheeze the opponent did took no skill and their macro game they wanted to play was way superior skill wise, yet they lacked the skill to stop the opponents attack).
You could claim that with macro you get your units, and with everything else you prevent them from dying too much. I don't see why that would make macro more important than other stuff, but okay, whatever floats your boat. But personally I rather got 50 marines that take down the opponents third, than 100 marines that run right into a siege line because I had better macro but worse game sense.
Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets.
I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league.
Turrets aren't marines. Then I can get to masters (well diamond) with toss by only making mothership (and cannons).
And scouting isn't included in this. You were only going to do 1rax FE with only macro, scouting is no macro. No micro whatsoever, no pulling SCVs to repair a wall-of when it is attacked, no multitasking when dropped in two locations, no scanning a mine field, nothing.
Edit: well okay you may scan the minefield after you lost all your clumped up marines to it.
Edit2: Honestly defending a cannon rush with only marines and a-moving? So no targeting the probe.
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On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets.
I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league. Turrets aren't marines. Then I can get to masters (well diamond) with toss by only making mothership (and cannons). And scouting isn't included in this. You were only going to do 1rax FE with only macro, scouting is no macro. No micro whatsoever, no pulling SCVs to repair a wall-of when it is attacked, no multitasking when dropped in two locations, no scanning a mine field, nothing.
Well, challenge accepted. No turrets, no bunkers, no repair. What every master should be able to do is scanning against cloacked units, and 1a those cloacked units, so I will do that.
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On April 30 2013 05:23 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:04 Sissors wrote:
@Snowbear, so that is including the auto-losses you will get against every 6-pool, every cannon rush, every early terran agression, every banshee/dt play? Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets. I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league. Do you guys want me to do this experiment? If yes, then I will do it this weekend. I will use a guestpass
I believe it can be done. So if you think it's fun and if you're good enough why not try it
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On April 30 2013 05:26 Deepflow wrote:
if they have 0 turrets why are you 1aing?
I think he was talking to me...cause I have better macro= more units= should be able to 1A
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On April 30 2013 05:48 NYghost wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:26 Deepflow wrote:
if they have 0 turrets why are you 1aing? I think he was talking to me...cause I have better macro= more units= should be able to 1A
Except Starcraft doesn't work like that. At all.
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On April 30 2013 05:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote:Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets.
I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league. Turrets aren't marines. Then I can get to masters (well diamond) with toss by only making mothership (and cannons). And scouting isn't included in this. You were only going to do 1rax FE with only macro, scouting is no macro. No micro whatsoever, no pulling SCVs to repair a wall-of when it is attacked, no multitasking when dropped in two locations, no scanning a mine field, nothing. Well, challenge accepted. No turrets, no bunkers, no repair. What every master should be able to do is scanning against cloacked units, and 1a those cloacked units, so I will do that.
Well what a master also should be able to do is more than a-moving his marines, but okay.
Also wouldn't be surprised if the lower leagues would be harder than gold-plat, because probably more cheese happens there. And I still would be surprised if you don't actually do stuff besides macro that is really significant to how you play. Not intentional, but simply because so many things that are second nature for a good player are not part of macro.
Btw before you use your weekend on this: I don't think it is impossible. However I do think it proofs little, as you can also get to masters with only blink stalker all-ins (which require little macro), or 4-gating. Hell isn't (wasn't) there a GM player who pretty much only cannon rushes?
What my point is that purely focussing on macro because it would be superior to everything else is imo a bad idea. Sure you can play a bit while only focussing on your macro to improve that, just as you could play with a micro trainer, and you could tell yourself you play your next X games only defensive with your main army and then dropping the enemy to death. All nice ways to train specific skillsets, and I don't consider training your macro superior to everything else.
And especially if a player would want to get to league X I would never advice him to only macro and nothing else. That you can do it doesnt mean you should do it.
So TL;DR: If you think it is enjoyable to try it, sure go ahead, I am not stopping you . But you don't have to convince me it is possible.
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On April 30 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:44 Snowbear wrote:On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote:Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets.
I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league. Turrets aren't marines. Then I can get to masters (well diamond) with toss by only making mothership (and cannons). And scouting isn't included in this. You were only going to do 1rax FE with only macro, scouting is no macro. No micro whatsoever, no pulling SCVs to repair a wall-of when it is attacked, no multitasking when dropped in two locations, no scanning a mine field, nothing. Well, challenge accepted. No turrets, no bunkers, no repair. What every master should be able to do is scanning against cloacked units, and 1a those cloacked units, so I will do that. Well what a master also should be able to do is more than a-moving his marines, but okay. Also wouldn't be surprised if the lower leagues would be harder than gold-plat, because probably more cheese happens there. And I still would be surprised if you don't actually do stuff besides macro that is really significant to how you play. Not intentional, but simply because so many things that are second nature for a good player are not part of macro. Btw before you use your weekend on this: I don't think it is impossible. However I do think it proofs little, as you can also get to masters with only blink stalker all-ins (which require little macro), or 4-gating. Hell isn't (wasn't) there a GM player who pretty much only cannon rushes? What my point is that purely focussing on macro because it would be superior to everything else is imo a bad idea. Sure you can play a bit while only focussing on your macro to improve that, just as you could play with a micro trainer, and you could tell yourself you play your next X games only defensive with your main army and then dropping the enemy to death. All nice ways to train specific skillsets, and I don't consider training your macro superior to everything else. And especially if a player would want to get to league X I would never advice him to only macro and nothing else. That you can do it doesnt mean you should do it.
Out of interest what league are you? Because your idea that less cheese happens as you go up isn't really correct. I mostly agree with everything else you said, but the reason macro is flaunted so much if you want to be a better player is simply because it is the easiest to improve up to a certain point.
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On April 30 2013 05:55 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:53 Sissors wrote:On April 30 2013 05:44 Snowbear wrote:On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote:Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets.
I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league. Turrets aren't marines. Then I can get to masters (well diamond) with toss by only making mothership (and cannons). And scouting isn't included in this. You were only going to do 1rax FE with only macro, scouting is no macro. No micro whatsoever, no pulling SCVs to repair a wall-of when it is attacked, no multitasking when dropped in two locations, no scanning a mine field, nothing. Well, challenge accepted. No turrets, no bunkers, no repair. What every master should be able to do is scanning against cloacked units, and 1a those cloacked units, so I will do that. Well what a master also should be able to do is more than a-moving his marines, but okay. Also wouldn't be surprised if the lower leagues would be harder than gold-plat, because probably more cheese happens there. And I still would be surprised if you don't actually do stuff besides macro that is really significant to how you play. Not intentional, but simply because so many things that are second nature for a good player are not part of macro. Btw before you use your weekend on this: I don't think it is impossible. However I do think it proofs little, as you can also get to masters with only blink stalker all-ins (which require little macro), or 4-gating. Hell isn't (wasn't) there a GM player who pretty much only cannon rushes? What my point is that purely focussing on macro because it would be superior to everything else is imo a bad idea. Sure you can play a bit while only focussing on your macro to improve that, just as you could play with a micro trainer, and you could tell yourself you play your next X games only defensive with your main army and then dropping the enemy to death. All nice ways to train specific skillsets, and I don't consider training your macro superior to everything else. And especially if a player would want to get to league X I would never advice him to only macro and nothing else. That you can do it doesnt mean you should do it. Out of interest what league are you? Because your idea that less cheese happens as you go up isn't really correct. I mostly agree with everything else you said, but the reason macro is flaunted so much if you want to be a better player is simply because it is the easiest to improve up to a certain point.
Okay there I could probably agree with you, that initially for players it is a good start to look at macro since there is alot (most?) gain to be reached. (Probably together with using semi-decent BO's).
I am masters league, so yeah haven't played in bronze/silver for a while, so maybe my idea that more cheese happens there is incorrect .
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On April 30 2013 05:26 decisioN wrote:Hello Guys. I am currently High Master Terran on Eu Server, but i have Problems with my TvT. Early Game is fine, my Build is ok i think. It just like i always lose my Advantage in the Mid-Lategame. I play Marine Tank only. And i only lose vs other Marine Tank players. No Problems against Mech. Somehow always my opponent wins in the end even if he dont does big moves like a doomdrop or so. Can someone give me tips for tvt and maybe have some new hots vods for me that show really good long tvt Matches (not to long Airswitch isnt the Problem really.) Would be nice. Thank you!
There is a vod from day9, where thorzain goes marinetank vs marinetank. Day9 analyzes why thorzains won against demuslim and other terran pro's. day9 daily ep. 394 Terran week Thorzains build and execution
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Does there exist a way how i can punish a 2 rax reaper FE with a reactor Fac FE?
What is the best way?
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On April 30 2013 07:04 saaaa wrote:
Does there exist a way how i can punish a 2 rax reaper FE with a reactor Fac FE?
What is the best way?
A transition you could use is a 1/1/1 widow mine or hellbat drop. If he goes a for a third rax immediately after expanding, you could even play cloaked banshees to make him waste scans.
TheDwf said no.
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why doesn't mech have an AA option?
Thor isn't good because of magic boxing, widow mines are useless because all it takes is an overseer to bait it out (won't even 1 shot it), vikings can't be produced fast enough to counter them. I've tried going marine mech but it's not viable because you need too many upgrades.
i thought they were supposed to make mech viable for all leagues in HotS?
This is only for TvZ, don't get me started on TvP
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On April 30 2013 07:26 gamerdude12345 wrote:
why doesn't mech have an AA option?
Thor isn't good because of magic boxing, widow mines are useless because all it takes is an overseer to bait it out (won't even 1 shot it), vikings can't be produced fast enough to counter them. I've tried going marine mech but it's not viable because you need too many upgrades.
i thought they were supposed to make mech viable for all leagues in HotS?
This is only for TvZ, don't get me started on TvP
Turrets + Thors is fine. Lots of widow mines can be awesome..don't know what you're talking about..but they are optional. Marine/mech might not be the most optimal but it is definitely viable. 3-0 marines 3-0 mech can definitely work.
If you want to play the most common style of TvZ mech, then you just open up with hellbat drops after 1rax FE or CC first. Lots of pros doing this.
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On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote:
First of all I think you are really stretching the meaning of 'macro' when you put blindly following a BO as macro. But okay. Next you make your second mistake. If your blink stalker attack hits a minute late you can still no problem get to diamond, if your micro (and multitasking helps to) is sick enough.
Neither your micro nor your multitask can be "sick" if you're below Diamond. Your "compensation theory" only works on paper; in practice you never see a Gold player with "Master micro". The skill sets of a player can of course vary from one area to another, but still they're linked together and thus all revolve around a centre of gravity, making it impossible to have a player with "GM decision making" if he has "Diamond macro". If your Blink Stalker attack hits one minut late, I guarantee it won't be counterbalanced by "sick micro" because if the player had this micro, his Blink Stalker attack would never hit one minute late in the first place.
On April 30 2013 07:04 saaaa wrote:
Does there exist a way how i can punish a 2 rax reaper FE with a reactor Fac FE?
No.
On April 30 2013 07:12 AKomrade wrote:
You're ahead if you're able to defend without losing much, simply because you have a CC out faster.
Both openings expand at the same time (around 4'30).
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On April 30 2013 07:39 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote:
First of all I think you are really stretching the meaning of 'macro' when you put blindly following a BO as macro. But okay. Next you make your second mistake. If your blink stalker attack hits a minute late you can still no problem get to diamond, if your micro (and multitasking helps to) is sick enough. Neither your micro nor your multitask can be "sick" if you're below Diamond. Your "compensation theory" only works on paper; in practice you never see a Gold player with "Master micro". The skill sets of a player can of course vary from one area to another, but still they're linked together and thus all revolve around a centre of gravity, making it impossible to have a player with "GM decision making" if he has "Diamond macro". If your Blink Stalker attack hits one minut late, I guarantee it won't be counterbalanced by "sick micro" because if the player had this micro, his Blink Stalker attack would never hit one minute late in the first place.
Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 07:04 saaaa wrote:
Does there exist a way how i can punish a 2 rax reaper FE with a reactor Fac FE? No.
Show nested quote +On April 30 2013 07:12 AKomrade wrote:
You're ahead if you're able to defend without losing much, simply because you have a CC out faster. Both openings expand at the same time (around 4'30).
Fuck. Thanks.
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On April 30 2013 07:04 saaaa wrote:
Does there exist a way how i can punish a 2 rax reaper FE with a reactor Fac FE?
What is the best way?
I myself like bansheeplay the most because i am a bioplayer :
1. The transition into 3/1/1 bio/tank is still possible without having wasted any resources;
2. reaper do not shoot air and there 100 gas delays starport a bit, so chances to do damage are there)
3. Damaged gasincome for a certain period (as i tend to pick of as many scv's in gas as possible, it will delay there tech even more);
4. Scouted there entire base and can choose any followup. I do not even have to have cloak for that (they wasted 100 gas for 2 reapers, so that means u have time to punish there double reaper opening).
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This is a bit of a weird question, but I'm going to ask anyway. Why is it that everyone wants mech only to be viable? In particular I get the impression that to some extent people think you should be able to go only bio, or only mech. Thats not to say that there aren't strategies that use both types of units, but there seems to be this dichotomy that feels out of place.
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EPT
