EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 64
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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Hot_Ice
139 Posts
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xongnox
540 Posts
Really supersonic proxy oracles (Mana, Feast, ...) are on a proxy 2nd Pylon (and hit at something like 5:30 in scv line :/ ). Really utterly strong... When i'm going for a reaper opening without SCV scout on a good oracle-shit map, i simply begin by checking those 2nd pylon startage proxy locations before going in toss's main. Then trying to survive :D | ||
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NotTrulyEvil
22 Posts
 I will really have your advice and tips in my mind in future games.KeyboardCat, thank you so much for writing so detailed You even made me laugh at some points :D | ||
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NYghost
66 Posts
Now its Tank Marine Medivac...What changed? In TvP or TvZ I can make more units and 1A...why can't I do this in TvT it is so fustrating when my macro is better. In most of my games I have 10 harvester lead on my opponent and a 30 supply lead. Meaning I am better at producing units and expanding than them. Why can't I 1A into their seige line and kill them? Is it that this matchup I need to get even more barracks so that i can replenish my marines faster when i purposely trade inefficiently? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:16 NYghost wrote: It used to be Tank Viking with a sprinkle of marines Err... Perhaps in WoL beta, but Marines/Tanks/Medivacs is around here for years. In TvP or TvZ I can make more units and 1A... Not really. Micro is still needed (well, perhaps not if you have +50-60 supply) because painful things happen when you 1a without any micro against AoE (Banelings, Colossi, Storm). why can't I do this in TvT it is so fustrating when my macro is better. In most of my games I have 10 harvester lead on my opponent and a 30 supply lead. Meaning I am better at producing units and expanding than them. Why can't I 1A into their seige line and kill them? Is it that this matchup I need to get even more barracks so that i can replenish my marines faster when i purposely trade inefficiently? I suppose you never played BW, or perhaps any RTS before? Otherwise you would be familiar with the notion of defender's advantage. To be blunt—you're being lazy and impatient. Learn to out-maneuver your opponent (which is easy when you have a commanding lead) instead of ramming your head into the wall until it collapses; or learn to form concaves and micro Marine lines, because you can charge light/moderate Tank lines if you have a moderate/heavy supply advantage. | ||
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NYghost
66 Posts
Can you explain defenders advantage besides being on top ramp for vision(less room to attack), reinforce quicker? This is what continues to happen to me...I have more supply, they are NOT on the ramp, they are at the bottom of the ramp and I A move into a seige line and lose even with better mechanics...ie more supply, more scvs, 1/1 vs 0/0 upgrades. Against Toss the only micro i do is tell my vikings to FF colossus at a time and against storm i just dance around without stim to try to bait a storm and then stim and 1A Against Zerg I pre split and then 1A So if i have 150 supply vs 100 supply I can 1A into seige line? I used to use Tank viking and creep up with my tanks in WoL for the first year it was out...in plat/diamond | ||
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Varyak
Germany14 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:54 NYghost wrote: So if i have 150 supply vs 100 supply I can 1A into seige line? No! I.e. a protos player would not 1A a pure colossi-army into vikings because thats stupid Same goes for bio into sieged tanks, tanks are a direct counter to bio. This means u have to outplay your opponent or counter his siegetanks with a certain composition.You are allready outplaying zerg and protos so... practise makes perfect in tvt. Small addition/edit : Tankscompositions have weaknesses : 1. They are immobile --> So drops could be effective 2. Tanks are bad against any airunit --> U could abuse that with airunits or drops on the tanks. 3. Unsieged they suck against bio --> Try to get an unsiege and then stim in there 4. They are an AoE unit --> When playing pure-bio and u increase ur attackarea, they become less effective. This means that when u engage sieged tanks or a mechplayers composition, ur best shot is attacking them from different directions at the same time if possible. If it's not possible to attack from multiple locations at the same time, then wel... maybe u should not attack at all with pure bio (and certainly not doing 1A into a choke or from 1 direction against sieged tanks because thats just plain stupid. But still, purebio+1A has a big disadvantage against any tankscomposition without some form of micro.. | ||
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NYghost
66 Posts
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govie
9334 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:00 NYghost wrote: Hmm I guess Macro isn't enough to get your to diamond i guess...so much for the people saying Macro gets you to diamond... TheDwF was right. U are ignorant. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:00 NYghost wrote: Hmm I guess Macro isn't enough to get your to diamond i guess...so much for the people saying Macro gets you to diamond... I want to bet with you that I can make master on your account, with pure marines (stim + combat shield), pure 1a (no micro), and pure macro. | ||
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NYghost
66 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:24 NYghost wrote: snowbear would that be with an early push? most likely i assume No, I will go 1rax FE into mass marines, even with third, and attack when I hit 150 supply, or 200 supply. No upgrades, no allins, mass expo's. | ||
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NYghost
66 Posts
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:32 NYghost wrote: really snowbear no upgrades???!!! ...well you're korean you don't count... I'm actually Belgian (Belgium). And yes, no upgrades, just macro, and pure 1a + stim | ||
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Sissors
1395 Posts
On April 30 2013 03:00 NYghost wrote: Hmm I guess Macro isn't enough to get your to diamond i guess...so much for the people saying Macro gets you to diamond... Those claims are also ridiculous. I am sure if you got GM level macro you can get to diamond with only focussing on macro, but how is that better than only cannon-rushing your opponent? Also with that you can get to diamond. And also with only micro (well you need to make some units, but lets say only blink stalker all-ins) you can get to diamond, if it simply is enough better than your opponents. And yeah in general frontal assaults on larger tank lines is just plain suicidal, no matter how much your macro advantage is. Simply because at that point your opponent got an enormous advantage in the common-sense department (also called decission making and strategy). This game isn't only about macro, it is one aspect, a fairly important one, but definately not the only one. And yeah I also tried that idea once of only macro'ing, it ended horrible by suiciding marines into siege lines. Add one game where banelings killed them all and I filed that idea in the 'bad ideas' folder. @Snowbear, so that is including the auto-losses you will get against every 6-pool, every cannon rush, every early terran agression, every banshee/dt play? | ||
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AKomrade
United States582 Posts
On April 30 2013 01:54 NYghost wrote: I did play BW... Can you explain defenders advantage besides being on top ramp for vision(less room to attack), reinforce quicker? This is what continues to happen to me...I have more supply, they are NOT on the ramp, they are at the bottom of the ramp and I A move into a seige line and lose even with better mechanics...ie more supply, more scvs, 1/1 vs 0/0 upgrades. Against Toss the only micro i do is tell my vikings to FF colossus at a time and against storm i just dance around without stim to try to bait a storm and then stim and 1A Against Zerg I pre split and then 1A So if i have 150 supply vs 100 supply I can 1A into seige line? I used to use Tank viking and creep up with my tanks in WoL for the first year it was out...in plat/diamond First, plat/diamond in WoL beta is barely Gold level play in HoTS. The pro level now vs. then is basically low masters, so unless you were placing top 10 at MLG Dallas, lose the attitude. Second, you NEVER 1A into siege lines. If you are going to attack the line, you must spread your units or attack from two different directions. If you can't handle this, force your opponent to move out of position or bait him out by backing off. Third, if you're 1Aing against Z and P, that's probably why you can't advance any further than you have now. You can make up for a poor matchup with stronger ones. If you want to improve, I'd suggest either getting replays from 1.5.3+ and studying them (HoTS hasn't drastically changed the Tv "metas" much) or watching pro streams. DeMuslim is on right now, if you want. | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
On April 30 2013 05:04 Sissors wrote: Those claims are also ridiculous. I am sure if you got GM level macro you can get to diamond with only focussing on macro, but how is that better than only cannon-rushing your opponent? Also with that you can get to diamond. And also with only micro (well you need to make some units, but lets say only blink stalker all-ins) you can get to diamond, if it simply is enough better than your opponents. And yeah in general frontal assaults on larger tank lines is just plain suicidal, no matter how much your macro advantage is. Simply because at that point your opponent got an enormous advantage in the common-sense department (also called decission making and strategy). This game isn't only about macro, it is one aspect, a fairly important one, but definately not the only one. OK, let me explain some key, core concepts of Starcraft 2 to you. When you do a build, if you want to do it efficiently and lay out your timings correctly then you must execute it well. I'd say, if we split the key concepts of Starcraft 2 into 3 or 4 headings, that execution would come under macro. This automatically disproves your point about being able to get to diamond purely with micro, because if you are not executing the builds properly they can hit minutes late, and even with Yonghwa level blink stalker micro you would not be able to win. Secondly, Starcraft 2 is essentially a game of numbers and mistakes. Can you take advantage of your opponents mistakes, which at lower levels will often be in the numbers department. These numbers could be resource collection rate, harvester count, production facility count and so on. I'm sure you get the picture. If you can get your various numbers higher than your opponent's, that gives you a wider margin of error and allows you to make more mistakes. The best way to get these numbers higher is through macro. Micro is great and all, however if your opponent has superior numbers to you then unless you can outmicro him extremely hard, you will in the end lose. Whereas if you outmacro your opponent extremely hard, your margin for error just increases and increases. That makes it hard for your opponents to abuse your mistakes (which is how you win Starcraft games), and eventually you should win the game. Your points about decision making are null and void. You improve decision making and game sense by watching professional games and FPVODs, and playing a ton. There is no other way, as the players that play this game all day every day for a living by this point have a pretty damn good idea of when to run into siege tanks. Obviously they don't get it right 100% of the time, but this brings me back to a previous point nicely. When they don't get it right, it's because they didn't have the numbers advantage they thought they had, and made a mistake that was bigger than the margin of error that had been allocated to them due to their numbers advantage. It can be a pretty hard concept to get your head round, especially when I explain it in such a rambly and unlinked way, but (at least in my opinion) the best way to improve is to learn when your opponent has overestimated how many mistakes he can make, and abuse the hell out of them, and improve your core 'numbers'. | ||
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NYghost
66 Posts
and i understand and agree plat diamond in WOL = Goldish 2nd...yea i know this but i was complaining about why i cant 1a into seige lines when i have more units and better mechanics than my opponent... 3rd ill let you know how i progress @sissors...people kept telling me macro macro macro and you will get to diamond...and now i am pretty sure i am outmacroing my opponent with more units, more buildings, more expo, better defence (3/3 times they tried to do a drop/banshee and failed horribly cause i spammed turrets like no other) while they have 0 turrets but still cannot beat their siege line WITHOUT dropping or multi pronged attacks... | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
On April 30 2013 05:04 Sissors wrote: @Snowbear, so that is including the auto-losses you will get against every 6-pool, every cannon rush, every early terran agression, every banshee/dt play? Why would I die against 6pool, cannonrush, terran agression and banshee/dt play? They are all perfectly defend-able with marines and turrets. I almost never lose against these builds with 1rax FE. It's all about scouting . And ofcourse I will lose some games, but losing games doesn't prevent me to get into master league.Do you guys want me to do this experiment? If yes, then I will do it this weekend. I will use a guestpass | ||
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