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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. |
On April 21 2013 23:59 GriMHopE wrote:
Diamond Terran here and I have a question on how to deal with Swarm hosts. Do I need to constantly drop? Do i go into tanks instead of mines? What kind of composition and style do I need to play to play against Swarm hosts in TvZ?
Drop everywhere, when they open swarmhost it's most likely all they have. Dropping makes it easy to deal with those. Then until you have a sizeable army you just 1 A and you're fine. Swarm hosts are only hard to deal with if you try to fight them with a low army.
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On April 21 2013 21:46 padfoota wrote:
Q. When can I include Hellbats if I play bio?
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:
Virtually never (too vulnerable to Banelings, your Reactor Factory production time is better spent on Mines). It's only useful if for some reason your opponent refuses to make Banelings and sticks to pure Zerglings.
D: I object - Thats like saying marines are bad vs banelings. I dont like using mines heavily so I stick to hellbats. Even if a bunch dies having just 1!!! Hellbat left with a handful of marines is an insanely sick force no small amount of zergling reinforcement can hope to clean up nicely
Show me pro games with Hellbats successfully replacing Mines then.
On April 21 2013 22:50 bhfberserk wrote:
Edit: I have read the OP, does it mean in order to hold the all in, I have to immediately pulling back the natural expansion, and defend in the main base until enough tanks/marine are out?
Then why do you ask the question? The OP says "Lift your natural and defend in your main," with 3 VODs examples to illustrate that, can't be any clearer.
On April 21 2013 23:48 4Servy wrote:
With 1 rax > fe > 1/1/1 its impossible to hold anyform of blink all in on almost all maps unless the protoss player is a complete tool.
Wrong.
Since people just won't behave and keep asking things already adressed in the OP, from now on I will actively report posts asking questions answered in the OP or "asserting something wildly wrong, especially without enough support" (example with the quote just above). If red lines are the only thing able to make people read, that's quite pathetic but so be it.
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Italy12246 Posts
Welcome to my life man. Believe me, it does get better after a few reports.
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On April 22 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 21:46 padfoota wrote:
Q. When can I include Hellbats if I play bio?
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:
Virtually never (too vulnerable to Banelings, your Reactor Factory production time is better spent on Mines). It's only useful if for some reason your opponent refuses to make Banelings and sticks to pure Zerglings.
D: I object - Thats like saying marines are bad vs banelings. I dont like using mines heavily so I stick to hellbats. Even if a bunch dies having just 1!!! Hellbat left with a handful of marines is an insanely sick force no small amount of zergling reinforcement can hope to clean up nicely Show me pro games with Hellbats successfully replacing Mines then.
I think Demuslim did it a few times in the WCS NA qualifiers (not that I'm advocating it).
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No its not wrong (I should have put the word realistically in there) you are completly blind with this build, you can be hit by an orcacle all in without knowing which instant gibs it aswell, you can be hit by immortal all in, dt's everything or even parting double expand builds. In a realistic scenario you have like maybe just 1 tank and some marines with your approach. And if you do this aproach you delay startport swap so no raven which means you will be hopelessly behind vs DT expands because you just made some useless tanks. Furthermore you cant defend both your nat and main so you will have to make the decision to shuttle back to your main almost blindly and make 2 bunkers there blindly.
There's a reason that most terrans who know what they are doing dont open like this (1 rax > fe > double gas 1/1/1) and only use it occasionally in box series or something. In the GSL I have not seen it used once thusfar atleast.
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Northern Ireland461 Posts
Hey, I am having trouble ordering my build in TvP and TvT, (Both 15 gas 'LG-IM', standard mine marine vac drop in TvP, and marine hellion vac push/drop in TvT.) I can execute them up to a point, but I have trouble in knowing how to follow it up correctly, and so my macro is no where near as crisp as it was in Wings, this is starting to become a major issue as I start to play Masters opponents. If anyone can help me get the order nailed down in my head after these 15 gas builds, I would be very grateful. (Things like, gas timings, extra rax times, when to get engi bay, do I get 1 or 2, when do I get double vac production? etc.)
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On April 22 2013 00:49 kollin wrote:
I think Demuslim did it a few times in the WCS NA qualifiers (not that I'm advocating it).
Didn't see the games, do you have any link(s)?
On April 22 2013 00:51 4Servy wrote:
No its not wrong (I should have put the word realistically in there) you are completly blind with this build, you can be hit by an orcacle all in without knowing which instant gibs it aswell, you can be hit by immortal all in, dt's everything or even parting double expand builds. In a realistic scenario you have like maybe just 1 tank and some marines with your approach. And if you do this aproach you delay startport swap so no raven which means you will be hopelessly behind vs DT expands because you just made some useless tanks. Furthermore you cant defend both your nat and main so you will have to make the decision to shuttle back to your main almost blindly and make 2 bunkers there blindly.
There's a reason that most terrans who know what they are doing dont open like this (1 rax > fe > double gas 1/1/1) and only use it occasionally in box series or something. In the GSL I have not seen it used once thusfar atleast.
You were talking about "1 rax → FE → 1-1-1," a description which fits both the dual Marine reactor expand or the Reaper reactor expand that were used at IEM, MLG and in the GSL, and now you specify that you were talking about "1 rax → FE → double gas 1-1-1," a build which isn't even advocated in the OP anyway...
On April 22 2013 01:40 mau5mat wrote:
Hey, I am having trouble ordering my build in TvP and TvT, (Both 15 gas 'LG-IM', standard mine marine vac drop in TvP, and marine hellion vac push/drop in TvT.) I can execute them up to a point, but I have trouble in knowing how to follow it up correctly, and so my macro is no where near as crisp as it was in Wings, this is starting to become a major issue as I start to play Masters opponents. If anyone can help me get the order nailed down in my head after these 15 gas builds, I would be very grateful. (Things like, gas timings, extra rax times, when to get engi bay, do I get 1 or 2, when do I get double vac production? etc.)
For TvP, second gas at 6'30, extra rax around 7' while Factory and Starport make Tech Labs, single EB shortly after, dual Medivac once the Factory has built the Reactor for the Starport.
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On April 22 2013 02:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 00:49 kollin wrote:
I think Demuslim did it a few times in the WCS NA qualifiers (not that I'm advocating it). Didn't see the games, do you have any link(s)?
Sorry I don't know where to find the vods 
Though I do know he does it a lot on ladder, if that counts for anything.
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On April 22 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 21:46 padfoota wrote:
Q. When can I include Hellbats if I play bio?
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:
Virtually never (too vulnerable to Banelings, your Reactor Factory production time is better spent on Mines). It's only useful if for some reason your opponent refuses to make Banelings and sticks to pure Zerglings.
D: I object - Thats like saying marines are bad vs banelings. I dont like using mines heavily so I stick to hellbats. Even if a bunch dies having just 1!!! Hellbat left with a handful of marines is an insanely sick force no small amount of zergling reinforcement can hope to clean up nicely Show me pro games with Hellbats successfully replacing Mines then.
I have no idea if its actually viable, but demuslim seems to favour a marine hellbat composition tvz vs ling bane on his stream when I've been watching. I don't know if he was just experimenting though. I quickly clicked through the VODS I was last watching for examples:
http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/390478259 - game being played about 35 mins in, game 49 mins in & the last game that continues onto the next broadcast (http://www.twitch.tv/demuslim/b/390511822 see 15 seconds in) i think.
Note times are example of heavy hellbat use with marines tvz rather than when the game starts.
On an unrelated note, TheDwf the work you do on this thread is amazing. Its incredibly helpful, thanks :-)
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I have literally no idea how to beat protoss anymore. I had already a very hard time in WoL againts protoss , and now that I can't put ANY pressure anymore againts them I lose. Every pressure attack that a terran will do, protoss will have a nexus cannon ready to deny you. So what am I suppose to do?
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On April 22 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2013 21:46 padfoota wrote:
Q. When can I include Hellbats if I play bio?
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:
Virtually never (too vulnerable to Banelings, your Reactor Factory production time is better spent on Mines). It's only useful if for some reason your opponent refuses to make Banelings and sticks to pure Zerglings.
D: I object - Thats like saying marines are bad vs banelings. I dont like using mines heavily so I stick to hellbats. Even if a bunch dies having just 1!!! Hellbat left with a handful of marines is an insanely sick force no small amount of zergling reinforcement can hope to clean up nicely Show me pro games with Hellbats successfully replacing Mines then.
As someone said, demuslim always goes marine hellbat medic in TvZ. Goes off 11/11 2 reaper -> reac fac + 3rd CC -> 7 min double ebay -> 5 rax total -> 2 fac double reactor off 3 base. Add more production later. The 2/2 timing, and subsequent fast 3/3 destroys ling heavy armies, and with good splitting shits on ling bling muta play. I've been doing it exclusively in TvZ and my win rate has come back from like 55% to 63 or so now.
I'll see if I can find rep or vod of him doing the build. It wasn't just a one time thing, it's what he does in TvZ. Albeit playing on NA if you want to say 'its weaker competition' road...he did get #1 in the world for a while.
I think it's so strong because you don't have to invest in tunneling claws, so you are producing another unit per cycle. It's like 9 marines, 4 hellbats, 2 medic cycles. It's very gas light, and you can get 3rd's gas VERY late.
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On April 22 2013 03:38 iAmJeffReY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On April 21 2013 21:46 padfoota wrote:
Q. When can I include Hellbats if I play bio?
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:
Virtually never (too vulnerable to Banelings, your Reactor Factory production time is better spent on Mines). It's only useful if for some reason your opponent refuses to make Banelings and sticks to pure Zerglings.
D: I object - Thats like saying marines are bad vs banelings. I dont like using mines heavily so I stick to hellbats. Even if a bunch dies having just 1!!! Hellbat left with a handful of marines is an insanely sick force no small amount of zergling reinforcement can hope to clean up nicely Show me pro games with Hellbats successfully replacing Mines then. As someone said, demuslim always goes marine hellbat medic in TvZ. Goes off 11/11 2 rax reaper -> reac fac + 3rd CC -> 7 min double ebay -> 5 rax total -> 2 fac double reactor off 3 base. Add more production later. The 2/2 timing, and subsequent fast 3/3 destroys ling heavy armies, and with good splitting shits on ling bling muta play. I've been doing it exclusively in TvZ and my win rate has come back from like 55% to 63 or so now. I'll see if I can find rep or vod of him doing the build. It wasn't just a one time thing, it's what he does in TvZ. Albeit playing on NA if you want to say 'its weaker competition' road...he did get #1 in the world for a while.
I thought he only got 1 rax in TvZ, and went for the 2 rax variation in TvT. Seems kind of redundant to go reactor factory after the 4 reapers, at least to me.
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On April 22 2013 03:40 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 03:38 iAmJeffReY wrote:On April 22 2013 00:22 TheDwf wrote:On April 21 2013 21:46 padfoota wrote:
Q. When can I include Hellbats if I play bio?
On March 29 2013 04:47 TheDwf wrote:
Virtually never (too vulnerable to Banelings, your Reactor Factory production time is better spent on Mines). It's only useful if for some reason your opponent refuses to make Banelings and sticks to pure Zerglings.
D: I object - Thats like saying marines are bad vs banelings. I dont like using mines heavily so I stick to hellbats. Even if a bunch dies having just 1!!! Hellbat left with a handful of marines is an insanely sick force no small amount of zergling reinforcement can hope to clean up nicely Show me pro games with Hellbats successfully replacing Mines then. As someone said, demuslim always goes marine hellbat medic in TvZ. Goes off 11/11 2 rax reaper -> reac fac + 3rd CC -> 7 min double ebay -> 5 rax total -> 2 fac double reactor off 3 base. Add more production later. The 2/2 timing, and subsequent fast 3/3 destroys ling heavy armies, and with good splitting shits on ling bling muta play. I've been doing it exclusively in TvZ and my win rate has come back from like 55% to 63 or so now. I'll see if I can find rep or vod of him doing the build. It wasn't just a one time thing, it's what he does in TvZ. Albeit playing on NA if you want to say 'its weaker competition' road...he did get #1 in the world for a while. I thought he only got 1 rax in TvZ, and went for the 2 rax variation in TvT. Seems kind of redundant to go reactor factory after the 4 reapers, at least to me.
durrr doh me, I meant 11/11 2 reaper, not 2 rax reaper lol
Thx dood
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I need to stop posting on TL at 3am in the morning -_-
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When are Hellbats a better army composition option over Blue Flame Hellions (assuming both are available)?
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On April 22 2013 05:04 -SaharaDrac- wrote:
When are Hellbats a better army composition option over Blue Flame Hellions (assuming both are available)?
virtually always in tvz or tvp (hellbats > blue flame hellions) unless you are relying on doing blue flame harrass to do enough damage to make up for weaker army...but even then hellbat drops are really good!.
in tvt on maps such as belshir, whirlwind where its hard to turtle on 3 bases blue flame hellions may be better though.
essentially hellbats are shite at defending against drops and multipronged attacks because theyre so slow.
therefore blue flame hellions are better in tvt unless its mech versus mech in my opinion. mech versus mech, in a straight up engagement hellbats are way better, only go blue flame in tvt to take map control and play a bit greedy behind it, then make sure you have the transformation upgrade by the time the other guy might try and push out
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On April 22 2013 05:20 ThePianoDentist wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:04 -SaharaDrac- wrote:
When are Hellbats a better army composition option over Blue Flame Hellions (assuming both are available)? virtually never in tvz or tvp. in tvt on maps such as belshir, whirlwind where its hard to turtle on 3 bases. essentially hellbats are shite at defending against drops and multipronged attacks because theyre so slow. therefore blue flame hellions are better in tvt unless its mech versus mech in my opinion. mech versus mech, in a straight up engagement hellbats are way better, only go blue flame in tvt to take map control and play a bit greedy behind it, then make sure you have the transformation upgrade by the time the other guy might try and push out
Hellbats are far superior in TvZ and TvP than blueflame hellions. Better harass potential, higher damage and they are tankier.
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On April 22 2013 05:27 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 05:20 ThePianoDentist wrote:On April 22 2013 05:04 -SaharaDrac- wrote:
When are Hellbats a better army composition option over Blue Flame Hellions (assuming both are available)? virtually never in tvz or tvp. in tvt on maps such as belshir, whirlwind where its hard to turtle on 3 bases. essentially hellbats are shite at defending against drops and multipronged attacks because theyre so slow. therefore blue flame hellions are better in tvt unless its mech versus mech in my opinion. mech versus mech, in a straight up engagement hellbats are way better, only go blue flame in tvt to take map control and play a bit greedy behind it, then make sure you have the transformation upgrade by the time the other guy might try and push out Hellbats are far superior in TvZ and TvP than blueflame hellions. Better harass potential, higher damage and they are tankier.
yep just realised I had things the wrong way round! 
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On April 22 2013 02:22 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 00:49 kollin wrote:
I think Demuslim did it a few times in the WCS NA qualifiers (not that I'm advocating it). Didn't see the games, do you have any link(s)?
Show nested quote +On April 22 2013 00:51 4Servy wrote:
No its not wrong (I should have put the word realistically in there) you are completly blind with this build, you can be hit by an orcacle all in without knowing which instant gibs it aswell, you can be hit by immortal all in, dt's everything or even parting double expand builds. In a realistic scenario you have like maybe just 1 tank and some marines with your approach. And if you do this aproach you delay startport swap so no raven which means you will be hopelessly behind vs DT expands because you just made some useless tanks. Furthermore you cant defend both your nat and main so you will have to make the decision to shuttle back to your main almost blindly and make 2 bunkers there blindly.
There's a reason that most terrans who know what they are doing dont open like this (1 rax > fe > double gas 1/1/1) and only use it occasionally in box series or something. In the GSL I have not seen it used once thusfar atleast. You were talking about "1 rax → FE → 1-1-1," a description which fits both the dual Marine reactor expand or the Reaper reactor expand that were used at IEM, MLG and in the GSL, and now you specify that you were talking about "1 rax → FE → double gas 1-1-1," a build which isn't even advocated in the OP anyway...
Because I replied to the question the two guys above asked, not the OP. A 1 rax > Fe obviously isnt using a gas reactor expand or a reaper expand.
Anyway miss understandings happen but there is no need to behaive like a tool as all I did was trying to help.
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Just hit masters and im losing all my games cause i dont know what build to do vs zerg and terran i really enjoy timing attacks and builds where its pretty well drawn out for me what are some
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