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On April 29 2013 19:36 A Wild Sosd wrote: On top of this can anyone go over this TvP replay for me. http://drop.sc/328987 I have been doing an opening that I saw Byun do on his stream, Is there anything I could do better regarding the opening? In this game I though I delayed his tech pretty well and I held him to 2 bases for along time which I admit I didn't capitalize on as well as I should have. I was also supply blocked a few times and it took me a while to scout his colossus tech. I got a huge upgrade lead after sniping his forge but my army still seemed to melt away in the final engagement. Any help?
On April 30 2013 05:37 Sissors wrote: First of all I think you are really stretching the meaning of 'macro' when you put blindly following a BO as macro. But okay. Next you make your second mistake. If your blink stalker attack hits a minute late you can still no problem get to diamond, if your micro (and multitasking helps to) is sick enough.
Neither your micro nor your multitask can be "sick" if you're below Diamond. Your "compensation theory" only works on paper; in practice you never see a Gold player with "Master micro". The skill sets of a player can of course vary from one area to another, but still they're linked together and thus all revolve around a centre of gravity, making it impossible to have a player with "GM decision making" if he has "Diamond macro". If your Blink Stalker attack hits one minut late, I guarantee it won't be counterbalanced by "sick micro" because if the player had this micro, his Blink Stalker attack would never hit one minute late in the first place.
You completely missed the point.
While it is unlikely that you got very good micro if your macro for example is horrible, it isn't impossible. But you should have read the post I reacted on before missing my point: That post claimed you could compensate bad micro/decission making/etc with good macro and still get to diamond (or whatever league). So I reacted that you can do the same if you got good micro and bad macro.
And btw for me personally, there will be enough (high) diamonds who got better macro than me, and regarding micro, I think it tells you enough I play terran while pretty much never using control groups for my army (I just can't get used to it). Considering I am still masters something must be compensating for that. I won't say my decission making is at GM level, but it must certainly be above average for my rank.
Why is it that everyone wants mech only to be viable?
For me personally because mech requires less micro and more from other skills .
But in general I am a favor of mech being viable (and also bio-mech) because it adds some real variety to the game, with wildly different tech paths being realistic. For zerg this is now also the case (well not yet perfectly balanced, but imo getting there), with roach-hydra and ling based compositions both being used. Only for toss there is only one deathball really to make. Sure they can decide if they add colossi first or HT first, but that doesn't really change that much to the deathball.
playing aggressive with reaper, repaer/hellion openings is the only way to play tvz right now? is there any safe openings against zerg focused more on macro and a bit less aggression without falling too behind?
On April 30 2013 19:58 Rider517 wrote: playing aggressive with reaper, repaer/hellion openings is the only way to play tvz right now? is there any safe openings against zerg focused more on macro and a bit less aggression without falling too behind?
you can play No Gas FE into Reactor Fac FE and add 2 Ebays before going into Bio+Mech.
A lot of pro's use this greedy style even with mech they can play extremly greedy because widow mine+tanks keep them save.
On April 30 2013 19:58 Rider517 wrote: playing aggressive with reaper, repaer/hellion openings is the only way to play tvz right now? is there any safe openings against zerg focused more on macro and a bit less aggression without falling too behind?
you can play No Gas FE into Reactor Fac FE and add 2 Ebays before going into Bio+Mech.
A lot of pro's use this greedy style even with mech they can play extremly greedy because widow mine+tanks keep them save.
is this build with fast 3rd as the reaper/hellion one? i thought it was outdated
On April 30 2013 19:58 Rider517 wrote: playing aggressive with reaper, repaer/hellion openings is the only way to play tvz right now? is there any safe openings against zerg focused more on macro and a bit less aggression without falling too behind?
Just play reactor fact into triple CC (3 CCs total). You use your hellions for map awareness or aggression if optional. Then mines to help with defence whilst you tech into bio or mech. Open with reaper to scout don't need to be balls to the wall aggressive with those units.
I think you want to be a bit aggressive regardless in TvZ early because a zerg on 3 bases who can freely make drones is a scary thing to face in mid-late game
Its not a pro build or anything but im going 3cc with 1 gas after 2nd cc and 1 gas after 3rd then spending my first 250 gas on a tank to defend any aggression.
Then basically just macroing up for a 2-2 push with marine tank.
You could try it if you wanna play macro. Seems safe so far.
I'm trying to make the bridge to masters, but I'm loosing a lot. I think my errors are my bad descision making and dealing with fights, but I'm not sure. I struggle both in TvP and TvT but I'm doing fine in TvZ.
Is it possible to play passively against zerg and win as terran?
I am a plat player who prefers defensive play, and it seems that whenever I do that against zerg, even when I out macro them, I am constantly one step behind them. I mass up bio, they build ultras, I go sky-terran, suddenly they have 20 corrupters, despite my (often) higher supply count. I feel like if I don't do serious damage to the zerg's tech or economy by the late mid-game, I'm screwed.
Are drops and mid-game aggression necessary? Is defensive play viable?
On April 30 2013 19:58 Rider517 wrote: playing aggressive with reaper, repaer/hellion openings is the only way to play tvz right now? is there any safe openings against zerg focused more on macro and a bit less aggression without falling too behind?
Just play reactor fact into triple CC (3 CCs total). You use your hellions for map awareness or aggression if optional. Then mines to help with defence whilst you tech into bio or mech. Open with reaper to scout don't need to be balls to the wall aggressive with those units.
I think you want to be a bit aggressive regardless in TvZ early because a zerg on 3 bases who can freely make drones is a scary thing to face in mid-late game
I've been doing the Flash CC first opening in the OP, then transferring into 3rax, fact, SP with one ebay and then constantly trying to pressure the zerg. You NEED to abuse the midgame as much as possible, because ultralisks are insanely effective now and simply giving zerg that tech is playing with napalm.
On May 01 2013 01:20 Level10Peon wrote: Is it possible to play passively against zerg and win?
I am a plat player who prefers defensive play, and it seems that whenever I do that against zerg, even when I out macro them, I am constantly one step behind them. I mass up bio, they build ultras, I go sky-terran, suddenly they have 20 corrupters, despite my (often) higher supply count. I feel like if I don't do serious damage to the zerg's tech or economy by the late mid-game, I'm screwed.
Are drops and mid-game aggression necessary? Is defensive play viable?
http://drop.sc/325737 A game of mine where i just absolutely do nothing except some hellbat drop, then i macro, go out, a-move and win. I'm plat but i have beaten some diamond with it and most plat i encountered, it's just mass hellbat/thor/raven.
On May 01 2013 01:20 Level10Peon wrote: Is it possible to play passively against zerg and win?
I am a plat player who prefers defensive play, and it seems that whenever I do that against zerg, even when I out macro them, I am constantly one step behind them. I mass up bio, they build ultras, I go sky-terran, suddenly they have 20 corrupters, despite my (often) higher supply count. I feel like if I don't do serious damage to the zerg's tech or economy by the late mid-game, I'm screwed.
Are drops and mid-game aggression necessary? Is defensive play viable?
Check the games Flash played against Soulkey in GSL. Tricky thing is being ontop of everything macro wise. I wouldn't advice it. I recall Artosis saying in GSL that back in bw he was using Fantasy builds, because if he wanted to play like Flash, he just had to play perfect.
Since HOTS came out I never really thought out build orders for each race. I have just been messing around. I want to get rid of this inefficient way of playing that you get when you are just freestyling away. So I am looking for a build order vs. each race. Could someone help me with this?
My ''taste'' in build orders: TvZ I've been doing gasless cc -> widow mines -> 2x ebay -> third -> power up and push with a ton of widow mines. TvP I am pretty clueless, I figure gasless fe isn't viable I loved that build in WoL TvT I've been going reaper expand.. but also feeling pretty clueless.
Does anyone have notes on builds similar to these available that I can borrow?
I'm still confused about upgrade timings. I've seen a MKP build that he goes +1 before starting the factory and he gets a big ball army with medivacs by 10 minutes.
Whats the difference between MKP's build and the standard TvP?
On May 01 2013 10:03 DW-Unrec wrote: I'm still confused about upgrade timings. I've seen a MKP build that he goes +1 before starting the factory and he gets a big ball army with medivacs by 10 minutes.
Whats the difference between MKP's build and the standard TvP?
The difference is the CC first and no supply blocks. I noticed MKP doing this build quite a while ago. It's become my new standard in TvP. You build the E-Bay around the time the tech-lab is about halfway done and get the early +1. I also get the third refinery just a bit earlier too to make up for the gas you spend on the +1. That way you don't delay the factory too much. I wouldn't recommend it on smaller 2 player maps unless you don't mind occasional losses to random MSC/Stalker pokes. Low ground CC first vs Protoss is pretty risky but it's MKP's build after all, he's as greedy as it gets.
Since HOTS came out I never really thought out build orders for each race. I have just been messing around. I want to get rid of this inefficient way of playing that you get when you are just freestyling away. So I am looking for a build order vs. each race. Could someone help me with this?
My ''taste'' in build orders: TvZ I've been doing gasless cc -> widow mines -> 2x ebay -> third -> power up and push with a ton of widow mines. TvP I am pretty clueless, I figure gasless fe isn't viable I loved that build in WoL TvT I've been going reaper expand.. but also feeling pretty clueless.
Does anyone have notes on builds similar to these available that I can borrow?
The difference is the CC first and no supply blocks. I noticed MKP doing this build quite a while ago. It's become my new standard in TvP. You build the E-Bay around the time the tech-lab is about halfway done and get the early +1. I also get the third refinery just a bit earlier too to make up for the gas you spend on the +1. That way you don't delay the factory too much. I wouldn't recommend it on smaller 2 player maps unless you don't mind occasional losses to random MSC/Stalker pokes. Low ground CC first vs Protoss is pretty risky but it's MKP's build after all, he's as greedy as it gets.
I think its actually quite safe (except versus proxy gates which I assume kills it but have never faced). I build the CC on the lowground (except in BoX series). In my experience the cc is alway finished before a zlot gets to my base. After 10 sup depot 14 cc 16 rax 17 rax, 19 double oc, depending on what I scout, I get a bunker and a marine straight away. Usually, the bunker is done before the zlot arrives, If not I maynard scvs (6 or so) and use scvs and a marine to kill the zlot, pulling back each weakened scv (whilst making sure the bunker finishes soon). This situation occurs incredibly rarely. I always wall off the ramp with the supply depot in the least likely spot to be harassed by the mothership/stalker combination. I also always finish the wall off with the 2 barracks, to prevent runbys. The 2 barracks can be flown away If too much harass happens to them. The wall off is also quick enough the zlot can't get into your main base despite ccing first on the lowground. The bunker means stalker pokes are completely shut down. You get early marines which deals well with the mothership core. If they attempt a bunker runby into you rnatural you can either escape safely up the ramp and wait for a bigger army, or trap them with scvs and fight with the marines. Stalkers do pretty badly against scvs when trapped. Zlots are slow enough they take reasonable damage during runbys and can be avoided due to their movespeed.
I supply depot scout on 4 player maps, or 14-15 scout on 2 player maps (looking for number of gas/gas timings, pylon locations, presence of a zlot before stalker and chrono usage). The scv needs to leave their base before 4.20. The most challenging things to defend include oracle harass, robo gateway all ins and blink stalker all ins. If the probe harass manages to delay your initial buildings significantly it can sometimes be very difficult to deal with follow up aggression (even gateay timings). If I scout double gas or suspect proxy, I will often skirt the map edges with 2 scvs (1 for each side). Usually one of these is the original scouting scv. 1 will then scout the protoss natural and if no proxy had been found then often get sacked into their main base. It doesn't matter if the scv doesnt see tech so long as you pay attention to how much gas you see. More stalkers or sentries means slower other tech, so the engi bay and turrets can be delayed. Im not afraid to throw down lots of extra bunkers if the protoss is being aggressive, since cc first has such a macro lead. If they are very aggressive on one base and I take no real damage, I like to go up to 5 rax 1 fac 1 port with the engibay before getting a 3rd so I can hit a strong timing. Raxes 4 and 5, the 3rd CC and the engibays can have their timing shuffled depending on what is scouted.
I feel like every time I have died cc firsting it has been due to clear mistakes I made. I used to worry most about oracles but because I am so paranoid of them (often leaving 6 marines in the main/on the ramp waiting for them) they actually don't seem to do very much damage. If you don't have enough marines to defend oracles in both the main and natural and are sure the toss isnt doing a frontal bust of some type, defend the main. Natural scvs can flee to the bunker on the ramp. Supply depots on the edge of the base where oracles are likely to come in also helps. One other cool thing is if you wall with the cc or cc in the main, you pool minerals slightly, due to the cc flying to the natural time. A neat side effect of this is the engi bay will be earlier, allowing turrets faster and you to be safer vs oracles (though admittedly you get fewer scvs). I really like the cc first build. I relatively consistantly max out by 14 minutes and when playing really well can have 2-2 upgrades at that stage too. I still lose vs toss, but thats because I can't control ghosts to save my life. I am yet to have a game where I felt I couldn't cc first.
Since HOTS came out I never really thought out build orders for each race. I have just been messing around. I want to get rid of this inefficient way of playing that you get when you are just freestyling away. So I am looking for a build order vs. each race. Could someone help me with this?
My ''taste'' in build orders: TvZ I've been doing gasless cc -> widow mines -> 2x ebay -> third -> power up and push with a ton of widow mines. TvP I am pretty clueless, I figure gasless fe isn't viable I loved that build in WoL TvT I've been going reaper expand.. but also feeling pretty clueless.
Does anyone have notes on builds similar to these available that I can borrow?
EPT
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