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Canada8159 Posts
On November 26 2013 00:42 cptjibberjabber wrote:
guys I need a proper build order for TvP and TvZ. in TvP I open 12 gas reaper expand, then 3 rax, but after that I don't know what to spend my money on. Sometimes I get a quick factory, sometimes I get stim, but it doesn't all line up the way it should.
Those builds in the opening post seem to be outdated. They're from february 2013, on maps like daybreak and ohana, using widow mine drops that still have the old damage...
In TvP I CC first into 2 rax
In TvZ I CC first into rax gas
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How do I stop (or even recognize) a blink stalker all in?
I lose to this every time.
I scout and I can't recognize it - or to be more accurate, I can't guarantee it's coming because I feel like so many Protoss builds look the same. I scout and usually my first SCV is killed by a stalker, which isn't really a sign of anything because they always seem to make a stalker first. At this point maybe I saw double gas... OK. So that could be oracles, 3 gate robo, 4 gate with 2 gas (see a lot of those), DT rush, blink stalker rush, etc.
So I scan later. I see 3 gates (if I'm lucky and they haven't spread everything well). That could be 3 gate robo, 3 gate blink stalker, 3 gate DT expand. I just don't know.
I try to scout, it's denied. I don't see an expo, I know something is coming - but what?
And when it is 3 gate blink stalker - they always seem to have more than I do.
I suck so hard. I want to get better at Terran - I just have no idea what I'm doing. If I can survive early/mid game I usually do well as Terran. I can macro late game really well. Early and mid though, I'm a joke.
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On November 26 2013 04:16 Mjolnir wrote:How do I stop (or even recognize) a blink stalker all in? I lose to this every time. I scout and I can't recognize it - or to be more accurate, I can't guarantee it's coming because I feel like so many Protoss builds look the same. I scout and usually my first SCV is killed by a stalker, which isn't really a sign of anything because they always seem to make a stalker first. At this point maybe I saw double gas... OK. So that could be oracles, 3 gate robo, 4 gate with 2 gas (see a lot of those), DT rush, blink stalker rush, etc. So I scan later. I see 3 gates (if I'm lucky and they haven't spread everything well). That could be 3 gate robo, 3 gate blink stalker, 3 gate DT expand. I just don't know. I try to scout, it's denied. I don't see an expo, I know something is coming - but what? And when it is 3 gate blink stalker - they always seem to have more than I do. I suck so hard. I want to get better at Terran - I just have no idea what I'm doing. If I can survive early/mid game I usually do well as Terran. I can macro late game really well. Early and mid though, I'm a joke.
I always recognized it and yet always lost lol.
It will be interesting what people will have to say about it, because when I asked there was not much of advices 
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On November 26 2013 04:16 Mjolnir wrote:How do I stop (or even recognize) a blink stalker all in? I lose to this every time. I scout and I can't recognize it - or to be more accurate, I can't guarantee it's coming because I feel like so many Protoss builds look the same. I scout and usually my first SCV is killed by a stalker, which isn't really a sign of anything because they always seem to make a stalker first. At this point maybe I saw double gas... OK. So that could be oracles, 3 gate robo, 4 gate with 2 gas (see a lot of those), DT rush, blink stalker rush, etc. So I scan later. I see 3 gates (if I'm lucky and they haven't spread everything well). That could be 3 gate robo, 3 gate blink stalker, 3 gate DT expand. I just don't know. I try to scout, it's denied. I don't see an expo, I know something is coming - but what? And when it is 3 gate blink stalker - they always seem to have more than I do. I suck so hard. I want to get better at Terran - I just have no idea what I'm doing. If I can survive early/mid game I usually do well as Terran. I can macro late game really well. Early and mid though, I'm a joke.
I think you should learn a reaper opening. Reapers are crazy good at scouting early game. Generally seeing a twilight council = blink all in. If you don't see the twilight council, it's still pretty simple to tell, you need to keep trying to poke around to either try to see if he hasn't put an expo down, and also check sentry counts. If all he's making is stalkers and seems to have one in every corner of his base with no expo, he's hiding something, and it's likely a blink all in or proxy oracle (scout the obvious spots in maps, watch every replay you play against this to see where toss puts it), although with blink all-in he will have more stalkers so that's a tell.
At this point you have to hold with good bunker placements and micro/scvs. If you can kill the mamma core, it's basically GG, though that is hard to do against a good toss. Don't try to push into time warps if you can. It's really a lot about bunkers placement. If you have a factory down, make a widow mine or two, they are cheap and can do WONDERS against this... not every low/mid level toss can blink perfectly away from mine shots.
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On November 26 2013 04:16 Mjolnir wrote:How do I stop (or even recognize) a blink stalker all in? I lose to this every time. I scout and I can't recognize it - or to be more accurate, I can't guarantee it's coming because I feel like so many Protoss builds look the same. I scout and usually my first SCV is killed by a stalker, which isn't really a sign of anything because they always seem to make a stalker first. At this point maybe I saw double gas... OK. So that could be oracles, 3 gate robo, 4 gate with 2 gas (see a lot of those), DT rush, blink stalker rush, etc. So I scan later. I see 3 gates (if I'm lucky and they haven't spread everything well). That could be 3 gate robo, 3 gate blink stalker, 3 gate DT expand. I just don't know. I try to scout, it's denied. I don't see an expo, I know something is coming - but what? And when it is 3 gate blink stalker - they always seem to have more than I do. I suck so hard. I want to get better at Terran - I just have no idea what I'm doing. If I can survive early/mid game I usually do well as Terran. I can macro late game really well. Early and mid though, I'm a joke.
You can often manage to figure out the blinkstalker play even without a reaper, but you need to read into little nuances in his build. For instance:
If he chronoboosts warpgate more than once then he is going for a gateway attack, so only bunker at the natural. If he has 2 pylons in the main and a late 3rd pylon or not one at all, send out 2 workers to check all the proxy positions, and if you don't find one, but there isn't an expansion, its going to be some kind of non-unit producing structure like twilight council/dark shrine.
If he builds stalker/mothership core early, then he isn't likely to be proxying tech. It's probably a gateway attack or late tech in his main. You can guess where it is going to be located based on any pylons in the corners, which you can try to scan later.
And if there is no expo you have probably narrowed it down by now to either dark templar, stargate, robo attack, or blink stalkers. You can take a guess at which it is if you manage to scout his army moving out (which you should always try to do), and if it's stalkers then it is blink, mostly zealot then it's going to be stargate or robo which is fine because the response is the same: 4 bunkers at the natural.
At this point, if you still have no idea what it is, be ready to retreat to the main to 2-3 bunkers there, and make sure to have an scv out on the map to block his nat with an engineering bay if he tries to contain you with sentries. Build a turret someplace. You should be able to survive to get your medivacs at that point, and retake your natural and be in a comfortable position.
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The problem with Blink are maps that don't allow you to defend all you base even with bunkers everywhere. It's painful and Mapmakers should consider the huge difficulty about holding blink on Younsu or Frost or whatever.
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On November 26 2013 05:39 Faust852 wrote:
The problem with Blink are maps that don't allow you to defend all you base even with bunkers everywhere. It's painful and Mapmakers should consider the huge difficulty about holding blink on Younsu or Frost or whatever.
Yep. That's why sometimes it's a must to lift out your natural expo and stay on 1 base with 2 OC till you get out a decent number of MMM and maybe tanks. Yet this can do enough indirect damage that protoss may just expand and be ahead while having blink during mid game to prevent drops damage.
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On November 25 2013 14:30 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 08:07 King Fog wrote:
TvP below fucking Korean GM level is nothing but pure cancer, what the fuck is this? it's in NO way balanced, holy fucking shit, I've always known Toss is a cancerous race due to shitty game design from the very beginning of WoL-beta, but the state of the game today is completely fucking retarded. Every toss unit is a fucking joke, but MSC and HT has to take the fucking prize. how the actual fuck do I win TvP? Sometimes I beat them with an early push but 85% of the time a photon overcharge is enough to deal with 25 Marines and 1-2 siege tanks.
/rant
User was warned for this post Can assure you it stays about that good at KR GM level.
User gets warned for original post. Iaguz agrees. no warning. Teamliquid everyone.
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On November 26 2013 06:05 VoidRender wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 14:30 iaguz wrote:On November 25 2013 08:07 King Fog wrote:
TvP below fucking Korean GM level is nothing but pure cancer, what the fuck is this? it's in NO way balanced, holy fucking shit, I've always known Toss is a cancerous race due to shitty game design from the very beginning of WoL-beta, but the state of the game today is completely fucking retarded. Every toss unit is a fucking joke, but MSC and HT has to take the fucking prize. how the actual fuck do I win TvP? Sometimes I beat them with an early push but 85% of the time a photon overcharge is enough to deal with 25 Marines and 1-2 siege tanks.
/rant
User was warned for this post Can assure you it stays about that good at KR GM level. User gets warned for original post. Iaguz agrees. no warning. Teamliquid everyone.
I'm pretty sure iaguz has been KR GM himself, so theres that.
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On November 26 2013 06:14 Bagi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 06:05 VoidRender wrote:On November 25 2013 14:30 iaguz wrote:On November 25 2013 08:07 King Fog wrote:
TvP below fucking Korean GM level is nothing but pure cancer, what the fuck is this? it's in NO way balanced, holy fucking shit, I've always known Toss is a cancerous race due to shitty game design from the very beginning of WoL-beta, but the state of the game today is completely fucking retarded. Every toss unit is a fucking joke, but MSC and HT has to take the fucking prize. how the actual fuck do I win TvP? Sometimes I beat them with an early push but 85% of the time a photon overcharge is enough to deal with 25 Marines and 1-2 siege tanks.
/rant
User was warned for this post Can assure you it stays about that good at KR GM level. User gets warned for original post. Iaguz agrees. no warning. Teamliquid everyone. I'm pretty sure iaguz has been KR GM himself, so theres that.
There's also a big difference when it comes to how you go about saying something. Saying a unit/ability is really good at GM level is far less offensive than that rant.
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User gets warned for original post. Iaguz agrees. no warning. Teamliquid everyone.
Definitely about the way the OP said it LOL. Whether its true or not you don't need to curse that much I don't think blink stalker is as hard as everyone seems to think it is.... I'm at the point that I pray for an all in when I play protoss as it makes it possible to just hardcoutner it and just outwright win the game as I have multiple times this season LOL It's late game that I hate playing though I can I just HATE HATE HATE it. Early to Mid game i feel quite comfortable.
Fighting blink stalkers is best done by putting 1 bunker at nat putting the rest of your army in your main where it is most optimum for them to blink to. With 1 Bunker in a key location in the main. If you decide to use widow mines make sure they arent on the low ground but in a position that if they blinked up into your main they don't have blink to dodge teh missle.....
The absolute biggest thing is using the bunkers to save as MANY units as possible while teching to medivacs which is the true counter Meds + Stim + Marauder
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The problem I have is when they play the contain game and can sit back comfortably on two base teching to whatever the hell they want. I feel real far behind in that game and applying any aggression to the protoss once medivacs are out when they are on 2 base is really difficult.
I don't even bother defending the low ground against blink anymore
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On November 25 2013 22:20 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 17:27 saaaa wrote:
What is the otimal response with a 2 reaper openig against a 2 rax reaper opening?
Is this a bo loss because i loss nearly all matches against this with my 2 reaper FE opening.
thx Yes, it's a build order loss. You have to deviate and get a Reactor after the first Reaper to defend with Marines.
Most of the Time they denied my SCV scouting with a fast 2nd depot to wall off. In this case i have to assume he is going 2 rax reaper or can i scout this in a other way?
I normally send my SCV at around 12 Supply after building my Gas.
thx dwf <3
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OK, last question and I'll leave you guys alone (for a while).
TvZ. I'm at a loss here. I posted a question about this before and the answers I got helped a bit but I have some additional issues that require assistance.
1. I'm able to defend most early pressure now, this is a big deal for me because I used to lose to a lot of all ins. My problem now is countering. If I crush the early aggression, do I counter attack or do I mass up? If I mass up, how long do I wait? Do I wait for +1/+1 and go? Do I expand again? I know every game is different but I feel really weak mid game... which leads me to:
2. What is the "ideal" mid game composition? Lately I've been trying to make the new tanks work. I still feel like I get overwhelmed with sheer numbers. MMT just gets rolled by sling/bane/muta a-move - and I don't even mean a-move in a derogatory fashion. It's just what works. I don't feel the new tank firing speed is all it's meant to be. Mines don't seem to help too much either. If I go MMMM now, it seems like they can do the same thing - overwhelm me and I'm borked. If I trade efficiently, they reinforce and wipe me out the next go round. I think I macro decently late game but something is missing mid game because I get rolled if I try to push out.
3. Because of the above, I'm starting to turtle more. I know I can macro well late game and that's when I'll try to make my move (three base, push out, get a fourth and just keep the pressure on.) However, I've run into a lot of Ultralisks now that I'm not dying early or mid. I have no idea how to stop these. Tanks don't seem to do much, MMMM with kiting seems to be "OKish." I can accept that my micro is not up to par and needs work if the answers are to use MMMM and or tanks. I just want to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.
4. If I should be more aggressive mid-game, what sort of timings do you guys generally look for? After they take a third? Try to deny their fourth? Before Hive? During Hive? Someone said a while ago not to bother with early aggression (hellions, etc.) since Zergs are so good at shutting it down now. I feel like ignoring that pressure just allows them to drone like crazy which leads to the poor trades for me mid game? Thoughts?
5. Anyone have an ace up their sleeve they'd like to share with regard to dealing with the overwhelming numbers mid/late game? I know to use chokes, try to have tanks kill banes, etc. Anyone have replays or VODs that a newb like myself can look to for some clarity?
Sorry for all the questions - hopefully they help others as well!
Thanks in advance!
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On November 26 2013 11:10 Mjolnir wrote:
OK, last question and I'll leave you guys alone (for a while).
TvZ. I'm at a loss here. I posted a question about this before and the answers I got helped a bit but I have some additional issues that require assistance.
1. I'm able to defend most early pressure now, this is a big deal for me because I used to lose to a lot of all ins. My problem now is countering. If I crush the early aggression, do I counter attack or do I mass up? If I mass up, how long do I wait? Do I wait for +1/+1 and go? Do I expand again? I know every game is different but I feel really weak mid game... which leads me to:
2. What is the "ideal" mid game composition? Lately I've been trying to make the new tanks work. I still feel like I get overwhelmed with sheer numbers. MMT just gets rolled by sling/bane/muta a-move - and I don't even mean a-move in a derogatory fashion. It's just what works. I don't feel the new tank firing speed is all it's meant to be. Mines don't seem to help too much either. If I go MMMM now, it seems like they can do the same thing - overwhelm me and I'm borked. If I trade efficiently, they reinforce and wipe me out the next go round. I think I macro decently late game but something is missing mid game because I get rolled if I try to push out.
3. Because of the above, I'm starting to turtle more. I know I can macro well late game and that's when I'll try to make my move (three base, push out, get a fourth and just keep the pressure on.) However, I've run into a lot of Ultralisks now that I'm not dying early or mid. I have no idea how to stop these. Tanks don't seem to do much, MMMM with kiting seems to be "OKish." I can accept that my micro is not up to par and needs work if the answers are to use MMMM and or tanks. I just want to make sure I'm getting the right stuff.
4. If I should be more aggressive mid-game, what sort of timings do you guys generally look for? After they take a third? Try to deny their fourth? Before Hive? During Hive? Someone said a while ago not to bother with early aggression (hellions, etc.) since Zergs are so good at shutting it down now. I feel like ignoring that pressure just allows them to drone like crazy which leads to the poor trades for me mid game? Thoughts?
5. Anyone have an ace up their sleeve they'd like to share with regard to dealing with the overwhelming numbers mid/late game? I know to use chokes, try to have tanks kill banes, etc. Anyone have replays or VODs that a newb like myself can look to for some clarity?
Sorry for all the questions - hopefully they help others as well!
Thanks in advance!
Something I have seen several terran pros do and have tried myself to great success is incorporating a lot of thors against ultras, somewhere in the range of 3-5. The logic behind this is that in midgame, marauders are good tanks, as they can absorb lots of baneling and ling damage, so you usually want to position your marines behind them. But in lategame vs. ultralisks, marauders get chewed up just as much as marines when fungaled and cleaved, so you need a new tank. A couple thors are great for this, because they are too big to take ultra splash damage, and if you position correctly in any kind of choke the thors will block off a lot of area so the ling/bling will be funneled through a small gap. They also have the added benefit of doing a lot of damage to single units (like ultras) and demolishing clumps of mutas. You can use them the same way you do marauders in midgame, just pull behind them and split when you need to.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the counter to the blink stalker build is to pull back to the main, use the second cc to over-saturate the main, and to get siege tanks out of the factory to zone out stalkers in you base. You obviously also add a bunker or two to tank some damage, and get stim and medivacs asap.
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On November 26 2013 13:21 Survivor61316 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the counter to the blink stalker build is to pull back to the main, use the second cc to over-saturate the main, and to get siege tanks out of the factory to zone out stalkers in you base. You obviously also add a bunker or two to tank some damage, and get stim and medivacs asap.
Only in the case where you start with an early factory. Anyway yes, the best answer is staying in your main base and putting bunker in the potential blink point, though it might be hard on some maps.
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On November 26 2013 13:21 Survivor61316 wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that the counter to the blink stalker build is to pull back to the main, use the second cc to over-saturate the main, and to get siege tanks out of the factory to zone out stalkers in you base. You obviously also add a bunker or two to tank some damage, and get stim and medivacs asap.
Depends on the map, but it's certainly safer to retreat to the high ground. Then the best 'counter' is to try snipe the mothership core.
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On November 26 2013 07:43 saaaa wrote:Show nested quote +On November 25 2013 22:20 TheDwf wrote:On November 25 2013 17:27 saaaa wrote:
What is the otimal response with a 2 reaper openig against a 2 rax reaper opening?
Is this a bo loss because i loss nearly all matches against this with my 2 reaper FE opening.
thx Yes, it's a build order loss. You have to deviate and get a Reactor after the first Reaper to defend with Marines. Most of the Time they denied my SCV scouting with a fast 2nd depot to wall off. In this case i have to assume he is going 2 rax reaper or can i scout this in a other way? I normally send my SCV at around 12 Supply after building my Gas. thx dwf <3
As someone who does 2 rax reaper quite a lot, they simply won't have money to full wall off in time for a 14 supply scout and build 2 raxes. So if they have a full wall you can assume its 1 rax reaper (if they do go reaper ofc).
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On November 26 2013 00:42 cptjibberjabber wrote:
guys I need a proper build order for TvP and TvZ. in TvP I open 12 gas reaper expand, then 3 rax, but after that I don't know what to spend my money on. Sometimes I get a quick factory, sometimes I get stim, but it doesn't all line up the way it should.
Those builds in the opening post seem to be outdated. They're from february 2013, on maps like daybreak and ohana, using widow mine drops that still have the old damage...
Most of them are not. The Mine drops still work. I will try to update this part with more recent examples soon.
On November 26 2013 18:06 Clarty wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2013 07:43 saaaa wrote:On November 25 2013 22:20 TheDwf wrote:On November 25 2013 17:27 saaaa wrote:
What is the otimal response with a 2 reaper openig against a 2 rax reaper opening?
Is this a bo loss because i loss nearly all matches against this with my 2 reaper FE opening.
thx Yes, it's a build order loss. You have to deviate and get a Reactor after the first Reaper to defend with Marines. Most of the Time they denied my SCV scouting with a fast 2nd depot to wall off. In this case i have to assume he is going 2 rax reaper or can i scout this in a other way? I normally send my SCV at around 12 Supply after building my Gas. thx dwf <3 As someone who does 2 rax reaper quite a lot, they simply won't have money to full wall off in time for a 14 supply scout and build 2 raxes. So if they have a full wall you can assume its 1 rax reaper (if they do go reaper ofc).
Yes, but some 2 rax reapers variants get the second rax after the OC, so they can wall in time.
@saaaa, yes, you have to account for the possibility if you don't see a Marine first.
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