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The HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 63

Forum Index > StarCraft 2 Strategy
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
korsarz
Profile Joined March 2013
29 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-28 10:00:34
April 28 2013 09:46 GMT
#1241
On April 28 2013 14:26 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Ok, I'm gonna help you on this despite your attitude


Thanks, much appreciated.
Every time I get to play against a toss, I get a mental breakdown.

I try to follow Filtersc tips on how to open vs protoss. I used to have that match-up fairly organized in Wol where toss didn't have that much of early aggression options but after having faced multiple 1-base all-ins I decided to build my CC in my main and then land it in my natural which obviously delays everything.

About workers - of course, that was a totally sc...up element but in Wol I could easily reach 44-48 at the 10 minute mark. In Hots, everything is messed up...
Should I build my CC in my natural like I did in Wol? I've read that this is not recommended because of the early pushes with MCS.

What I play vs toss: rax, expand in main, 2xrax, 2xgas. (in that order). Should I go for rax+reactor?

Could you recommend any safe openers? As I said - I tried to follow Filtersc ones but in one of the tutorials he admitted that they might be susceptible to any early pressure.





User was warned for this post
Emporium
Profile Joined May 2012
England162 Posts
April 28 2013 09:47 GMT
#1242
I was reading the OP, and saw the part about the mines not detonating on changelings, this is incorrect.

Mines will detonate on changelings if you have vision of them as a changeling, when they come into the radius of a mine, then it will detonate, but if you dont have vision of it as a changeling when it comes into the radius of a mine, and has already changed to the pseudomarine then it won't detonate.

I had a guy baneling bust me, where he used the changelings to detonate the mines...pretty irritating.
Remember your mortality.
DifuntO
Profile Joined November 2011
Greece2376 Posts
April 28 2013 11:08 GMT
#1243
So i go for a 3rd CC/double e-bay. I see the zerg going for a very early infestation pit/hive.

How should i react?
All I do is Stim.
Roynalf
Profile Joined August 2011
Finland886 Posts
April 28 2013 11:37 GMT
#1244
On April 28 2013 20:08 DifuntO wrote:
So i go for a 3rd CC/double e-bay. I see the zerg going for a very early infestation pit/hive.

How should i react?


Go nuts with the drops and get ready little bit earlier for ultra tech
(V) (;,,;) (V) Woopwoopwoopwoop
Thor.Rush
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden702 Posts
April 28 2013 11:48 GMT
#1245
Yeah I just start being aggressive on the map, trying to deny expansions and start making lots of marauders.
| SaSe | Naniwa |Stephano | LucifroN | Mvp | MarineKing | ByuN | Polt | MC | Parting |
Emporium
Profile Joined May 2012
England162 Posts
April 28 2013 12:27 GMT
#1246
On April 28 2013 18:46 korsarz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 28 2013 14:26 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Ok, I'm gonna help you on this despite your attitude


Thanks, much appreciated.
Every time I get to play against a toss, I get a mental breakdown.

I try to follow Filtersc tips on how to open vs protoss. I used to have that match-up fairly organized in Wol where toss didn't have that much of early aggression options but after having faced multiple 1-base all-ins I decided to build my CC in my main and then land it in my natural which obviously delays everything.

About workers - of course, that was a totally sc...up element but in Wol I could easily reach 44-48 at the 10 minute mark. In Hots, everything is messed up...
Should I build my CC in my natural like I did in Wol? I've read that this is not recommended because of the early pushes with MCS.

What I play vs toss: rax, expand in main, 2xrax, 2xgas. (in that order). Should I go for rax+reactor?

Could you recommend any safe openers? As I said - I tried to follow Filtersc ones but in one of the tutorials he admitted that they might be susceptible to any early pressure.






I am rank 2 dia, and i have been opening either 12rax 15gas reactor then CC and only 1 rax added after with a quicker factory and starport. It means you can have slightly faster ebay aswell(for those pesky dt's)!

I watched demuslim do the build originally on his stream, i quite like it versus toss, can give you solid map control early, and if he tries to be too greedy, you can definitely poke at his front and try and make him make mistakes.

Remember your mortality.
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 28 2013 13:03 GMT
#1247
On April 27 2013 00:48 Olsson wrote:
TvP: Opening 15 gas into CC, 1/1/1 with mines, marines and medivacs. I struggle to hold blink stalker all-ins and I'm also not sure when to get my e-bays and when to add two more raxes. At what moment should I add those and any tips on how to hold a blink stalker all in on maps where there's a lot of blink area?

As soon as possible, so it completely depends on how the defence of his attack went (and also how much he commits; ideally you want a SCV on the map so you can check his natural to see if he's not simply going "Blink Stalker expand" building a Nexus around ~7' - 7'45). EB after those extra rax. For the rest, just watch the examples of VODs in the OP.



On April 27 2013 06:42 A Wild Sosd wrote:
When pushing across the map at 10 minutes in TvP should I rally my rax to my army or just leave them rallied to my natural? Because I feel like im missing a lot of chances to kill a toss because half of my stuff is at home

You can rally on the map, yes.



On April 28 2013 09:25 galzohar wrote:
Actually in general I was always wondering how to properly use my rally point. As in, when would you keep your rally in your base and when would you put it on the front lines? And when placing your rally at the front lines, how far forward do you place it and how do you "catch" the rallied units to add them to the control group to avoid having them run to their deaths?

Also, when using all production buildings on a single hotkey, is there any efficient way to make them rally to different locations? Or do you usually just keep them rallied to the same spot?

Some pro tips about rally point management would be awesome, as it's something I haven't seen discussed at all anywhere.

You can rally on the map when you have map control, i. e. most of the time in TvP (assuming you go bio) and TvT when playing bio or biomech vs mech. With TvZ it depends on your game plan, if you play a "bio stream" strategy (trying to choke Zerg with 4M until someone falters, late fourth), then you rally on the map.

In all match-ups it also depends on the situation, if you're winning or you have the advantage you generally want to rally so you can maintain the pressure and finish him. It's less true with mech though.



On April 28 2013 18:47 Emporium wrote:
I was reading the OP, and saw the part about the mines not detonating on changelings, this is incorrect.

Mines will detonate on changelings if you have vision of them as a changeling, when they come into the radius of a mine, then it will detonate, but if you dont have vision of it as a changeling when it comes into the radius of a mine, and has already changed to the pseudomarine then it won't detonate.

I had a guy baneling bust me, where he used the changelings to detonate the mines...pretty irritating.

Yes, I meant morphed Changelings. Added the precision in the OP, thanks.



On April 28 2013 20:08 DifuntO wrote:
So i go for a 3rd CC/double e-bay. I see the zerg going for a very early infestation pit/hive.

How should i react?

Just kill him before his Hive units. Whether he goes Brood lords or Ultralisks, you should be able to win with a 2/2 timing, especially if he tries to cheat staying on lings/infests (in which case you can get a few Hellbats).
netherDrake
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Singapore1831 Posts
April 28 2013 13:59 GMT
#1248
TheDwf - do you know of an optimal way to deal with the zealot/MSC/stalker poke if i open 12/12 reaper expand into reactor rax and then fact?

I've been trying variations (like not walling off so depots aren't exposed, bunker on high/low ground, cc on high/low ground, taking off gas for awhile to get a quicker bunker) and it seems that the best option would be to not wall off, and expand on the high ground. Once my SCV scout sees the zealot walking over, I take out of gas and get a quick bunker (before 4 mins).

It then depends on my initial reaper and making sure that i keep at least one of the 3 initial units in his main to at least delay till 4 marines (so I avoid the situation where there are 2 marines in the bunker and he just runs by).

It seems quite silly to SCV scout if you go 12 reaper, but it seems like the only way I can scout a quick zealot and react to it. Also, I have the option delay the expo with an ebay block with the scv out on the map.

Your thoughts on this?

I've also seen some terrans make a bunker at the bottom of their ramp and wall off at the top which should protect depots on the high ground, but I haven't tried that yet.

Thanks.

SC2 player for Flash eSports. twitch.tv/nether_drake, https://twitter.com/bryan_sum, http://www.facebook.com/pages/Bryan-Drake-Sum/468389706519567
TheDwf
Profile Joined November 2011
France19747 Posts
April 28 2013 14:18 GMT
#1249
On April 28 2013 22:59 netherDrake wrote:
TheDwf - do you know of an optimal way to deal with the zealot/MSC/stalker poke if i open 12/12 reaper expand into reactor rax and then fact?

I've been trying variations (like not walling off so depots aren't exposed, bunker on high/low ground, cc on high/low ground, taking off gas for awhile to get a quicker bunker) and it seems that the best option would be to not wall off, and expand on the high ground.

Yep, this is what I do too. No wall, CC and bunk on high ground (if Protoss makes a Zealot), show Reaper so that Protoss leaves one unit behind.

It seems quite silly to SCV scout if you go 12 reaper, but it seems like the only way I can scout a quick zealot and react to it. Also, I have the option delay the expo with an ebay block with the scv out on the map.

Yes, and anyway it's mandatory if you want to be completely safe against supersonic proxy Oracles (i. e. Stargate before Stalker/Warpgate). If the SCV scouts dual gas + 2 Pylons + delayed stalk/warp, you can immediately search in the vicinity with your Reaper and attack the proxied pylon with it while preparing a Bunker near your mineral line.
Thor.Rush
Profile Joined April 2011
Sweden702 Posts
April 28 2013 15:32 GMT
#1250
If you're worried about getting your depot wall picked off, you can put bunker at the natural. The reaper should definitely delay his push, and also the toss will probably think you're going to expand. I certainly would never scout with an scv on a 2 player map. The reaper gets there fast enough.
| SaSe | Naniwa |Stephano | LucifroN | Mvp | MarineKing | ByuN | Polt | MC | Parting |
FirstGear
Profile Joined June 2011
Australia185 Posts
April 28 2013 17:12 GMT
#1251
On April 28 2013 22:59 netherDrake wrote:
I've also seen some terrans make a bunker at the bottom of their ramp and wall off at the top which should protect depots on the high ground, but I haven't tried that yet.


If a supply depot is part of the wall, always put it on the side furthest away from where stalkers are likely to attack. I always wall with a sup depo and 2 raxes, but I usually open cc first so its totally different circumstances anyway. The nice thing about naked raxes as part of the wall is if they get harassed too much you just fly them away.
NotTrulyEvil
Profile Joined April 2013
22 Posts
April 28 2013 21:08 GMT
#1252
Hi, If anyone here got time I'd be very grateful if you could take a look at this replay and point out my mistakes and what I should improve (I can't really figure it out on my own this time).

TvZ Replay

It feels like I play pretty good without any major mistakes, but somewhere down the road I do a mistake or don't play good enough...

Well, thanks in advance
Level10Peon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States59 Posts
April 28 2013 23:22 GMT
#1253
Simple question: what do I do if I am reaper expanding in TvZ and I scout a 1-base baneling bust ahead of time?
CrazyFabiO
Profile Joined April 2011
Germany28 Posts
April 29 2013 02:06 GMT
#1254
On April 29 2013 06:08 NotTrulyEvil wrote:
Hi, If anyone here got time I'd be very grateful if you could take a look at this replay and point out my mistakes and what I should improve (I can't really figure it out on my own this time).

TvZ Replay

It feels like I play pretty good without any major mistakes, but somewhere down the road I do a mistake or don't play good enough...

Well, thanks in advance

1. Optimize your Build: Why did you have so much spare minerals directly after your 1 rax expo?
2. You did no dualpronged attacks (it almost seem lihe you are scared of the enemies mineral line :-))
KeyboardCat
Profile Joined April 2013
1 Post
Last Edited: 2013-04-29 08:28:52
April 29 2013 08:21 GMT
#1255
On April 29 2013 06:08 NotTrulyEvil wrote:
Hi, If anyone here got time I'd be very grateful if you could take a look at this replay and point out my mistakes and what I should improve (I can't really figure it out on my own this time).

TvZ Replay

It feels like I play pretty good without any major mistakes, but somewhere down the road I do a mistake or don't play good enough...

Well, thanks in advance


You really need to take a closer look at your game. Youre pretty far off NOT making major mistakes. Some are quite basic, stacking up and thus are leading to further problems that really hurt your game. A lot.


1. Economy/Production

- Add more Barracks for Bio and do it earlier. 8 are ok, up to 12 in the late game arent rare.
- Build CCs where they matter.
- Add Planetaries where they MATTER, if at all.
- Expand early, expand in time
- three Armories are one too much.
- Distribute SCVs evenly among the CCs for more efficiency.

2. Scouting/Scanning

- Scout More.
- Use single SCVs/Marines to look for Expansions
- Scan areas you cant simply walk into. (in this game : Main/Nat --> Tech)
- Scan those Areas frequently

3. Control Groups

F2 is NOT how you control your Army
Production Buildings are NOT to be on ONE Key

4. Use your units efficiently.

- dont put tanks too close to bunkers
- keep tank losses minimal
- MMM should bubble wrap your tanks

if you want it in detail, open the spoiler tag. it is a lot of text with lots of information.

+ Show Spoiler +
Lets go into detail :

1.

at some point your third CC no longer builds SCVs thus your early third never mattered. those 6 Scvs would have been better off mining minerals instead of gas at that time.

you should distribute your scvs among CCs to have the optimal income - not to have scvs that are innefficient. i have to look it up but i thought 16 is optimal, the 17th worker is contributing less already. you could have avoided that because you had enough expanions or the possibility to get them easily.

this leads to one of the major mistakes at 18:20 and contributed to your slow, slow death.

You have 73 SCVs, 28 in your main, 21 at your nat and 3 (not counting those at the gas)at your third. Your Main will be emptied, your Nat will soon be emptied and your weak third will be shut down by lings. your main already hat way too many scs as only few mineral nodes were present.

at this time your income has taken a heavy blow - but it could easily have been avoided.

because from 18:20 to 25:20, thats SEVEN! minutes you seemed to consciously ignore that you had an orbital command right next to an easily defendable expansion. after the ling runby at the bottom right expo you fly the 3rd CC to the expansion that the useless CC could have taken 3-4 minutes before. in the end for some time 39 SCVs mine at that expansion until at 25:20 the first ever SCVs touch the useless CC at the top middle expo.

3 of your planetaries were downright useless because 1 only watched how the same lings that stopped your third interrupted mining at your fourth and later two and a half planetaries were watching how another ling runby interrupted that same expo again, killing some scvs.
build them right next to a mineral line or right next to an orbital to secure remote expansions. dont place them randomly around the map where they wont have any effect at all.

2.

Use single SCVs/Marines to scout for Expansions.
Dont waste 50 Energy on areas you could have seen with SCVs/Marines, instead use it for areas you cant walk into - in this case his main/natural.
If you had Scanned more frequently you would have seen his air tech.

3.

F2 is NOT how to command armies. it is a tool you use to create Control Groups. You'll need Control Groups to command your army efficiently.

This is StarCraft II, you play Terran and Tanks are serious business.
Sieging Tanks even a second too late can make or break an engagement.

One does not simply F2 Attack-Walk into Mordor.

Dont save ALL your production buildings on the same hotkey. Tabbing through them to get what you NEED is slow and inefficient. Barracks, Factories and Starports are to be on seperate ones.
"But KeyboardCat!", you say in a whiny voice to your computer screen as you read this post, "my fingers are too short to reach farther than 5 or 6!".
Your hand is attached to an arm, use the whole thing.

4.

Your unit composition was okay, good job on that one until the 25 minute mark.. But you did some things that were painful to watch.

Put tanks in the sweet spot were they cover your bunkers nicely but cant be targeted easily. too close and theyll get down fast - too far away and they wont target the enemy units. yours were, for the most part - too close to the bunkers and/or in bad positions.
apply the same to fights outside your base/natural. dont put your MMM too close to the tanks, but also not too far away.
you want him to suffer for wrecking your tanks. achieve this by proper positioning of your MMM.

You must keep your tank losses minimal. it might seem that i overemphasize the importance of tanks so read carefully because you mustnt get this wrong

you cannot afford to waste tanks against pure Hydra/Roach. Once you get a critical mass of Tanks Hydras and Roaches are worthless and if he sticks to it you will crush him. even if he adds some ultralisks - if you saved your tanks up to that point he wont have an easy game.
This does not mean that they should be what your army mostly consists off(you will become very vulnerable!) - Marines, Marauders and to some degree Medivacs are replaced quickly - Tanks on the other hand are not.

additional :

The fights at 18:00 and 20:00 show some bad positioning - you lost the second one because you did poorly in the first and repeated mistakes from it.
You decide to pursue the swarm lords, roaches easily run by your MMM and kill off 3 tanks, also one medivac was full with units so you lost more than necessary and thus had less units for the second fight.
the second fight happens at the lower and middle left expo.
the first hatch is easily killed and the second one falls too - so does your army.
it would have been better if the tanks had at least been sieged BEFORE the Z ran into you and your MMM were positioned in a way he could attack from the front, push into the right and with that edge kill off the tanks. he then slaughters your units with minimal losses.

In this case you should have sieged the tanks on the high ground(not too close to the edge though) run into the hatch with stimmed MM, kill it and retreat to the tanks/close to the ramp again. if he then took you head on you would have traded a lot better or even won that fight. even if not you could have just retreated with those medivacs or he wouldnt have come after you at all.

because you didnt bother to scout/scan for tech you couldnt see his air tech in time - it would have been easier if you had seen it. a good reaction would have been to build a second starport and get out quite some vikings - your ground army can deal with his ground units quite well. afterwards just dance a little to kill off his corrupters/snipe brood lords and the game would have been yours.

Scila
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada1849 Posts
April 29 2013 08:29 GMT
#1256
Is biomine the new standard strat in TvZ? Is it still a good idea to get 4 hellions before making nothing but mines?

What is the standard build in TvP? What are some of the most popular new TvP builds (that involve the 2 new units) ?

Looking for some new refreshing ways to play instead of just massing bio like WoL.
All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.
FetTerBender
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Germany1393 Posts
April 29 2013 09:50 GMT
#1257
On April 29 2013 17:29 Scila wrote:
Is biomine the new standard strat in TvZ? Is it still a good idea to get 4 hellions before making nothing but mines?

What is the standard build in TvP? What are some of the most popular new TvP builds (that involve the 2 new units) ?

Looking for some new refreshing ways to play instead of just massing bio like WoL.


To the hellions: I feel more comfy with 6 of em, to be able to break lots of speedlings / surrounds with ease. Additionally, your harass becomes a chunk more danerous.


There's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.
A Wild Sosd
Profile Joined September 2012
Australia421 Posts
April 29 2013 10:36 GMT
#1258
I have been getting a single siege tank in TvZ before I start hellions and after my reapers. I find it is helping greatly with any early roach pushes that happen alot when now that zergs have started trying to adapt to the reaper hellion harass. It also gives you alot of safety in that window of time that you dont have many units besides your reapers and hellions. Just an idea I thought I would share

On top of this can anyone go over this TvP replay for me. http://drop.sc/328987
I have been doing an opening that I saw Byun do on his stream, Is there anything I could do better regarding the opening?
In this game I though I delayed his tech pretty well and I held him to 2 bases for along time which I admit I didn't capitalize on as well as I should have. I was also supply blocked a few times and it took me a while to scout his colossus tech. I got a huge upgrade lead after sniping his forge but my army still seemed to melt away in the final engagement. Any help?
Bomber | TaeJa | Life | Scarlett I Twitter: @SosdSC2
Marathi
Profile Joined July 2011
298 Posts
April 29 2013 11:29 GMT
#1259
On April 29 2013 17:29 Scila wrote:
Is biomine the new standard strat in TvZ? Is it still a good idea to get 4 hellions before making nothing but mines?

What is the standard build in TvP? What are some of the most popular new TvP builds (that involve the 2 new units) ?

Looking for some new refreshing ways to play instead of just massing bio like WoL.


Should really check the OP where it answers a lot of these questions.

2-6 hellions in TvZ depending on scouting information you get and whether you can be aggressive with them.

There are a couple of openers that include widow mines in the OP the 2 mine drop is popular or a slightly more aggressive version where you include 4 marines too.

Hellbats are more situational in TvP being a good addition vs zealots, but they're quite clunky to play with alongside bio due to their slow movement speed. Though there are some aggressive drop openings you could try.
eSports tees designed by me - http://tinyurl.com/bqmexd9
govie
Profile Blog Joined November 2012
9334 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-29 11:33:05
April 29 2013 11:32 GMT
#1260
On April 29 2013 19:36 A Wild Sosd wrote:
I have been getting a single siege tank in TvZ before I start hellions and after my reapers. I find it is helping greatly with any early roach pushes that happen alot when now that zergs have started trying to adapt to the reaper hellion harass. It also gives you alot of safety in that window of time that you dont have many units besides your reapers and hellions. Just an idea I thought I would share


WCS EU, player Happy did same thing with the tank first out of the factory after he was 0-1 behind against a zerg in his group. Its very safe, the gain u get in safety does mean u cant be that aggresive early on (it stalls hellions and descent dropplay) and have less mapcontrol/scouting. Next to that the zerg can macro up early without any real danger. Yes, i also believe its ok to open with a tank, but u have to take into consideration all the cons to this opening aswell (as it has alot).

The two NBA teams in states with legal weed are called the Nuggets and the Blazers...
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