EPTThe HotS Terran Help Me Thread - Page 53
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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Thor.Rush
Sweden702 Posts
On April 17 2013 23:04 suicideyear wrote: I'm noticing this mid-game attack before Protoss gets Storm/3-3/more than a couple colossi out where the T brings out a large amount of SCVs as well is becoming really popular in Korean TvPs. Bomber did it on Creator but Innovation in his second set with Rain in the GSL looked good as hell. part of that is because it's Bomber and Innovation but I'm wondering if this is something to look into. It was strong in WoL too. Not sure why protosses stopped doing the 1 colossi into HT tech. | ||
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padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On April 17 2013 23:04 suicideyear wrote: I'm noticing this mid-game attack before Protoss gets Storm/3-3/more than a couple colossi out where the T brings out a large amount of SCVs as well is becoming really popular in Korean TvPs. Bomber did it on Creator but Innovation in his second set with Rain in the GSL looked good as hell. part of that is because it's Bomber and Innovation but I'm wondering if this is something to look into. It was always viable, not a lot of terran players actually want to play late game so this is how we compensated. You basically scout out and hit the window where toss is teching hard, is trying to defend 3 bases at once, but doesnt have storm quite yet. Sometimes bomber doesnt even give a fuck and attacks when toss is on 2 base on Star Station (insane nat choke) and still wins anyways. Weird as hell. Bomber usually just goes 5 rax off 2 base, +1 timing, grab a bunch of scvs at 13:30 and hit at 14:00 if I remember correct. Innovation grabs a fast third, forcing the toss to grab a third, and drags scvs once he sees the third, otherwise toss will all in and Im sure he practiced heavily on how to defend 2 base 6 gate collosi all in after a fast third. Whats fun is that the games Innovation played vs Rain today in GSL are one of the only TvPs where I saw no widowmine, no stargate and no reaper. Very, very oldschool. | ||
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DJHelium
Sweden13480 Posts
On April 17 2013 02:24 neversleeping wrote: I'd love to see more detailed answers than in the OP about not only scouting Protoss early but specific tips on defending the various strong all-ins. Without trying to get too whiny and admittedly it's anecdotal but literally 13 out of the last 15 TvP I've played on ladder have been hard cheeses (not just pressure builds, etc.), with typical 4-Gate / MSC / blink / proxy stargates shenanigans, and even a proxy zealot rush on Whirlwind that it took too long for me to scout (though I didn't react perfectly either, of course). Just observing a LOT of Protoss lately (at least in Platinum) doing more cheeses than I'm used to and I'd love some guidance on defending the various builds. Blink builds seem to be giving me the most trouble -- I scout no expand, but scout no proxy stargates, bunkers at the front but they just blink into main, then bounce between, etc. Ugh. PS, if any Plat-ish Protoss want to do some customs I'd really love the rare chance to play a real game to practice macro / late game. =\ Atm I like to go for a reactor expand build. 12 rax, 15 gas, reactor after first 2 marines, expo. Then go factory and starport for widow mine+marine drop. If you scout no third pylon and a lot of gas, something fishy is up. Scout for proxy stargate with SCV and put widow mine in mineral line. If you scout third pylon, leave his base. Check if he has an expo up a bit later, I dunno exact timing but around 5:15 or 5:30. If no expo, he is probably all in. In addition to your bunker in front (either at natural ramp or main ramp), put a bunker covering the production facilities. This helps vs both blink and warp prism 4gates. Keep churning out marines and widow mines, after 2 widow mines you might want to go tanks to break out of a blink stalker contain. Getting one viking can be good to kill off the mothership core. Make sure to have at least 3-4 SCVs ready to repair bunker, in case he blinks in and instantly targets it. I like to have a wall in at ramp, so if he went DTs you can delay them and get turret/raven. It shouldn't be hard to defend if you do this. The key is scouting his gas, third pylon and expo. Don't be surprised by it, and have a bunker ready to repair in main as well. | ||
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Strater
12 Posts
sorry for writing this, i usually never complain about balance but i want u to watch this replay: http://drop.sc/324810 it a proxy oracle that arrives at 5:10 !not standard version of proxy oracle! no idea how to beat this with a standard fe build | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
On April 17 2013 23:04 suicideyear wrote: I'm noticing this mid-game attack before Protoss gets Storm/3-3/more than a couple colossi out where the T brings out a large amount of SCVs as well is becoming really popular in Korean TvPs. Bomber did it on Creator but Innovation in his second set with Rain in the GSL looked good as hell. part of that is because it's Bomber and Innovation but I'm wondering if this is something to look into. Its super strong if they don't have templar tech, and if you wanna try to end it before the protoss gets out of control its a very strong build. Remember to have enough Vikings, they are absolutely key in this attack! | ||
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Snoodles
401 Posts
On April 18 2013 04:14 Strater wrote: protoss is op! sorry for writing this, i usually never complain about balance but i want u to watch this replay: http://drop.sc/324810 it a proxy oracle that arrives at 5:10 !not standard version of proxy oracle! no idea how to beat this with a standard fe build Wow that's pretty wild. | ||
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WhiteWolfe
Canada3 Posts
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Strater
12 Posts
i mean i could defend it but only with 9 scout, which would mean i have to go 9 scout anyway every game vs toss.... and i think its not fair that u cant 1 base vs toss anymore and toss has like so many 1 base all ins (blink, immortal all in, 4 gate, 5 gate, oracle, void ray, dt, ...) | ||
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EZR-Aeron
New Zealand64 Posts
Is the opening in TvP where T goes cc, 2x rax, 2x gas, e bays, more rax + fact, port becoming more popular? Or is the LG-IM mine drop opener still good to use? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 18 2013 10:57 EZR-Aeron wrote: I asked this before but didn't get a response: Is the opening in TvP where T goes cc, 2x rax, 2x gas, e bays, more rax + fact, port becoming more popular? Or is the LG-IM mine drop opener still good to use? I don't know about popular, but check out this playlist of the MLG Winter Exhibitions and look at MarineKing's games, specifically against Seed and herO for examples of this CC-first style of play. Like any other style, it has specific things you must guard against in order to succeed (Oracle play and Immortal busts come to mind as large red flags for CC-first builds), but it's certainly not 'unsafe' in the way that blind 1-rax 3cc is. MarineKing went CC-first almost every game versus many Protoss players and he absolutely stomped the tournament, so there are definitely examples to follow. | ||
U_G_L_Y
United States516 Posts
On April 18 2013 04:14 Strater wrote: protoss is op! sorry for writing this, i usually never complain about balance but i want u to watch this replay: http://drop.sc/324810 it a proxy oracle that arrives at 5:10 !not standard version of proxy oracle! no idea how to beat this with a standard fe build 1) True. It's really pissing me off. 2) Why do you go marine then reaper? If you go 11/11 reaper, it FORCES Protoss to make a stalker, delaying an oracle significantly and you get guaranteed probe kills. Since he proxied ALL of his buildings, you could have killed every probe. Scouting with a reaper AFTER a marine and no SCV scout is way too risky, in my scrub opinion. 3) Not that it mattered, but you just sat outside his base with your reaper when you saw no units. Why weren't you going to town on the probes? 4) The LG-IM 15 gas build has 6 marines at 5:10 exactly if you don't SCV scout. http://sc2planner.com/#TaaaaoEaaoFaaaoDajoEcoCjafoQaoAaaoEiZoHaiZa 6 marines in your mineral line should handle an oracle if you have them in your mineral line. 5) See #1. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
On April 17 2013 23:04 suicideyear wrote: I'm noticing this mid-game attack before Protoss gets Storm/3-3/more than a couple colossi out where the T brings out a large amount of SCVs as well is becoming really popular in Korean TvPs. Bomber did it on Creator but Innovation in his second set with Rain in the GSL looked good as hell. part of that is because it's Bomber and Innovation but I'm wondering if this is something to look into. now that pretty much everything else is not viable anymore, this is very viable. for me, i do it almost every game tvp. | ||
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geokilla
Canada8244 Posts
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On April 18 2013 13:18 geokilla wrote: Does anyone feel that TvZ has been figured out by the Zergs? At my level, (mid to top Diamond), it seems that the Zergs are getting tons of Overseers.... Combined with Muta Ling and it's just deadly cus mutas are so fast and if you got no widow mines to defend, well just Marine's ain't gonna cut it. You can still go Marine/Tank/Medivac as your primary composition in TvZ. Remember that with the adjustment of Fungal Growth to be a projectile plus the addition of Medivac speed boost, you no longer have to worry about 3 Infestors ruining your entire army followed by tech into an unkillable Broodlord deathball. And as always, Marine/Tank/Medivac will be about positioning and control. | ||
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terrOne
Italy172 Posts
anyone know of some safe openings? the reaper hellion 3 orb opening just dosen't seem safe, and its hard sometimes to get the perfect scout. In the protoss i'm totally lost... Even if I scout a building or something the allin is either too strong or there is no way to punish a protoss.. | ||
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`dunedain
655 Posts
On April 18 2013 13:18 geokilla wrote: Does anyone feel that TvZ has been figured out by the Zergs? At my level, (mid to top Diamond), it seems that the Zergs are getting tons of Overseers.... Combined with Muta Ling and it's just deadly cus mutas are so fast and if you got no widow mines to defend, well just Marine's ain't gonna cut it. If your Zerg opponent is going MutaLing or even deadlier MutaLingBane, you can transition from Widow Mines to Double Reactor Hellbats and just make sure you keep your marines alive in the back. Marine Hellbat Medivac is really really strong vs MutaLingBane with proper splitting and just shits on plain MutaLing without breaking a sweat. I learned this from watching DeMuslim's stream and tried it myself with very good results. The thing is though, if you allow your opponent to get a critical mass of Mutas, you may be in trouble if you don't have Thor support. But Marine Hellbat Medivac is disgustingly strong vs MutaLing, and MutaLingBane (with proper marine splitting). | ||
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gengka
Malaysia461 Posts
On April 18 2013 14:06 Jazzman88 wrote: You can still go Marine/Tank/Medivac as your primary composition in TvZ. Remember that with the adjustment of Fungal Growth to be a projectile plus the addition of Medivac speed boost, you no longer have to worry about 3 Infestors ruining your entire army followed by tech into an unkillable Broodlord deathball. And as always, Marine/Tank/Medivac will be about positioning and control. I am still not convinced that fungal growth becoming projectile had make any difference. So far i haven't seen any consistent fungal dodging even by the pros, due to the projectile travelling speed is so fast. Especially during large battles fungal growth can still easily hit terran's army. And also brood lords are still strong as ever. My opinion on why infestors+queen+broodlords are becoming less popular, because of few factors: 1) Its harder to rush your way to infestor+broods stage like WOL. terrans now has more weapon to pressure the zerg (Reapers widow mines and turboviac) It forces zerg to play lings Muta or Roach Hydra before they can reach the late game composition. Its often so hard to defend the aggression while teching to that ultimate composition, therefore normally zergs will go for ultralisk composition due to its easier to build and ultra is buffed. 2) Ravens. new HSM is effective in fighting against broodlords and infestors. Not totally hard countering but it makes defeating broodlords more possible and easier. My conclusion is, its not the fungal growth "nerf" that prevented Zerg going for turtle 4 base +infestor broodlords. Its terran that are buffed and has more aggressive options to make zerg more difficult to reach that perfect economy condition to supoport infestors+broods. | ||
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mihajovics
179 Posts
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TRpredator
Russian Federation101 Posts
On April 18 2013 19:25 mihajovics wrote: Wouldn't ghosts in TvZ mech endgame be extremely useful? They never seem to appear in pro games (like today in GSL soulkey vs maru), even though they seem like a very good counter to vipers and infestors. Having only 1 barracks producing them doesn't seem like a huge investment (175 - 50 techlab + academy). They're good against infestors however when you go for ravens which are too gas intensive therefore it's hard to invest and you need to properly get the composition. In todays game soulkey didn't have much spellcaster(only few vipers) so he didn't want to waste gas. However later in game he couldn't invest in it. Against vipers ghosts are bad because abduct has long range and it's hard to aim at them with EMP or snipe bec they're flying units and has pretty high movement speed. Another problem is micro: you need to EMP/snipe, hsm/pdd, siedge/unsiedge, yamato. Ofc this is super APM intensive. | ||
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