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On April 18 2013 12:00 Jazzman88 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 10:57 EZR-Aeron wrote:
I asked this before but didn't get a response:
Is the opening in TvP where T goes cc, 2x rax, 2x gas, e bays, more rax + fact, port becoming more popular? Or is the LG-IM mine drop opener still good to use? I don't know about popular, but check out this playlist of the MLG Winter Exhibitions and look at MarineKing's games, specifically against Seed and herO for examples of this CC-first style of play. Like any other style, it has specific things you must guard against in order to succeed (Oracle play and Immortal busts come to mind as large red flags for CC-first builds), but it's certainly not 'unsafe' in the way that blind 1-rax 3cc is. MarineKing went CC-first almost every game versus many Protoss players and he absolutely stomped the tournament, so there are definitely examples to follow.
You have got to bear in mind that MKP plays a coin flippy style of greed or aggression. Relying on his opponents knowledge of his style and his strong micro to pull builds like this off. Really not a build I would recommend for ladder, especially with the surge in popularity of 1base allins from Protoss too.
Big fan of MKP and his style just don't think this is well suited to ladder.
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On April 18 2013 19:25 mihajovics wrote:
Wouldn't ghosts in TvZ mech endgame be extremely useful? They never seem to appear in pro games (like today in GSL soulkey vs maru), even though they seem like a very good counter to vipers and infestors. Having only 1 barracks producing them doesn't seem like a huge investment (175 - 50 techlab + academy).
Siege Tanks > Infestors, Vikings > Vipers. Having air control with vikings and ravens is important so the zerg can't go mass corruptor broodlords. Ghosts may do well against vipers and infestors, but they can't deal with anything else (they were nerfed to hell in WoL). A few ghosts for nukes and maybe some EMPs/snipes would be great though.
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@Marathi The #1 ranked Korean GM ladder is a Terran from team Prime. It's possible that it's MKP (even if Byun denies it)!
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On April 18 2013 20:32 Thor.Rush wrote:
@Marathi The #1 ranked Korean GM ladder is a Terran from team Prime. It's possible that it's MKP (even if Byun denies it)!
I thought its Maru
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I doubt Maru would be #1 and I don't think the #1 ranked is going mech in TvZ if you check the match history. I could be wrong.
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Maru is #1 on KR GM ladder, I remember it's been mentioned a few times.
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I'm aware most think it's Maru, but I'm not aware that it has been proven yet.
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On April 18 2013 20:28 Thor.Rush wrote:
[...] A few ghosts for nukes and maybe some EMPs/snipes would be great though.
I'm not thinking mass ghosts, just maybe 3-4. Getting 4 ghosts would be a total investment of
- techlab 25 - 25
- ghost academy 150 - 25
- 4 ghost 800 - 400
total: 975 - 450
If anything this is mineral heavy and it is in fact more expensive per supply than anything else which you would get anyway (like battlecruiser + viking, 3 siegetanks, etc...)
EMP's range is 10, equal to the fungal and the viper's abduct has only 9 range. Oh, and EMP's projectile speed I think is faster than fungal's.
I understand you would need extremely good control, but these guys are top korean pros.
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anyone have flash's tvz build order that he was doing in the gsl just now?
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In endgame tvt, split map, with nearly a complete air composition how many Ravens is to much? I got my 5th and 6th bases up faster so I had more gas went a lot more raven heavy then he did, we had a battle where I had lost my bcs had a few vikings left and nearly all my Ravens I retreated because I was out of pdd and he just had bcs and very fw vikings, in the next and final battle I had 28 to 30 Ravens and didn't have enough vikings to get through his pdd, the seeker misses did okay we were both really good about keeping are units spread. TLDR: how many Ravens do you want to get that perfect combination
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On April 18 2013 22:12 mokumoku wrote:
anyone have flash's tvz build order that he was doing in the gsl just now?
Roughly :
15 cc, rax, 16 gaz (or 15, not sure), fact, reactor, double oc, switch fact/rax, make tl on rax (and start stim) and 6 hellions (then mines) cc, gaz, 2 rax, depot, 2 engi bay, 2rax + port, armory. Add tech lab fact later for mine upgrade.
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On April 18 2013 22:23 LeftY_ wrote:
In endgame tvt, split map, with nearly a complete air composition how many Ravens is to much? I got my 5th and 6th bases up faster so I had more gas went a lot more raven heavy then he did, we had a battle where I had lost my bcs had a few vikings left and nearly all my Ravens I retreated because I was out of pdd and he just had bcs and very fw vikings, in the next and final battle I had 28 to 30 Ravens and didn't have enough vikings to get through his pdd, the seeker misses did okay we were both really good about keeping are units spread. TLDR: how many Ravens do you want to get that perfect combination
Well obviously 30 ravens is waaay too much, ravens are your support unit, don't treat them like WoL infestors. I would say you need no more than 10, the rest of your supply should be in a few battlecruisers and a LOT of vikings. I think the vikings are key to winning air battles as if you go too heavy on BCs your opponents vikings can just kite them once he has cleared your vikings.
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I played few air 1v1 games against my clanmate of huge duration...
our conclusion is that the best composition is mass widow mine vs air.
Just mass widow mine, run to him and burrow.... he can't do shit!! he will have a lot of viking that won't do damage to mines...
After that, you can start making vikings/bc's yourself, cuz he will lose all his vikings and won't produce viking to counter your mine... so u just rape him with viking + bc.
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So I tried mech vs Protoss after Strelok played like a beast with it in the WCS qualifier. But we came to the point where the protoss had become airtoss with tempest etc.
What is the best counter vs this? Viking + Raven + Mines and Thors?
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On April 18 2013 20:28 Thor.Rush wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 19:25 mihajovics wrote:
Wouldn't ghosts in TvZ mech endgame be extremely useful? They never seem to appear in pro games (like today in GSL soulkey vs maru), even though they seem like a very good counter to vipers and infestors. Having only 1 barracks producing them doesn't seem like a huge investment (175 - 50 techlab + academy). Siege Tanks > Infestors, Vikings > Vipers. Having air control with vikings and ravens is important so the zerg can't go mass corruptor broodlords. Ghosts may do well against vipers and infestors, but they can't deal with anything else (they were nerfed to hell in WoL). A few ghosts for nukes and maybe some EMPs/snipes would be great though.
Far too gas heavy and you need the tech labbed rax for marauders (utras). Thors, Tanks and Ravens are all more efficient and relatively less gas consuming than ghosts.
Vikings are most definitely a counter to vipers though.
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On April 18 2013 06:25 Strater wrote:
and i think its not fair that u cant 1 base vs toss anymore and toss has like so many 1 base all ins
(blink, immortal all in, 4 gate, 5 gate, oracle, void ray, dt, ...)
oh, don't get me started...
but at least ebay with turrets will cover dt, oracle and void ray.
but you're right, there are so many toss all-ins to worry about...hard to remember it all =) And from what I learned, blink stalkers are best countered by a tank, so now you have at least 3 builds to consider - bunkers at the front vs 4-gate/3-gate robo, turrets vs oracle/dt/void, tank vs blink. Unless someone can make suggestions for narrowing down the # of defensive responses vs toss all-ins.
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On April 18 2013 20:32 Thor.Rush wrote:
@Marathi The #1 ranked Korean GM ladder is a Terran from team Prime. It's possible that it's MKP (even if Byun denies it)!
Regardless whether it's MKP or Maru, I think you'd need to have pretty damn good early game knowledge and micro to pull off that CC build. But if they're feeling confident in that part of the game go for it and let us know your results 
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Sorry, I feel very dumb, but where do i find the vod for :
Some kind of Reaper expand into 3 rax Medivacs with EB before Factory (bio/biomech).
Same as above.
?
Thx and sorry again 
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On April 19 2013 01:10 Michal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 06:25 Strater wrote:
and i think its not fair that u cant 1 base vs toss anymore and toss has like so many 1 base all ins
(blink, immortal all in, 4 gate, 5 gate, oracle, void ray, dt, ...) oh, don't get me started... but at least ebay with turrets will cover dt, oracle and void ray. but you're right, there are so many toss all-ins to worry about...hard to remember it all =) And from what I learned, blink stalkers are best countered by a tank, so now you have at least 3 builds to consider - bunkers at the front vs 4-gate/3-gate robo, turrets vs oracle/dt/void, tank vs blink. Unless someone can make suggestions for narrowing down the # of defensive responses vs toss all-ins.
Minez.......... and scans = autowin
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On April 19 2013 01:10 Michal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 18 2013 06:25 Strater wrote:
and i think its not fair that u cant 1 base vs toss anymore and toss has like so many 1 base all ins
(blink, immortal all in, 4 gate, 5 gate, oracle, void ray, dt, ...) oh, don't get me started... but at least ebay with turrets will cover dt, oracle and void ray. but you're right, there are so many toss all-ins to worry about...hard to remember it all =) And from what I learned, blink stalkers are best countered by a tank, so now you have at least 3 builds to consider - bunkers at the front vs 4-gate/3-gate robo, turrets vs oracle/dt/void, tank vs blink. Unless someone can make suggestions for narrowing down the # of defensive responses vs toss all-ins.
Safest way is to send a SCV at around 5:30 into his base. You will get a pretty good idea what he does and if you scout nothing but 2 gas (for example) then just scout the whole map.
I also had a lot of troubles against toss allins but with efficient scouting its pretty easy to deal with.
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EPT
