Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions.
On April 19 2013 22:21 padfoota wrote: So I was messing around with saracen and I found out +3 hellbats oneshot zerglings regardless of zergling armor upgrades! Personally I hate mines so I guess Ill be implementing them with fast ups more and more
just watch out for mass bling muta! Really hard to stop without mines or tanks
On April 19 2013 22:21 padfoota wrote: So I was messing around with saracen and I found out +3 hellbats oneshot zerglings regardless of zergling armor upgrades! Personally I hate mines so I guess Ill be implementing them with fast ups more and more
just watch out for mass bling muta! Really hard to stop without mines or tanks
? 3/3 hellbats with insane splits hurr hurr hurr hurr...I built 2 armories accidentally that game and decided to just go double ups for hellbat too....served me very, very well in the end.
But no seriously if the opponent manages to get to an unmanagable amount of banelings then something is very wrong with the terran's idea of bio play, or hes being outclassed.
On April 19 2013 22:51 xgtx wrote: isnt hellbat drop the stronger BO in TvT ? If yes why dont korean pros do it then in the ladder? What's the counter?
Marines. pure marine play until mid game has always been the signature of TvT on kr. Marines also counter hellbat drop HARD if your control is up to scratch. Hellbat drop was a strong build when players didnt know it that well, but since everyone is using it, its success rate has dropped. I think Dwf mentioned somewhere that you simply camp marines inside the mineral line and stutterstep out when the drop hits, but my personal preference is to do a money scan on 6:30 and camp the edges with a lot of marines. Actually sometimes I dont even bother to scan. Scout his nat consistently with your unit of choice and leave that unit outside somewhere on patrol when you are sure hes not expanding. Fill a bunker at the nat with marines and rally the rest inside your main. Depot the edges. If he charges in with a drop you snipe it.
You can also destroy it quite hard with a simple 1-1-1 opener if your viking catches it early enough, but if the drop gets in you still use your marines in the end.
You can say 1-1-1 and whatever build (mine drop, whatever whatever) but 1 rax FE or reaper FE into mass marine (double reactor single techlab) with double engibay for ups (or single, depends how fast you want the dropship out) will always win with good map awareness + control. But yeah, you still get your occasional greedy terran who gets raped hard by a dual prong banshee play that transitions into mass marine too...its all about the marine count yo
Hello. I always struggle in TvP, I cant seem to deal with the protos army if i decide to go for a macrobuild. If anyone want to check my replay when i lose it would be helpful:
Hey all, I'm really interested in TvP and how the matchup is developing. I would love it if some Masters+ players had any replays of CC-first plays in TvP that I could look at to study and incorporate into my own play.
Specifically I'm trying to find out all the possible ways I could die to various things (as I ladder I am discovering these personally of course) and how to maintain that early eco lead effectively.
On April 19 2013 23:47 Obbim wrote: Hello. I always struggle in TvP, I cant seem to deal with the protos army if i decide to go for a macrobuild. If anyone want to check my replay when i lose it would be helpful:
On April 19 2013 23:47 Obbim wrote: Hello. I always struggle in TvP, I cant seem to deal with the protos army if i decide to go for a macrobuild. If anyone want to check my replay when i lose it would be helpful:
On April 19 2013 23:47 Obbim wrote: Hello. I always struggle in TvP, I cant seem to deal with the protos army if i decide to go for a macrobuild. If anyone want to check my replay when i lose it would be helpful:
Jotting down stuff as I go.... Map is antiga shipyard, as I recall this map was changed to cross spawn only, so dont bother scouting the side bases.
Regarding 1 rax FE vs Protoss, marines are the absolute priority early on. Do NOT delay marines for anything, not workers, not depot, nothing. Absolutely must have constant marine production. It means the difference between holding off a zealot stalker poke or dying to the second stalker at the 5 minute mark.
Regarding your build....it needs serious fricken work bro. I cant find an actual build I like (bombers TvP opener actually got raped by the new meta lol) So heres our favorite analyzer.
As far as scouting goes, you were lucky to see the second gas, but made no attempt to do a follow up scout for expansion or a scan at 6:30....then again none of these apply properly to the skill level you are playing at (im watching both views and Im confused as fuck whats going on), but usually in WoL if protoss is opening double gas then hes doing something wonky, and itll be best to double check what hes doing, make sure if he has or hasnt expanded, and try to figure out what type of one base hes doing (Robo or twilight council based, how many gas units has he made etc etc)
You managed to transition yourself into a nice macro type of build (heavy rax, double ups, third base, and double starport), so good job!
Regarding vikings vs medevacs. In all situations no matter what, you want medevacs. Unless you have a very specific build order in mind, you want at least 4 medevacs asap regardless of what your opponent is doing. You went for a very blind viking. If you are unsure what to get, scan for protoss composition. If he has collosi, start vikings. If he doesnt have any robo based unit, then hes doing storms, and you want lots of medevacs.
14:00 - Why did you push >_>? You had no idea what the protoss has, you saw no third base and you didnt even have medevacs D:.
Oh jesus christ you then proceeded to make more medeavcs than I do when I play TvZ LOL. Goodjob on that...but you needed vikings at that point ><
Goodjob on the map control tho :D
Remember to upgrade vikings too!
Ok after the 20 minute mark you have absolutely no idea what you were doing since you pushed with some kind of air terran with 5 marines and 20 medevacs.
Eh....Im being too nice here so lets wrap this up in my usual style.
1. FIX YOUR FUCKING BUILD 2. STOP PUSHING BLINDLY. MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE UP AGAINST. ALL YOU KNEW WAS THAT HE WAS PROTOSS 3. THERES NO 3 I CANT THINK OF ANYTHING THAT APPLIES TO YOUR LEVEL
Ok, ok obviously you are super duper new. I suggest watching some nice replays with late game TvP to get a feel on how the matchup goes first, Day9 is a great place to start.
1. FIX YOUR FUCKING BUILD 2. STOP PUSHING BLINDLY. MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE UP AGAINST. ALL YOU KNEW WAS THAT HE WAS PROTOSS 3. THERES NO 3 I CANT THINK OF ANYTHING THAT APPLIES TO YOUR LEVEL
Haha, thank you for that hard piece of written truth. Obiously i have a million things to improve on, but thanks for pointning the most important stuff out. Ive only played starcraft since beginning of march, so I guess i should be good of stayin in bronzeleauge for a little longer However, thanks again, ill keep on practicing.
i got promoted to gold and i haven't won a game since. no one wants to play a macro game anymore, which is cool because no one cries at early aggression anymore. but it seems like:
-scout 1 gas vs protoss, i'm like okay, then it turns out it's actually proxy oracle and beanwhile i don't have an engineering bay and just finished my factory -scout an early pool vs zerg. cool, i wall-off and highground my CC, except it was actually ling/baneling and they just smash through the wall tvt i don't have much problem with aside from defending drops i guess.
when should i be scouting and what should i be looking for? 10/12 scout and scans isn't getting it done anymore.
Been at the very top of platinum consistently for a while now, but I'm really struggling to get further. The main thing that's holding me back is engaging the collossus supported army in TvP. I go 1 racks gasless FE every time, and I'm literally always outmacroing my opponents, but I still seem to lose a major part of my games.
In a game I just now played, we both took an early expo, grabbed the early third and just macroed. And still I was at 150 supply when the Protoss was at 100, without a single unit having been killed. (We had about the same amount of workers, so being Terran I was ahead in that department aswell.) But still he manages to slaughter my army in a matter of seconds, just cause controlling the vikings and army at the same time is so hard. I'm using one controll group for my bio army, and one for the vikings, but I feel like I'm required to multitask like MKP to be able to win.
How should I engage? If I concentrate on kiting the zealots, my vikings get demolished, if I kite the vikings, the colossi melt my army. It's really frustrating cause it feels like the Protoss has to do basically nothing compared to the Terran.
On April 19 2013 22:51 xgtx wrote: isnt hellbat drop the stronger BO in TvT ? If yes why dont korean pros do it then in the ladder? What's the counter?
Marines. pure marine play until mid game has always been the signature of TvT on kr. Marines also counter hellbat drop HARD if your control is up to scratch. Hellbat drop was a strong build when players didnt know it that well, but since everyone is using it, its success rate has dropped. I think Dwf mentioned somewhere that you simply camp marines inside the mineral line and stutterstep out when the drop hits, but my personal preference is to do a money scan on 6:30 and camp the edges with a lot of marines. Actually sometimes I dont even bother to scan. Scout his nat consistently with your unit of choice and leave that unit outside somewhere on patrol when you are sure hes not expanding. Fill a bunker at the nat with marines and rally the rest inside your main. Depot the edges. If he charges in with a drop you snipe it.
You can also destroy it quite hard with a simple 1-1-1 opener if your viking catches it early enough, but if the drop gets in you still use your marines in the end.
You can say 1-1-1 and whatever build (mine drop, whatever whatever) but 1 rax FE or reaper FE into mass marine (double reactor single techlab) with double engibay for ups (or single, depends how fast you want the dropship out) will always win with good map awareness + control. But yeah, you still get your occasional greedy terran who gets raped hard by a dual prong banshee play that transitions into mass marine too...its all about the marine count yo
thanks ! now tell me why pros rarely make any vikings in tvt in bio... the person who has first vikings always wins because he dominates air and has more vision
On April 20 2013 06:30 Tzuborg wrote: Been at the very top of platinum consistently for a while now, but I'm really struggling to get further. The main thing that's holding me back is engaging the collossus supported army in TvP. I go 1 racks gasless FE every time, and I'm literally always outmacroing my opponents, but I still seem to lose a major part of my games.
In a game I just now played, we both took an early expo, grabbed the early third and just macroed. And still I was at 150 supply when the Protoss was at 100, without a single unit having been killed. (We had about the same amount of workers, so being Terran I was ahead in that department aswell.) But still he manages to slaughter my army in a matter of seconds, just cause controlling the vikings and army at the same time is so hard. I'm using one controll group for my bio army, and one for the vikings, but I feel like I'm required to multitask like MKP to be able to win.
How should I engage? If I concentrate on kiting the zealots, my vikings get demolished, if I kite the vikings, the colossi melts my army. It's really frustrating cause it feels like the Protoss has to do basically nothing compared to the Terran.
Sounds like you dont have enough vikings if they are getting demolished before the collosi die....you want about 3x the amount of vikings than your opponent has collosi. If they are still getting demolished then he probably has a LOT of stalkers which means not that many chargelots. If you are sick of kiting a lot with mmm vs chargelots add some hellbats, they are insanely cost effective vs chargelots...you can just build them off the first factory after adding a reactor....but dont build them unless you have 3 base econ.
The whole point of having a lot of vikings is to make sure they will kill everything they can reach in the air without worrying about microing them. Make sure you have upgrades for them too, it helps a LOT. And really, dont think yourself into a corner. Mkp deals with everything above while having to micro ghosts and drops, and the opponents hes dealing with goes everything in the book :/
Regarding TvP - I...I already forgot about the whole "lets all macro together then engage at 200/200" since drops are so strong nowadays and can easily flat out kill the protoss once it beings to snowball.
Oh and lastly - multtasking means more along the lines of microing marine marauder ghost viking while dropping opponent while building bases/rax at home rather than a simple "control two groups at once" type of deal....calm down and just do it. Its not that hard. All vikings need are good positioning. If you come at them from a side angle they wont be shot at as much by stalkers - think about that.
These are probably not the advice a pro would give, but at gold level I don't think it matters. This is at least what I do:
On April 20 2013 06:21 suicideyear wrote: -scout 1 gas vs protoss, i'm like okay, then it turns out it's actually proxy oracle and beanwhile i don't have an engineering bay and just finished my factory
In the beginning of the game, if I scout a 2nd gas and no fast 2nd expo, I keep all my marines in my mineral line. And I don't land the second CC until I have enough marines to keep like 7-8 in each line. When my ebay is up, I put up turrets and move the marines out.
On April 20 2013 06:21 suicideyear wrote: -scout an early pool vs zerg. cool, i wall-off and highground my CC, except it was actually ling/baneling and they just smash through the wall
when should i be scouting and what should i be looking for? 10/12 scout and scans isn't getting it done anymore.
My mindset in TvZ is this: if I scout an early pool, no 2nd expo or any other indications of early aggression, I don't hesitate to build like three or even four bunkers, because I know that I'm way ahead if I can just hold off the first attack (seeing as I always go 1 racks into CC).
Flash goes for CC first into gas into factory. He only makes 2 marines, then he makes a factory. My question: how does he defend a 2base roachpush (7:00) from the zerg?
Another question: how does he hold a big 9:00 roach ling bling allin? He makes 6 hellions, and marines...
On April 20 2013 07:14 Snowbear wrote: Flash goes for CC first into gas into factory. He only makes 2 marines, then he makes a factory. My question: how does he defend a 2base roachpush (7:00) from the zerg?
Another question: how does he hold a big 9:00 roach ling bling allin? He makes 6 hellions, and marines...
Scouting.. He sends his scv early on and sees the zergs gas, and he plays very aggressive with his hellions to get information. For example in the recent code S on whirlwind, can't remember vs which zerg - flash was aggressive with his hellions, saw the zerg wasnt making units and ran inside his base with the hellions getting a nice scout off. He gets a very early stim/techlab on his rax which can make marauders if necessary, a couple of rauders are enough vs any pure roach attack. He also gets a second bunker behind his inital bunker, blindly I believe(they didn't show him scanning his opponents main).
*edit: the early stim that innovation and flash get (contrary to the WOL style 1-1 first) helps alot in defending allins.
On April 20 2013 07:14 Snowbear wrote: Flash goes for CC first into gas into factory. He only makes 2 marines, then he makes a factory. My question: how does he defend a 2base roachpush (7:00) from the zerg?
Another question: how does he hold a big 9:00 roach ling bling allin? He makes 6 hellions, and marines...
Scouting.. He sends his scv early on and sees the zergs gas, and he plays very aggressive with his hellions to get information. For example in the recent code S on whirlwind, can't remember vs which zerg - flash was aggressive with his hellions, saw the zerg wasnt making units and ran inside his base with the hellions getting a nice scout off. He gets a very early stim/techlab on his rax which can make marauders if necessary, a couple of rauders are enough vs any pure roach attack. He also gets a second bunker behind his inital bunker, blindly I believe(they didn't show him scanning his opponents main).
So you think he can hold a roach ling bling allin with 2 bunkers and 6 hellions (just wondering, I hope he does)?
On April 20 2013 07:14 Snowbear wrote: Flash goes for CC first into gas into factory. He only makes 2 marines, then he makes a factory. My question: how does he defend a 2base roachpush (7:00) from the zerg?
Another question: how does he hold a big 9:00 roach ling bling allin? He makes 6 hellions, and marines...
Scouting.. He sends his scv early on and sees the zergs gas, and he plays very aggressive with his hellions to get information. For example in the recent code S on whirlwind, can't remember vs which zerg - flash was aggressive with his hellions, saw the zerg wasnt making units and ran inside his base with the hellions getting a nice scout off. He gets a very early stim/techlab on his rax which can make marauders if necessary, a couple of rauders are enough vs any pure roach attack. He also gets a second bunker behind his inital bunker, blindly I believe(they didn't show him scanning his opponents main).
So you think he can hold a roach ling bling allin with 2 bunkers and 6 hellions (just wondering, I hope he does)?
Yes, if he targets the roaches with the rauders and microes correctly with his hellions he will hold it off while losing scvs. If it'sa later allin (9 minutes) he should also have some widow mines.
On April 20 2013 07:14 Snowbear wrote: Flash goes for CC first into gas into factory. He only makes 2 marines, then he makes a factory. My question: how does he defend a 2base roachpush (7:00) from the zerg?
Another question: how does he hold a big 9:00 roach ling bling allin? He makes 6 hellions, and marines...
Scouting.. He sends his scv early on and sees the zergs gas, and he plays very aggressive with his hellions to get information. For example in the recent code S on whirlwind, can't remember vs which zerg - flash was aggressive with his hellions, saw the zerg wasnt making units and ran inside his base with the hellions getting a nice scout off. He gets a very early stim/techlab on his rax which can make marauders if necessary, a couple of rauders are enough vs any pure roach attack. He also gets a second bunker behind his inital bunker, blindly I believe(they didn't show him scanning his opponents main).
So you think he can hold a roach ling bling allin with 2 bunkers and 6 hellions (just wondering, I hope he does)?
I have held various attacks such as a Baneling bust, Roach pressure (with or without Burrow) and a 7'30 Roach baneling bust using the adjustment in the OP (Q. Is CC rax gas still very vulnerable to Roaches or Roaches/Zerglings pressure/all-in?).
EPT
However, thanks again, ill keep on practicing.
